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GXR/A12 vs GF1
- Thread starter barjohn
- Start date
kevinparis
Member
Terry
New member
John,
My question goes deeper than the crops. The original exposures between the two cameras weren't matched. That in and of itself with throw off all of the comparisons. The GF1 was already over exposed. From there it only makes sense that there is less highlight room for recovery and you don't have enough to match the GXR. Also, are you metering with the full matrix metering? center weight? are both cameras set up similarly.
I understand your desire to be able to "set it and forget it" and have the camera be able to get the proper exposure. I'm simply trying to compare the cameras where the first step is looking at matched exposure.
Ricoh makes my favorite UI and there are things I loved about my GRD II. If the GXR is really head and shoulders ahead I would consider one. Still sounds like they have some firmware to work out....which doesn't bother me much because they do updates to cameras well past any manufacturer I've seen.
My question goes deeper than the crops. The original exposures between the two cameras weren't matched. That in and of itself with throw off all of the comparisons. The GF1 was already over exposed. From there it only makes sense that there is less highlight room for recovery and you don't have enough to match the GXR. Also, are you metering with the full matrix metering? center weight? are both cameras set up similarly.
I understand your desire to be able to "set it and forget it" and have the camera be able to get the proper exposure. I'm simply trying to compare the cameras where the first step is looking at matched exposure.
Ricoh makes my favorite UI and there are things I loved about my GRD II. If the GXR is really head and shoulders ahead I would consider one. Still sounds like they have some firmware to work out....which doesn't bother me much because they do updates to cameras well past any manufacturer I've seen.
barjohn
New member
Pellicle, thanks.
Kevin, I mean hold down the control key and scroll the wheel to Zoom the image. I haven't seen any negative effects from this except eventually it will pixelate too.
Terry, I was using area exposure for both cameras but today I will use the 20mm lens and match exposure or if needed on the GF1 I will add compensation (looks like we will have another sunny day here). I should note that I was looking at the histograms when I was shooting and they looked ok on both cameras but seeing overexposure peeks is not easy on the histograms when they form a pretty normal exposure curve in the VF. The only reason I used the 14-45 lens was to try and match focal length.
Finally, I will write Ricoh today to ask about the issues that I have seen so far and to ask about when one might expect a fix. All of the issues I have seen center around focusing. Image quality is really good and I am seeing it first hand on my calibrated iMac 24.
The focus issues are (in order of importance):
1. The frame freezing while it is trying to focus. This really makes focusing on moving subjects difficult and is very irritating as the image suddenly jumps. Once it thinks it has focus the image motion continues but as I fond yesterday with subjects moving toward me or away from me, the camera continued to indicate it was in focus (little square green) but I knew it wasn't.
2. Any speed improvement to the AF would be very beneficial for moving subjects, otherwise you only have a camera that works well for still images or posed shots (I am not that good at zone focus shooting, especially with a 50mm effective lens even stopped down to f5.6).
3. Turn on the AF assist light at higher light levels (at a minimum at the light level that the GF1 turns its on. There is a large gap between light levels that are too low for the camera to find focus and low enough for the AF assist light and it finds focus fine.
4. Manual focus needs to improve the servo so it is: (a) smoother and less jumpy and (b) there is no perceptible lag between the adjustment and what is seen by the photographer. This lag makes it very difficult to find the focus point.
5. Give us greater center magnification to assist with MF. The magnification is just not enough.
If Ricoh can fix these issues they have a real winner in my opinion (assuming that they will expand the lensor line to add some additional primes).
Kevin, I mean hold down the control key and scroll the wheel to Zoom the image. I haven't seen any negative effects from this except eventually it will pixelate too.
Terry, I was using area exposure for both cameras but today I will use the 20mm lens and match exposure or if needed on the GF1 I will add compensation (looks like we will have another sunny day here). I should note that I was looking at the histograms when I was shooting and they looked ok on both cameras but seeing overexposure peeks is not easy on the histograms when they form a pretty normal exposure curve in the VF. The only reason I used the 14-45 lens was to try and match focal length.
