Nikon-->m4/3 TILT adapter arrived

[Diane B]

Thanks Vivek. Deliberate--that's the key as you say--always when I'm using the TS. I know this is your own created tilt. So--how do you control it--have I missed a photo of the adaptor?. I mean do you use just your hands on the lens rotating on the adaptor (as I do with the Lensbaby) or a 'controller' like my knob on my Canon T/S? I'm guessing its more the former since I don't see that 'wedge' of focus I get with with the Canon (except it does sort of appear in the third one) but rather the 'area' of focus I get with the Lensbaby.

LOL--I shouldn't even ask this as I know how deliberate and (for want of a better descriptive term) scientific you are about your lenses, etc.---but when you say '8 degrees' of tilt--how do you determine that?? On my Canon, there is a scale that I refer to on the side where my knob to control my tilt is so I know how much my tilt is--with the LB/ball and socket--I just know from experience with my TS that it doesn't take much tilt and I just move it gradually in the direction I want--but don't have a clue how much tilt I'm doing.

Diane

 

[Vivek]

Diane, Many folks have asked about the contraption and I have not show it anywhere.

As you know well, whatever goes into creating an image, the bottomline is what impact it creates on the viewer and the rest are- mere details.

The degree of tilt is easy to determine (even when a scale isn't present). But, it is one mere detail.

 

[pellicle]

Hi Diane

Just reading this--having only a Canon 45 f/2.8 TS ...
I guess my question is---do you start out with your lens set horizontal and then gradually increase your tilt to increase your area of focus within the parameters you have decided??--or try to arrive at it more randomly. I'm trying to imagine using tilt for other than selective focus on a ball/socket.

Diane

with my view camera I operate by being familiar with how things behave and understanding the theory (not 100% on either by the way, but I've been using this system and camera for about 7 years and quite a few exposures.

For taking a photograph of the ground, where I want from my feet to infinity in focus, I know that my cameras base tilts (worth reading this) so I start with the foreground (at the bottom) in focus and pull the top of the camera film back towards me. Assuming you have the camera in landscape, it would be then pivoting the top of the camera towards you and the base of the camera away from you

Now, if the foreground was in focus it will go a little out of focus on my system and I will need to tune focus of the plane overall.

So its a little cut and try but I get it quite quickly with a two handed operation of tilting the back and

If Jinfinance doesn't come up with one of these adaptors soon I'll have to by the one from Italy.

Doug, I'm sure that this will also be excellent for your macro work too!

 

[Diane B]

Hi Diane



with my view camera I operate by being familiar with how things behave and understanding the theory (not 100% on either by the way, but I've been using this system and camera for about 7 years and quite a few exposures.

For taking a photograph of the ground, where I want from my feet to infinity in focus, I know that my cameras base tilts (worth reading this) so I start with the foreground (at the bottom) in focus and pull the top of the camera film back towards me. Assuming you have the camera in landscape, it would be then pivoting the top of the camera towards you and the base of the camera away from you

Now, if the foreground was in focus it will go a little out of focus on my system and I will need to tune focus of the plane overall.

So its a little cut and try but I get it quite quickly with a two handed operation of tilting the back and

If Jinfinance doesn't come up with one of these adaptors soon I'll have to by the one from Italy.

Doug, I'm sure that this will also be excellent for your macro work too!

Thanks, I understand the use of a regular T/S lens and the theory as i've been shooting with one for a number of years with my Canons. I was more interested in how you would shoot similarly with this adaptor which is on ball/socket. The reason I ask that is because the LB is ball/socket and its a lot harder to control than my T/S for the results that I want.

Diane

 

[pellicle]

Diane

I was more interested in how you would shoot similarly with this adaptor which is on ball/socket.

understood ... re-reading my reply I'm wondering if I was too unclear ... and it was the lens-baby operation I was trying to describe.

let me know if you want me to re-describe or clarify what I wrote.

 

[Diane B]

Diane



understood ... re-reading my reply I'm wondering if I was too unclear ... and it was the lens-baby operation I was trying to describe.

let me know if you want me to re-describe or clarify what I wrote.

