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Thread: GXR/A12 vs GF1

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Tomorrow I will be getting my GXR with A12 and EVF to compare to the GF1 that I have. I will post my experiences as I go along. Maybe it will help others contemplating one or the other. We all know about the slow AF of the GXR but how does it effect everyday use. I like to shoot candids so it may not work for me. I will try and shoot comparable images for comparison and post those with my thoughts.

    The end result will be one will stay and one will be sold.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    When I bought into micro 4/3 it was because of the huge variety of lens options. Bodies/sensors will improve, but the lens investment lives on. Not so with the GXR...

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    Senior Member Y.B.Hudson III's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Ricoh's questionable quality control and the USA warranty service contractor are deal killers for me.
    Last edited by Y.B.Hudson III; 7th January 2010 at 21:55. Reason: quality control...spelling

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    but John, don't be discouraged ... some of us want to hear your experiences!

    say, if your GF goes on the market, does it come with the 20mm?

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    m4/3rds is a big hit because of the interchangeable lens possibility in a mirrorless cam system.

    The Samsung NX (and others in the future) would also be similarly placed.

    GXR and such are fixed lens P&S cams. Can't understand why it should be modular in this fashion at all.

    Whether you keep one body over the other, John, is your prerogative. Not many of us would even consider buying a GXR or an X1, etc.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    I fully understand all of the points being made. It would be very helpful if Ricoh were to provide a roadmap for the future which they seem to be reluctant to do. However, they may choose to, or be forced to, offer an APS-C module with interchangeable lens mount which would change the entire picture. The NX sample images on the DPR Samsung thread are a real mixed bag so far. The thread comparing ISO cropping's against the GF1 don't reveal as much image detail as the GF1 with far too much in camera smoothing. While the GF1 shows more noise there is also much more detail throughout the range.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    GXR and such are fixed lens P&S cams. Can't understand why it should be modular in this fashion at all.
    There is no good technical reason, it's simply money.

    With an interchangeable lens system, the lenses hold value while the body depreciates to near zero. A new body generates no new lens income for the OEM. Tying the sensor to the lens is brilliant, but not for photographic reasons.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Robert, Frankly, I am one of those (perhaps very few) who do not consider lenses/gear as some sort of hidden assets to be cashed later.

    If something is going to be useful now then it is worth the bother.

    As I understand, there is nothing earth shattering about the Ricoh GXR.
    It probably has an aesthetic and cosmetic appeal to some who want something compact and elegant.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    The NX sample images on the DPR Samsung thread are a real mixed bag so far. The thread comparing ISO cropping's against the GF1 don't reveal as much image detail as the GF1 with far too much in camera smoothing. While the GF1 shows more noise there is also much more detail throughout the range.
    These are very valid points, John. Dp revs threads- I don't read them. I take your words for it.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Robert, Frankly, I am one of those (perhaps very few) who do not consider lenses/gear as some sort of hidden assets to be cashed later.

    If something is going to be useful now then it is worth the bother.
    This isn't to say the GXR won't be useful, just that this sensor/lens combination isn't really a solution to anything that needed to be solved, other than the self-interest of Ricoh.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    For a small company that wants to keep up with technology there are some advantages to this approach. As new sensors are developed, the company can focus on just the lens/sensor combination or just adding a new sensor if a module that allows interchangeable lenses is developed, and a standard interface to the body so the development time and cost is reduced and it can be brought to market faster without the cost to develop the body and user interface.

    However, to make this approach work, the body has to be really well thought out and engineered so that it can support technologies that are in the R&D pipeline but have not seen the light of day yet. Whether Ricoh accomplished such a feat remains to be seen.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Hmm. If Ricoh has that much difficulty designing a new housing or migrating a user interface from one model to the next...I have doubts they'll be able to engineer a body housing that supports future technologies.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    To have the system truly upgradable, they'd need to have an "all singing, all dancing" body, both hardware and firmware capable. Otherwise, you'll have to change it out at some point to implement the capabilities that the evolving lens side brings to the table.