Finally, I will write Ricoh today to ask about the issues that I have seen so far and to ask about when one might expect a fix. All of the issues I have seen center around focusing. Image quality is really good and I am seeing it first hand on my calibrated iMac 24.
The focus issues are (in order of importance):
1. The frame freezing while it is trying to focus. This really makes focusing on moving subjects difficult and is very irritating as the image suddenly jumps. Once it thinks it has focus the image motion continues but as I fond yesterday with subjects moving toward me or away from me, the camera continued to indicate it was in focus (little square green) but I knew it wasn't.
2. Any speed improvement to the AF would be very beneficial for moving subjects, otherwise you only have a camera that works well for still images or posed shots (I am not that good at zone focus shooting, especially with a 50mm effective lens even stopped down to f5.6).
3. Turn on the AF assist light at higher light levels (at a minimum at the light level that the GF1 turns its on. There is a large gap between light levels that are too low for the camera to find focus and low enough for the AF assist light and it finds focus fine.
4. Manual focus needs to improve the servo so it is: (a) smoother and less jumpy and (b) there is no perceptible lag between the adjustment and what is seen by the photographer. This lag makes it very difficult to find the focus point.
5. Give us greater center magnification to assist with MF. The magnification is just not enough.
If Ricoh can fix these issues they have a real winner in my opinion (assuming that they will expand the lensor line to add some additional primes).
V
Vivek
Guest
John, It (your posts) reads like the Samsung NX is more worth bothering about.
barjohn
New member
Vivek, I have been watching the NX but so far the sample images have not shown much in the way of IQ. This could change as the images are from early beta versions. I know they claim fast AF and I like the OLED for the display. Getting lens sizes down with the larger sensor is one of the key issues or the benefit of smaller bodies is lost. I think they missed a real opportunity by not including in body image stabilization and an initial set of primes beyond the one pancake. making high quality zooms is difficult enough, then throw in making them small without serious optical compromises and it is really challenging and probably expensive too. If rumors of Panasonic's new 4/3rds sensor are true and they offer it in a new model with built in EVF it could change the ball game as it may be some time before we see a similar sensor available in APS-C.
I should add, that the jury is still out on the GXR and to a large extent will depend on Ricoh's response. I hear they have a firmware upgrade just about ready for release. We will see.
I should add, that the jury is still out on the GXR and to a large extent will depend on Ricoh's response. I hear they have a firmware upgrade just about ready for release. We will see.
V
Vivek
Guest
John, Could you post any links to the new sensor rumors from Mat$hu$hita?
barjohn
New member
Here it is. Lower right hand on the page:
http://43rumors.com/
Also see new Panasonic 14mm f2.8 pancake.
http://43rumors.com/
Also see new Panasonic 14mm f2.8 pancake.
Terry
New member
I'm pretty sure a few years ago they completely dropped that name and only use Panasonic now.
V
Vivek
Guest
John, Thanks. Back illuminated (if true) is very welcome.
Terry, AFAIK (and I know very little of anything), the sensors are made by Matsu$hita Electric Co. Ltd.
Terry, AFAIK (and I know very little of anything), the sensors are made by Matsu$hita Electric Co. Ltd.
Terry
New member
In the investment management world we need to remember these things in order to buy the right stocks!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panasonic_Corporation
barjohn
New member
Don't crucify me on this post. It was done for fun. I was looking at an M8 shot of the same area of my back yard ( a gulf course) shot at ISO 640 with the 28/2.8 ASPH lens and while they were not taken at the same time and the colors are different, it gives a comparison against a high quality standard in lens and sensor. The M8 shot is on the left.
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andrewteee
New member
I have been using the GXR for a couple of days now, so pardon my "early" reactions. The focus issues that John points are indeed all true. As it stands now the GXR is not a good moving subject camera in terms of fast focus and focus tracking. The GRD(3) is not either, except for snap focus, but the more limited DoF in the GXR makes this feature more challenging to use (I have not tried to use it much yet). It does not have a focus "tracking" capability.