Thanks--I reread and do understand what you are saying. Just having used the ball/socket I just find it quite a bit harder to do the 'pulling' without it veering to left or right. With my Canon TS, its very cut and dried---you simply tilt with the knob--and if you wish to direct the focus area in a different direction you rotate the lens. Control is much much easier though you have to be very precise and with my 5D (with a good FF OVF, but nothing as nice to check MF as the G1' EVF LOL) a rechecking of the parameters of focus--not fast. Of course if I'm using for selective focus I can do it much more quickly but not so easily for that very precise area of focus I want often using tilt and shift.

I'd like one of these adaptors--even if they are harder to use (my assumption as I said LOL--using the ball/socket of the LB) since it would allow me to use some faster lenses that I like (28/f.20 for instance). AFAIK, there is no FD mount and I really would rather not start accumulating another set of lenses--as I'm also pretty happy with the FDs.

I'll just keep watching this for any further developments. I need to find that link again and check the developer for what he has available.

Edit: In looking at it again, I'm guessing he won't likely mfg. one for FD mount (since the adaptors for those are different)--so I may have to bite the bullet and find another mount in FL I prefer for this. Hopefully some others will buy one and I can get a better feel for them LOL--I watched the video again too--and am still interested as I think it would just be a matter of adapting to the ball/socket as I have with the LB Composer (which is more variable just due to its own idiosyncracies).

Diane

 

[Vivek]

The reason I ask that is because the LB is ball/socket and its a lot harder to control than my T/S for the results that I want.

Diane

Diane, Please excuse me if this answer is out of place. My answer to that is- practice.

There is a clear distinction between Doug's adapter plus a Nikon lens and the other contraption you mention. Doug's set up would have a real lens.

 

[Diane B]

Diane, Please excuse me if this answer is out of place. My answer to that is- practice.

There is a clear distinction between Doug's adapter plus a Nikon lens and the other contraption you mention. Doug's set up would have a real lens.

Yes, got that Vivek LOL--that's why I'm interested.

 

[woodmancy]

Thanks--I reread and do understand what you are saying. Just having used the ball/socket I just find it quite a bit harder to do the 'pulling' without it veering to left or right. With my Canon TS, its very cut and dried---you simply tilt with the knob--and if you wish to direct the focus area in a different direction you rotate the lens. Control is much much easier though you have to be very precise and with my 5D (with a good FF OVF, but nothing as nice to check MF as the G1' EVF LOL) a rechecking of the parameters of focus--not fast. Of course if I'm using for selective focus I can do it much more quickly but not so easily for that very precise area of focus I want often using tilt and shift.

I'd like one of these adaptors--even if they are harder to use (my assumption as I said LOL--using the ball/socket of the LB) since it would allow me to use some faster lenses that I like (28/f.20 for instance). AFAIK, there is no FD mount and I really would rather not start accumulating another set of lenses--as I'm also pretty happy with the FDs.

I'll just keep watching this for any further developments. I need to find that link again and check the developer for what he has available.

Edit: In looking at it again, I'm guessing he won't likely mfg. one for FD mount (since the adaptors for those are different)--so I may have to bite the bullet and find another mount in FL I prefer for this. Hopefully some others will buy one and I can get a better feel for them LOL--I watched the video again too--and am still interested as I think it would just be a matter of adapting to the ball/socket as I have with the LB Composer (which is more variable just due to its own idiosyncracies).

Diane

Hi Diane:

I've been using this contraption for a couple of weeks with M42 lenses. I like the results ( as I said earlier in this thread, I have posted my impressions and images in the Bokeh thread - there are pictures of my setup there)

It is similar to my Composer, but a little more difficult to use because the lenses put more weight forward. I do all of my stuff hand held, so I slacken off the clamp and move the lens to get the OOF that I like, then I focus, before tightening down. Works well for me. I have got some good responses to my images.

I have communicated with the designer and told him that we would like to see a Canon FD mount - and I have pointed him to this site.