    Mind you, Ricoh really nailed the physical interface some time ago.

    Cheers,

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    I have a GXR/A12 arriving today as well. As a big fan of the GRD cameras I had to try it. I'm smitten with the E-P2, but had to give the Ricoh a shot as well. I can return it if it does not please, but the few samples I've seen have looked good to my eye. The focal length and macro ability will fit my style.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    As anyone that works in the computer field knows, designing a good flexible standard interface is a major challenge. If Ricoh succeeded here, then it is far easier and quicker to design a new sub-assembly that uses the interface than to design a completely new and integrated system. Development is usually done by teams of engineers with mixed areas of expertise. Optical engineers, electronic engineers, computer engineers and software developers to name a few. Usually, each works on a particular part of a design and then later the design elements are integrated. This last step is where the biggest headaches originate as sub-elements fail to work together as envisioned due to misunderstandings or failed communications between groups and this where the heavy time consuming testing takes place where bugs are identified and fixes are implemented and retested. Sometimes major design errors are found and it takes a great deal of time to fix these. With a removable module design, Ricoh engineers were forced to design an interface with solid electronic, mechanical and timing characteristics. Adding a new module where the interface is well defined and understood is a lot easier and quicker. The key is whether the company can capitalize on this characteristic. Another factor is the ability to design the optics to match the sensor characteristics. Suppose you want a full size sensor, it may be easier to accomplish when you can design the optics to overcome sensor short-commings.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    IMHO Ricoh has quality engineering. This to me is something that was done to increase revenue, not to save engineering costs. My viewpoint is based on 20+ years of product development, electronic design and manufacturing.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    It's not incompatible with the engineering goal.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    No, it isn't. Will be interesting to see if their marketing department can convince buyers.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    There lies the problem.

    Good luck to them (i think they do need lots of it).

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    I finally received the camera at 7:00pm (leave it to UPS to make me last on their delivery list after I sat home all day waiting because I had to sign for it). The battery is charging as I write this. My first impression was this is heavier than I expected, especially the A12 but even the 1/2 empty body was not light. It does feel very solid and the ergonomics of holding the camera are surprisingly better than the GF1 that isn't bad in that department either. The shape of the grip and where you fingers come to rest just feels better to me, more natural and easier to hold one handed. The A12 lensor feels very solid and well made with the focus ring being wide and having a soft rubber feel to the ribs. It protrudes further than the Panasonic 20mm f1.7 pancake but seems surprisingly small compared to the Panasonic 14-45mm zoom kit lens.

    The other surprise to me was the size comparison between the two cameras. In the images I have seen they appeared to be nearly the same size. In real life the GF1 seems to dwarf the GXR making it look more like a tiny P&S. Even adding the EVF that is larger on the GXR and the overall camera stills seems tiny in comparison to the GF1. I have uploaded three shots taken with my iPhone to give you some idea of what I mean though the images really fail to fully capture what sits before me.

    Untill the battery charges I won't be able to say much more but I would think with the SX10 module it would be easily pocketable in a light jacket or cargo shorts. Still too big for pants in my opinion though I'm sure there are those that would do it. The rubber on the front of the grip protrusion and on the back where the thumb rests feels very grippy and secure. Even with the leather Panasonic 1/2 case the GF1 does not feel as secure and is harder to hold one handed. In fact the balance of the GXR is clearly designed for single handed use as it feels secure and comfortable without place strain on the fingers. From what I have seen on the X1, without the optional hand grip it will be uncomfortable to hold in comparison.

    I am surprised that Ricoh did not put a threaded tripod mount on the lensor as there appears to be room and they could have centered it on the lens center line and left the other thread mount for those cases where the lensor lacked room. My initial impression of the mechanics is that everything is just a little higher quality and a little better thought out. On the other hand it costs more so those things should come with it.
    Last edited by barjohn; 26th June 2010 at 22:26.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    I just received the GXR today as well. Not much time with it yet, but it appears to have good dynamic range and the high ISO performance is very good. In my brief experience it seems to make beautiful B&W pictures. Because of the cost I don't want to like it, but now I'm not sure that plan will pan out. I did not get the EVF because of the additional expense, but I can already tell that if I keep the GXR I'll want it.