However, as John also points out the IQ is stellar and the dynamic range in the DNGs is very workable. It reminds me a lot of the Sigma DP cameras, with their detail capabilities and dynamic range. You could push those files and retrieve a lot of shadow and highlight detail. The still life and landscape imagery I've shot so far with the GXR have been absolutely beautiful (I've been focused on B&W for now). No "project" work yet, just taking shots here and there as opps present themselves. People shots are also beautiful with an almost "Leica'esque" clarity and presence to them.
I'm not a pixel-peeper, I look at the gestalt of an image, and in this regard the GXR is so far more pleasing than the E-P2 in terms of absolute IQ. That said, I still absolutely love my E-P2. I just had some color E-P2 prints made and they are beautiful. The Panasonic 20mm lens is wonderful.
With the GXR I'm still getting re-used to the 50mm focal length. I used to love it when I had my Canon 50L, but over the past year I have become more used to the 28-40mm focal lengths.
I still have reservations about the GXR as a system. And I'd like to see more lens options sooner rather than later, primarily something wider than 50mm.
The GXR/A12 camera is expensive and not for everyone. But I believe it is unique in terms of IQ and for the Ricoh aficionados it is worth the effort to evaluate. I really like the Ricoh camera and UI design, and find them to be easily and quickly usable. And the results in both small sensor and large sensor speak poetry to my photographic eye.
I, too, realize this is an m4/3s forum, and that is still my primary camera, but the GXR fits into the same category (at least with the A12 unit), and is worthy of comparative commentary. Right now there is no Ricoh forum on the GetDPI forums (I'd love to see one). To me, Ricoh is not an "Other" camera ; )
However, as John also points out the IQ is stellar and the dynamic range in the DNGs is very workable. It reminds me a lot of the Sigma DP cameras, with their detail capabilities and dynamic range. You could push those files and retrieve a lot of shadow and highlight detail. The still life and landscape imagery I've shot so far with the GXR have been absolutely beautiful (I've been focused on B&W for now). No "project" work yet, just taking shots here and there as opps present themselves. People shots are also beautiful with an almost "Leica'esque" clarity and presence to them.
I'm not a pixel-peeper, I look at the gestalt of an image, and in this regard the GXR is so far more pleasing than the E-P2 in terms of absolute IQ. That said, I still absolutely love my E-P2. I just had some color E-P2 prints made and they are beautiful. The Panasonic 20mm lens is wonderful.
With the GXR I'm still getting re-used to the 50mm focal length. I used to love it when I had my Canon 50L, but over the past year I have become more used to the 28-40mm focal lengths.
I still have reservations about the GXR as a system. And I'd like to see more lens options sooner rather than later, primarily something wider than 50mm.
The GXR/A12 camera is expensive and not for everyone. But I believe it is unique in terms of IQ and for the Ricoh aficionados it is worth the effort to evaluate. I really like the Ricoh camera and UI design, and find them to be easily and quickly usable. And the results in both small sensor and large sensor speak poetry to my photographic eye.
I, too, realize this is an m4/3s forum, and that is still my primary camera, but the GXR fits into the same category (at least with the A12 unit), and is worthy of comparative commentary. Right now there is no Ricoh forum on the GetDPI forums (I'd love to see one). To me, Ricoh is not an "Other" camera ; )
pellicle
New member
John
thanks for all your info on this
The lack of lenses or zoom is the real killer for me ... like really, who buys cameras like GS690's anymore?
I really just don't know what they were thinking with this camera ... like what possible market could it have (except the curious)?
thanks for all your info on this
this is pretty much the summary of a friend of mine in Japan who picked one up to play with it in Yodobashi when it first appeared. He (a G1 owner) decided quite quickly that it was a lame duck and subsequently lost interest.