Keith

 

[Diane B]

Hi Diane:

I've been using this contraption for a couple of weeks with M42 lenses. I like the results ( as I said earlier in this thread, I have posted my impressions and images in the Bokeh thread - there are pictures of my setup there)

It is similar to my Composer, but a little more difficult to use because the lenses put more weight forward. I do all of my stuff hand held, so I slacken off the clamp and move the lens to get the OOF that I like, then I focus, before tightening down. Works well for me. I have got some good responses to my images.

I have communicated with the designer and told him that we would like to see a Canon FD mount - and I have pointed him to this site.

Keith

Thanks Keith. I'll go back to that thread (which I follow--but not as much as the merged thread) and see. Also, thanks for the clarification vs. the Composer. I bet its more similar to when I put the WA converter on the Composer (I mostly shoot handheld also)--its very front heavy and I have to almost close it down (movement wise) in order to have any control over it. One of the reasons I'd like it would be to have easier control over aperture for one thing but also to have the FL I like and good lenses (though the Composer isn't bad for sharpness in the focused area) but they are two different looks IMO.

As it is on the m4/3rds we're talking 100 mm and with the WA converter it is about 42mm but even a bit harder to use or focus selectively (though I do keep it on most of the time rather than use the native 50). I'd like very much to shoot with the 28/2.0 or 24 f/2.8 or even my 35 f/2.8 and get in the realm of FLs I prefer with more control over all.

Hope he checks out our site (wonder if he reads English--or perhaps he'll translate). I did notice at the top of his tilt adaptor page he has Canon listed (about the only thing I can read LOL) but I don't find it anywhere else and I was wondering if it was for EF mount. I've been trying to figure out if there was a stackable 2 adaptor solution for my FDs, but don't think so with the lenses listed.

Diane.

 

[woodmancy]

Thanks Keith. I'll go back to that thread (which I follow--but not as much as the merged thread) and see. Also, thanks for the clarification vs. the Composer. I bet its more similar to when I put the WA converter on the Composer (I mostly shoot handheld also)--its very front heavy and I have to almost close it down (movement wise) in order to have any control over it. One of the reasons I'd like it would be to have easier control over aperture for one thing but also to have the FL I like and good lenses (though the Composer isn't bad for sharpness in the focused area) but they are two different looks IMO.

As it is on the m4/3rds we're talking 100 mm and with the WA converter it is about 42mm but even a bit harder to use or focus selectively (though I do keep it on most of the time rather than use the native 50). I'd like very much to shoot with the 28/2.0 or 24 f/2.8 or even my 35 f/2.8 and get in the realm of FLs I prefer with more control over all.

Hope he checks out our site (wonder if he reads English--or perhaps he'll translate). I did notice at the top of his tilt adaptor page he has Canon listed (about the only thing I can read LOL) but I don't find it anywhere else and I was wondering if it was for EF mount. I've been trying to figure out if there was a stackable 2 adaptor solution for my FDs, but don't think so with the lenses listed.

Diane.

Hi Diane - he says that most of his site is now translated. And he is looking at our threads. I have had very good experience in this purchase. I am using M42 and the widest I can get now is with my Pentax 28/3.5. But, my first subjective impressions is that I like it more than my Composer. As I am very interested in bokeh, the Pentax lenses have given me the double-line bokeh, plus I can get the selective focus.

Keith

 

[kainekainekaine]

Do you guys think it would be possible to make a tilt and shift version of this? For architecture. Cheers

 

[kainekainekaine]

I wonder also as the adapters are so large, if it would be possible to make a focal reducer in that space, so we could get full frame from our old lenses and maybe improved light performance. I love the interesting new possibilities coming from evil cameras.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

Do you guys think it would be possible to make a tilt and shift version of this? For architecture. Cheers

I definitely do, some time last year I posted this.

With some sample design ideas for manufacturers (such as jinfinance) showing that there was room in the mount to facilitate this:

and offering a suggestion based on inverting an existing russian design:

Note: the above example povides tilt and shift. There is plenty of image circle in 35mm lenses to facilitate this on a micro 4/3. Shift however is perhaps of less interest, although if one had one of those 8mm russian fish eye lenses one would indeed get good millage out of the shift. Given the greater depth of field given by the smaller sensor on 8mm @ f5.6 I feel that perhaps tilt would be unneeded on those lenses. Accordingly I feel that *(developing this logic) a tilt and **** adapter would be unnecessary and perhaps overly complex. A pair would be good enough. I say this as I rarely used tilt on my 24mm (though did from time to time) and rarely used shift on my 90mm.

if I had access to machining equipment here I would have built one already (but I don't).