    Because the lens sticks out more the "bulk" is about the same as the E-P2 with the Panasonic 20/1.7 lens, though perhaps the GXR is slightly lighter.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Just been doing some test shots and I am amazed at the IQ so far, even at ISO 1600. Like you I was hope to not particularly like it but some aspects are wowing me. Unfortunately the AF isn't one of those. I will write more on the focus after I play with it more tomorrow.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    I just did a quick test against the E-P2 with the 45 macro. I think I just lost some love for the E-P2. The GXR DNGs seem very workable for dynamic range, detail and B&W work. They are very pleasing, like a lot of B&W film work I like. And as you say, ISO 1600 is clean. The GXR also feels more solid and comfortable in hand. The AF is indeed slow, and the manual focus zoom helps with that, but I'd like to see it have additional zoom levels to get even closer in the zoom pane. I plan to spend some time with it this weekend.

    Now I'm starting to think again about what other units I'd like to see.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    A little more discussion about the AF... First, it tends to move the lens a great deal and to do so slowly while seeking focus and then suddenly accelerate to a given focus. However, in the process it sometimes misses the stopping point resulting in the indicator showing in focus but the image showing it is not. Sometimes it just hunts and can't seem to find the focus. My guess as an engineer is that this is fixable in firmware. They can't make the motor any faster than it is but they can improve the servo loop so it stops at the right point. The combination of less lens movement distance as it hones in on the focus point should allow for better and faster stopping. It can't compete with the EP1 or GF1 in this area. The way they implemented the MF would be good except for the fact that the magnification is a bit low (and only one setting, also fixable in firmware) but it is easy to switch it on and it only occupies a rectangle in the center which is much better than the whole screen like the GF1. The other bad news here is that the focus point doesn't snap into being so you have to guess and the focus by wire of the focus ring lags so you can over shoot and then trying to come back you miss again. There is no reasonable excuse for this behavior and it should be fixed.

    One cool thing they did was when you push the button to use the EVF, after you take the shot, if you push the play button is displays on the back LCD and then when you 1/2 press the shutter it switches back to the EVF without having to do anything else. I much prefer this to the GF1's mode.

    I'll post more tomorrow.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    John,
    Please tell us how you like the EVF compared to the one on the GF-1.
    -Brad

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Update on AF
    Today in daylight the AF is much snappier and I would say that it is the equal of the EP1 or maybe even a little faster. A really big difference between tungsten lighting and daylight as far as AF performance goes. I also tested it in a rather dark room and performance was very close to GF1 performance. Apparently there is something about tungsten light and the contrast detect that gives it the biggest problem in AF performance.

    The LCD and VF are really excellent with super high resolution and smoothness and nice color and contrast. There is no contest between the GF1 and the GXR in this regard.

    The thing that is really blowing me away is the image IQ. It may be just poor memory but I think the IQ beats that of the Nikon D90 I had. I am going to compare similar shots and see if I am right. The DR is also excellent. I am starting to worry that I won't want to send it back.

    One thing I forgot to mention is how quiet the camera is. A faint click is all you hear unless you turn on the fake sound.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Here are some image comparisons all shot at ISO 200. I was a little off on the GF1 kit lens in that I set it at 24mm instead of 25mm and was using 4:3 on GF1 and 3:2 on GXR. All were shot on a tripod with the tripod kept in the same position and all within minutes of one another. I let each camera select its shutter speed and f-stop. On all images, the GXR image is on the left and the GF1 image is on the right. They are as imported into LR3 beta with no PP applied and are screen snaps of the RAW images in each case.
    Last edited by barjohn; 26th June 2010 at 22:26.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    John, thanks for these!!!