The lack of lenses or zoom is the real killer for me ... like really, who buys cameras like GS690's anymore?
I really just don't know what they were thinking with this camera ... like what possible market could it have (except the curious)?
V
Vivek
Guest
At least I did not and I did not intend to, unless you are identifying yourself with GXR performance.
Terry, That was to reassure the financial markets that I am no way connected to them and there is no danger to myself or anyone else related to investments.:ROTFL:
(I do know one thing for certain that I am not a "Lumix Photographer" as a certain brand would like to brand some using some brand name cameras.
)The GXR looks interesting, seems like they need to fine-tune some features and functionality. The main strike against it from my perspective is there really is only a single lens (the 50mm equivalent.) The only other lens has a tiny sensor.
Besides the size differences, the workflow for the CCD may be entirely different than the workflow for the CMOS. It's time-consuming enough for me to learn the idiosyncrasies of a single sensor.
There will never be as many lens options for the GXR as with other systems.
Besides the size differences, the workflow for the CCD may be entirely different than the workflow for the CMOS. It's time-consuming enough for me to learn the idiosyncrasies of a single sensor.
There will never be as many lens options for the GXR as with other systems.
barjohn
New member
Here is a comparison using the 20mm pancake. I set the GF1 to -1/3 stop, the aperture was set to f3.5 on both cameras and ISO 200. The images are much closer but I still see more detail in the GXR images. These are straight from the camera with default LR 3 beta values. No post processing. In the first set the GF1 selected a shutter speed of 1/2500th and the GXR selected 1/1600th. In the second set the GF1 selected 1/2000th and the GXR selected 1/1500th.
As for color accuracy, the GXR looks closer to what the eye perceives the colors to be in this bright sunny day.
As for color accuracy, the GXR looks closer to what the eye perceives the colors to be in this bright sunny day.
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W
wbrandsma
Guest
John, thank you for your first test and also confirming some of the issues you've mentioned. The issues with the AF and the freezing of the screen or EVF with moving subject have already been mentioned by previous users/testers of the GXR like Pavel Kudrys of Ricohforum, Cristian Sorega (Ricoh GR-Diary) and also me. Unfortunately none of the serious review sites did really mention it.
Since you stay in California I have a request for you regarding zone focusing. In the couple of days I had a test sample in December the camera had a strange behavior in freezing temperatures. Every time I tried to zone focus, the zone focus point is always off. The background was in focus, but the intended focal region was off focus. So try to focus at 3 meters for instance and set the aperture at f/5.6 or f/8 and try to photograph a subject at the same distance.
With fast moving subjects did you notice the rolling shutter of the sensor yet? I thought it was pretty annoying.
We have already requested a focus limiter for the A12 lens to avoid the long AF travel when it tries to find a focus point with less contrast. End we also requested a solution in a firmware fix for the problems you've mentioned with the AF.
The more people mention some of these issues the better and hopefully Ricoh will listen and fix it asap. Still for me this system has a lot of uncertainties. The A12 macro lens is mostly targeted to the Japanese market which I really don't understand, because they want to increase their sales outside Japan.
Since you stay in California I have a request for you regarding zone focusing. In the couple of days I had a test sample in December the camera had a strange behavior in freezing temperatures. Every time I tried to zone focus, the zone focus point is always off. The background was in focus, but the intended focal region was off focus. So try to focus at 3 meters for instance and set the aperture at f/5.6 or f/8 and try to photograph a subject at the same distance.
With fast moving subjects did you notice the rolling shutter of the sensor yet? I thought it was pretty annoying.
We have already requested a focus limiter for the A12 lens to avoid the long AF travel when it tries to find a focus point with less contrast. End we also requested a solution in a firmware fix for the problems you've mentioned with the AF.
The more people mention some of these issues the better and hopefully Ricoh will listen and fix it asap. Still for me this system has a lot of uncertainties. The A12 macro lens is mostly targeted to the Japanese market which I really don't understand, because they want to increase their sales outside Japan.