The important part of my design is that it would more or less revolve the lens about its center point making focus easier. Of course this will not be true of every lens as telephoto lenses and retro focal wide angles have their nodal point in strange places.

So a one size fits all won't be simple perhaps even possible.

If you have time to examine the Canon TS-E series its worth noting the differing mechanisms for their implementations (24, 45 and 90), but I suspect they follow (as far as they can) the design concept created by Sinar in the P series which introduced asymmetric tilts to allow the photographer to tilt a plane about where they wish. The Canons tilt about the center of field of view.

 

[greypilgrim]

Hi all, sorry for disappearing from the thread, but I actually got out to go shooting some Saturday between (and in) the rains...

Yes, I got try try out my adapter.

First a link to a rather wicked sunset shot I lucked into, hope you like it:

http://web.me.com/greypilgrim/Photos/CastleRock-1-23-10-158.jpg

I'm going to cross post in the 45-200 thread, and would love some comments on the three I post there.

Vivek, those shots of the bicyclist really catch me as well as the ones I assume are of your son...

Diane,
I've commented on yours before, but I still really like them , especially the cemetery one.


Thoughts and results from playing with the adapter are in my next reply.

Doug

 

[greypilgrim]

Okay, here I go:

1) I've got a lot to learn with this adapter

2) I actually managed to get my self into a situation where focusing more towards infinity brought physically closer objects into focus and focusing closer to in brought further objects into focus. And if that wasn't a mind blowing experience :wtf:. I actually tried another lens just to make sure I wasn't going nuts . I've figured out what happened. It turns out that the closer objects were physically lower than the further objects, and I managed to tilt the lens enough between adapter and tripod that technically the closer objects horizontally were further away vertically.

3) Diane, I think the experience of using this adapter on day one is similar to what you were describing to your Lensbaby experiences. trying to get the tilt properly aligned is an interesting challenge as it is easy to induce an off axis tilt as well.

4) Pellicle, After spending some time really trying to slow down and trying to get some shots technically correct, I finally realized I needed to also follow your advice, get it off the tripod and just see what happened. I think I am going to have to go back and forth between the two approaches to finally get a handle on using it creatively.

5) my general thoughts are that this is a fun addition to my tools, but to be really successful with it will take time, and you have to be really careful not to overdo it.

Doug

The first four shots are with tripod. The last two are handheld. All shot with my 20mm f3.5 except for the one with the two trees on the right.

This one I was able to tilt just enough to get my plane of focus on the plane of the fern's leaves without losing the rock on the right and encompass the water in the background (shot at f8):

And this one, I was able to pull the stick in without losing the background; I actually had some sideways tilt as well given where I had to set up my tripod:

This one at first glance I though I had something, but if you look at the trees on the left, you can see how the plane of focus actually slices through the tree. It is more apparent and quite disconcerting at full size:

And this was the one that totally drove me nuts and finally convinced me to go handheld for a while. Although difficult to see, it demonstrated the problem I was having. I jut could not get the lighter patch and the protruding knot further down the log into focus at the same time. In hindsight, I need to tilt LESS as I pretty much had the plane of focus parallel to the log, neatly slicing through the knot:

Both of these handheld images demonstrate the "diorama effect", purely unintentionally. And they are more lensbaby'ish to my mind. I was simply trying to figure out how to get the knot on the lefthand fork of the trunk in focus . They look pretty gimmicky to me:

 

[pellicle]

Doug

well done. Looking at your shots (particularly)

they have worked really well. I think you've done very well. Getting the hang of how this works and pre-visualizing it really does take time.

if you haven't used a large format view-camera before then welcome to the world of focus control (rather than just focusing).