    Can you take some comparison shots with the 20mm f/1.7 pana lens vs. the 50mm GXR?

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Which color is more accurate on your last shot of the plate/napkin/tablecloth?

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Looks as if the GXR has the upper hand in the IQ department. Could play with one today at Photo Village in NYC and was told that Ricoh is working on a firmware upgrade to improve AF/reduce Af hunting.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    I will shoot some comparison shots using the 20mm f1.7 lens on the GF1 tomorrow as i have to go out and do some honey-dos shortly. The color of the reds is more accurate on the GXR. I can't recreate the color on the napkins because the sun is no longer where it was when I took the pictures to give me the same effect against the black and white napkins.

    I have also discovered that one of the reasons the Ricoh hunts in low light that the AF assist light does not come on soon enough. Under the same low light conditions, the GF1 turns on the AF assist lamp and the GXR does not. Once the level is low enough (almost dark) the GXR turns on the light and focuses just fine. Still not as quick but very close. This should be easily fixed in firmware.

    I have created Color Checker Passport profiles for both the GF1 and the GXR for use in LR 3 and I find the color profiles have very little effect on the GXR (it stays almost the same) but a pretty significant effect on the GF1.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    Looks as if the GXR has the upper hand in the IQ department. Could play with one today at Photo Village in NYC and was told that Ricoh is working on a firmware upgrade to improve AF/reduce Af hunting.
    The difference in detail captured is significant. Even after playing with both images in LR 3 Beta and playing with sharpening the GXR has significantly more detail and much better dynamic range. The images look deeper and richer and subtle details are clearly visible in the GXR that are only hinted at in the GF1 image. To be fair, in small prints up to 8x10 you might not see the detail differences but you would definitely see the DR differences in high contrast scenes.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    How are you evaluating the dynamic range? I know you let each camera chose the aperture and shutter speed but the difference doesn't seem to be simply dynamic range the exposure on all of the GF1 images is hotter.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Terry, I am looking at the histograms and the images and looking at the detail in both the shadows and the highlights. The GF1 tends to blow the highlights and even when I try and recover them the same level of detail is missing.

    I have attempted to recover the highlights on the GF1 image in the magnified shot and I have magnified images of the GF1 and GXR shadow too.

    The first two are GXR and the last two are GF1.
    Last edited by barjohn; 26th June 2010 at 22:25.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    The difference in detail captured is significant. Even after playing with both images in LR 3 Beta and playing with sharpening the GXR has significantly more detail and much better dynamic range. The images look deeper and richer and subtle details are clearly visible in the GXR that are only hinted at in the GF1 image. To be fair, in small prints up to 8x10 you might not see the detail differences but you would definitely see the DR differences in high contrast scenes.
    I was on the fence with my decision, but your pictures and comments might just have pushed me to pull the trigger Also, as you mention, the size of the GXR is nice, about the same as the Canon G10. Build quality and finish seem top notch, definitely a premium product. The grip is simply excellent and easily allows one hand shooting.
    Last edited by retow; 9th January 2010 at 14:09.

  36. #36
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Terry, I am looking at the histograms and the images and looking at the detail in both the shadows and the highlights. The GF1 tends to blow the highlights and even when I try and recover them the same level of detail is missing.

    I have attempted to recover the highlights on the GF1 image in the magnified shot and I have magnified images of the GF1 and GXR shadow too.

    The first two are GXR and the last two are GF1.
    . . . I just have to jump in here and say that this GF1 image is clearly over exposed in comparison to the GXR image. It's no secret that you have to use EV compensation with the GF1 when shooting in bright sun light.

    . . . The other problem that I have with this comparison is the use of a 14-45 zoom lens on the GF1 while comparing it with the prime lens module on the GXR. Why not use the 20/1.7 lens on the Pany instead? Zoom lenses offer focal length flexibility at the expense of image quality and these images don't show the real capability of the GF1 when using a lens of comparable IQ characteristics in my opinion.

    . . . And lastly. I understand there is some interest here in mirrorless cameras no matter what sensor format but this forum is supposed to be dedicated to the 4/3 format. Will the NX10 be joining the Ricoh here in this 4/3 forum as well?
    Last edited by tmrgrs; 9th January 2010 at 14:54.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    barjohn

    the last set of photos... some serious mismatches going on... not
    same FOV ... and the JPEG sizes of the GF1 pics are much smaller than the GXR ones... plus no other details of ISO/Aperture etc

    you know I am not a pixel peeping brickdust sniffing member of this fraternity... but i did briefly use a GXR pre production model, and while it was nice...i didn't see such a difference as you are with my 4/3 and micro 4/3 cameras

    cheers

    K

    not slamming the ricoh... but your GF1 pics seem much worse than i would expect

  38. #38
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Here are some image comparisons all shot at ISO 200. ..
    It seems to me all the photos of the GF1 too bright, fuzzy and lack contrast.

    ...the GF1 is a camera that up to ISO 800 is as good as a DSLR? Never!

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
    It seems to me all the photos of the GF1 too bright, fuzzy and lack contrast.

    ...the GF1 is a camera that up to ISO 800 is as good as a DSLR? Never!
    This is not me being a fangirl about the GF1 but I can pretty safely say that these shots are not indicative of the results I've seen from the GF1/G1/GH1.

    John,
    I really don't think you can talk about the DR of one versus the other without matching the exposures and these are very far apart.

  40. #40
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    A few points here.

    1. I am well aware that this is a 4/3rds forum as I own one and have owned others. My intent here is to try and help those that may have been on the fence as I have been. I will attempt to match exposures and use the 20mm f1.7 lens though I have to say that I have never seen that large a difference between it and the kit lens. I would agree that the GF1 tends to overexpose in bright sunlight as was happening here so I will set up manually to match.

    2. The images don't match up in size on the DR examples because I was using the Macs magnification to go above 100% without pixalating so that the difference would be visible in the screen captures. Since I was going from memory they aren't a perfect match but it was not intentional to favor one over the other. It was a quick response before I ran out the door to try and answer Terry's question.

    3. I am also trying to give it to you as I see it. Hence the JPGs are screen shots of the RAW images as displayed in LR and not the actual images though I would be happy to send anyone the original RAW files to play with that wants them.

    4. I took the camera with me this afternoon down to try and do some street shooting and with moving subjects i found another flaw in the AF. When you 1/2 press the shutter it freezes the image until focus is achieved and then suddenly it is back to a live moving subject only the subject isn't where it was when you started to take the shot. This is very disconcerting and something they need to fix. I tried zone focusing too but I haven't had time to check the results yet so I don't know how successful I was or wasn't as the case may be.

    Part of what I am looking for is a camera that gives excellent results as to image IQ with minimum PP. I don't mind some but would prefer to keep it to a minimum and the same goes for the camera's exposure capability under normal conditions. It should get it right most of the time without user intervention. User intervention should be limited to those tricky conditions that require the human eye and brain. (IMHO)
    V/r John

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    John

    thanks for your thoughts, but about point 1 if anyone is worried about that if they're not the moderator then killfile that one mate :-)

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    [QUOTE=barjohn;173072]A few points here.

    2. The images don't match up in size on the DR examples because I was using the Macs magnification to go above 100% without pixalating so that the difference would be visible in the screen captures. Since I was going from memory they aren't a perfect match but it was not intentional to favor one over the other. It was a quick response before I ran out the door to try and answer Terry's question.

    hold on hold on.... what do you mean using the macs magnification?....do you mean the zoom feature in System Pref/Universal access?.

    If you do that and then use the Mac screen capture you are going to get very wierd results.

    Kevin

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    John,
    My question goes deeper than the crops. The original exposures between the two cameras weren't matched. That in and of itself with throw off all of the comparisons. The GF1 was already over exposed. From there it only makes sense that there is less highlight room for recovery and you don't have enough to match the GXR. Also, are you metering with the full matrix metering? center weight? are both cameras set up similarly.
    I understand your desire to be able to "set it and forget it" and have the camera be able to get the proper exposure. I'm simply trying to compare the cameras where the first step is looking at matched exposure.