A point to consider (although you've probably already read it) is that if you recall that the depth of field (before after) the focus point becomes wider (measured) as you focus on a point further away, then the "wedge" of tilted focus gets wider as it is further from the camera.

So for example in this shot:

by stopping down a little you'd have got more in focus as it goes further away.

That can be seen somewhat in this image taken with a 180mm on a 4x5 camera (essentially a normal):

I didn't want to go slower than f8 (which is about the same as f2 on a 50mm lens in 35mm land) as I was already at 45 seconds exposure. The plane of focus goes not quite along the mossy tree trunk but a little bit above it, because I wanted the entire height of that fern in focus but didn't want the distance background in focus.

So, it looks to me that that adaptor is providing exactly the sorts of things I have been wanting out of the idea.

I can't wait to get one

 

[Diane B]

Having control over the plane of focus is exactly what I want. I use a tilt shift for a variety of things--3 flat shot pano, shift to correct perspective, tilt to increase perception of DOF and selective focus--and combinations of those (particularly shift and then tilt--the new versions of the Canons allow tilt and shift to be done in same direction--with the older versions [like mine], you must reorient the lens to allow tilt and shift to be used in same direction--and I don't because generally the default orientation works best for me).

With the G's, I really am more interested in the selective focus most of the time so the adaptor for the m4/3rds would be great.

These were shot with 5D and EF 45 f/2.8 TSe but are examples of what I would want to do
This is an f/13--increasing that wedge of focus Pellicle talks about above and it is wider at far end. I was standing in the middle of this sunflower field and used shift to correct the sunflowers perspective and used tilt (wide wedge) tilted toward left (plane) and then rotated a bit to follow the line of the flower rows. This would have been a lot easier with liveview LOL--and it was handheld.

This was done at f/4.0 to keep the wedge narrow and the blurred area larger--focus wedge started in the foreground and extended just to the building itself.

This was very narrow wedge of focus at /2.8 with the lens rotated so that is horizontal and rotated just enough, again, to follow the row of fungi.

I just realized that these are all handheld--which I do a lot since many places don't allow a tripod---or I've found a shot where I'm not carrying a tripod.

I've included another--one I don't think I would be able to shoot selective focus with the Lensbaby because I particularly wanted the wedge of focus to extend from fore in the lake including the reflection to include the 'house' (Biltmore in Asheville, NC--largest 'house' in US LOL) on the hill. f/6.3 handheld also

Diane

 

[pellicle]

Diane

the thing I loved about the TS-E series lenses is that you can actually do all this stuff hand held (unlike a view camera). After a little while I got quite quick with the TS-E and found them very nice to work with. I just love your sunflower shot. controls visual interest nicely keeping your eye flowing with the flowers but ignoring the background. This sort of thing is exactly what I want, not the stuff which seems to make large objects seem as if they were models.

Sort of like I did in this:

After using a view camera for some years, I find the lack of control of fixed lenses quite humdrum ... the only thing worse is the 'everything in focus' effect from wide lenses on the smaller formats (like 4/3 and less)

 

[Diane B]

Diane

the thing I loved about the TS-E series lenses is that you can actually do all this stuff hand held (unlike a view camera). After a little while I got quite quick with the TS-E and found them very nice to work with. I just love your sunflower shot. controls visual interest nicely keeping your eye flowing with the flowers but ignoring the background. This sort of thing is exactly what I want, not the stuff which seems to make large objects seem as if they were models.

Sort of like I did in this:

After using a view camera for some years, I find the lack of control of fixed lenses quite humdrum ... the only thing worse is the 'everything in focus' effect from wide lenses on the smaller formats (like 4/3 and less)

You and I are exactly on the same page. I just don't understand the techical part as well (I understand the Scheimpflug principle enough to apply it--or enough 'to be dangerous' as they say LOL)--the how--but not the why maybe???--not interested in making my own or in creating the things to do it with--I want something that I can BUY LOL--I'm challenged with mechanical things.

I totally agree about the 'everything in focus' on smaller formats and that's something I'm having to learn to compromise with 4/3rds---its enough--but anything less I'm just not interested in. If I have the ability to change the plane of focus, then I'll be a happy camper.

Diane