    Ricoh makes my favorite UI and there are things I loved about my GRD II. If the GXR is really head and shoulders ahead I would consider one. Still sounds like they have some firmware to work out....which doesn't bother me much because they do updates to cameras well past any manufacturer I've seen.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Pellicle, thanks.

    Kevin, I mean hold down the control key and scroll the wheel to Zoom the image. I haven't seen any negative effects from this except eventually it will pixelate too.

    Terry, I was using area exposure for both cameras but today I will use the 20mm lens and match exposure or if needed on the GF1 I will add compensation (looks like we will have another sunny day here). I should note that I was looking at the histograms when I was shooting and they looked ok on both cameras but seeing overexposure peeks is not easy on the histograms when they form a pretty normal exposure curve in the VF. The only reason I used the 14-45 lens was to try and match focal length.

    Finally, I will write Ricoh today to ask about the issues that I have seen so far and to ask about when one might expect a fix. All of the issues I have seen center around focusing. Image quality is really good and I am seeing it first hand on my calibrated iMac 24.

    The focus issues are (in order of importance):

    1. The frame freezing while it is trying to focus. This really makes focusing on moving subjects difficult and is very irritating as the image suddenly jumps. Once it thinks it has focus the image motion continues but as I fond yesterday with subjects moving toward me or away from me, the camera continued to indicate it was in focus (little square green) but I knew it wasn't.
    2. Any speed improvement to the AF would be very beneficial for moving subjects, otherwise you only have a camera that works well for still images or posed shots (I am not that good at zone focus shooting, especially with a 50mm effective lens even stopped down to f5.6).
    3. Turn on the AF assist light at higher light levels (at a minimum at the light level that the GF1 turns its on. There is a large gap between light levels that are too low for the camera to find focus and low enough for the AF assist light and it finds focus fine.
    4. Manual focus needs to improve the servo so it is: (a) smoother and less jumpy and (b) there is no perceptible lag between the adjustment and what is seen by the photographer. This lag makes it very difficult to find the focus point.
    5. Give us greater center magnification to assist with MF. The magnification is just not enough.

    If Ricoh can fix these issues they have a real winner in my opinion (assuming that they will expand the lensor line to add some additional primes).
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    John, It (your posts) reads like the Samsung NX is more worth bothering about.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Vivek, I have been watching the NX but so far the sample images have not shown much in the way of IQ. This could change as the images are from early beta versions. I know they claim fast AF and I like the OLED for the display. Getting lens sizes down with the larger sensor is one of the key issues or the benefit of smaller bodies is lost. I think they missed a real opportunity by not including in body image stabilization and an initial set of primes beyond the one pancake. making high quality zooms is difficult enough, then throw in making them small without serious optical compromises and it is really challenging and probably expensive too. If rumors of Panasonic's new 4/3rds sensor are true and they offer it in a new model with built in EVF it could change the ball game as it may be some time before we see a similar sensor available in APS-C.

    I should add, that the jury is still out on the GXR and to a large extent will depend on Ricoh's response. I hear they have a firmware upgrade just about ready for release. We will see.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    John, Could you post any links to the new sensor rumors from Mat$hu$hita?

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Here it is. Lower right hand on the page:
    http://43rumors.com/

    Also see new Panasonic 14mm f2.8 pancake.
    V/r John

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    John, Could you post any links to the new sensor rumors from Mat$hu$hita?
    I'm pretty sure a few years ago they completely dropped that name and only use Panasonic now.

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    Re: GXR/A12 vs GF1

    John, Thanks. Back illuminated (if true) is very welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I'm pretty sure a few years ago they completely dropped that name and only use Panasonic now.

    Terry, AFAIK (and I know very little of anything), the sensors are made by Matsu$hita Electric Co. Ltd.

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