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Thread: GH2 could be incredible!

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    GH2 could be incredible!

    Panasonic is developing some major sensor changes that could make the GH2 REALLY incredible. If what they are saying on the article bellow is true this could allow the micro 4/3 system to really live to it's full potential, overcoming present obstacles such as high iso and inferior dynamic range. I'm not a very technical guy but the system seems to use a similar theory to the one used with foveon sensors. Check out the article:

    http://www.eoshd.com/entry.php?29-Pa...xposure-sensor

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Excelent news because of 2 stops high iso gain and better color accuracy.
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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: Curved Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by s.agar View Post
    Excelent news because of 2 stops high iso gain and better color accuracy.
    The penny's dropped at last! Someone's finally realized that these cameras don't use film any more and that there's no need for the sensor to imitate its flatness. Leica sort of started on the idea by shifting the angle of the extremes of the sensor's microlenses inwards:

    "Curved image sensors curve around the back of an aspherical lens element, producing huge gains in image quality and lens design. It's actually similar in design to the human retina."

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    If Panasonic plays it's cards right I really think this could be the turning point for people who were not convience by the micro 4/3 system. I keep dreaming of a little GF1/E-P1 like camera with a D90 dynamic range/iso performance.

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Is this similar to the Sigma approach? 3 different sensors to capture a scene? If so, this would be amazing!! Dabbled with a Sigma DP1 and that camera produced the most detailed shots I ever took - more detailed than the 5D, and it's per pixel sharpness is amazing..........too bad it's only 4 megapixels.

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    Re: Curved Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    The penny's dropped at last! Someone's finally realized that these cameras don't use film any more and that there's no need for the sensor to imitate its flatness. Leica sort of started on the idea by shifting the angle of the extremes of the sensor's microlenses inwards:

    "Curved image sensors curve around the back of an aspherical lens element, producing huge gains in image quality and lens design. It's actually similar in design to the human retina."

    What?? No more programmed lenses with built in corrections?

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Curved Sensor

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    "Curved image sensors curve around the back of an aspherical lens element, producing huge gains in image quality and lens design. It's actually similar in design to the human retina."
    sadly that's not something we're likely to see on the Panasonic GH2 in the next year or so

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Quote Originally Posted by roanjoh View Post
    Is this similar to the Sigma approach? 3 different sensors to capture a scene? If so, this would be amazing!! Dabbled with a Sigma DP1 and that camera produced the most detailed shots I ever took - more detailed than the 5D, and it's per pixel sharpness is amazing..........too bad it's only 4 megapixels.
    Same here. I've stated many times that I would love to see Sigma come up with a small DP1 like micro 4/3 camera.

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    While an improved sensor would be an excellent enhancement to the G series of camera, I will not get excited until the new camera is released and Panasonic lists the the features and specifications. Then I want to see professional and user reviews to see if the camera performance is equal to the manufacturer's hype.

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard View Post
    While an improved sensor would be an excellent enhancement to the G series of camera, I will not get excited until the new camera is released and Panasonic lists the the features and specifications. Then I want to see professional and user reviews to see if the camera performance is equal to the manufacturer's hype.
    Tough audience!

    The choice of colors and matching accessories don't have any influence?

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Tough audience!

    The choice of colors and matching accessories don't have any influence?
    Sounds fab to me . . . I want a yellow one.

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I want a yellow one.
    No, no, no, the only available colour for the first year will be pink.
    This was decided by the marketing division yesterday, because more than 50% of the potential buyers are women

    I couldn't care less, I already have a blue G1 (goluboij = blue has a second meaning in russian, that I couldn't post here, because we are a family friendly forum)

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: Curved Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    sadly that's not something we're likely to see on the Panasonic GH2 in the next year or so
    I copied and pasted the penultimate paragraph of the OP's initial link, it wasn't me stating this, hence the quotation marks.

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Sounds fab to me . . . I want a yellow one.
    Given the announced breakthrough in technology, a green one could become a volume seller- outselling the blue and red by wide margins.

    For Pink, yellow, brown, purple, etc, they could always offer the appropriate "skins".

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    Re: Curved Sensor

    Flat film plane imposed a lot of design problems for the lenses. That's why we have so complicated desighs, all coming from the old film era.
    With the curved sensor, it will be very easy to design lenses. These will be smaller and cheaper.

    However, I'm afraid that in the near future, this will be used only for fixed lenses for P+S cameras, because all other firms have existing lines of lenses that are not suitable for curved sensors.

    But in the future systems, this seems to be the natural route to take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    The penny's dropped at last! Someone's finally realized that these cameras don't use film any more and that there's no need for the sensor to imitate its flatness. Leica sort of started on the idea by shifting the angle of the extremes of the sensor's microlenses inwards:

    "Curved image sensors curve around the back of an aspherical lens element, producing huge gains in image quality and lens design. It's actually similar in design to the human retina."
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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Having spent time in semiconductor process development, creating chips on a curved surface would be very difficult. There is a reason things have been flat, many process steps need the planar surfaces. Furthermore, one then looses the multiple chips per wafer that decreases cost. I agree that this will require yet another camera system as no legacy lenses would be suitable.

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Quote Originally Posted by CPWarner View Post
    Having spent time in semiconductor process development, creating chips on a curved surface would be very difficult. There is a reason things have been flat, many process steps need the planar surfaces. Furthermore, one then looses the multiple chips per wafer that decreases cost.
    What if you forget Silicon altogether and think in terms of plastics- ie., organic semiconductors? Fabrication can be super simple and sensors can even be flexible!

    It may seem far away but those OLEDs also looked very distant technology only a few years ago.

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Scalability will still be an economic issue there with the curvature. I have heard the claims of super simple processing many times, but have yet to see that manifested in something on the order of the ground rules that we are talking about today for imaging chips. Give it another 5 to 10 years and we will see...

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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    The two most exciting things about the Panasonic 4/3 system is that it's selling and that you can use most any lens ever made on it if you're willing to focus manually. The latter means that an awful lot of old classic lenses have been bought up around the world and whatever is left has much higher prices. Try to find a Contax G lens at KEH right now. They're all gone. The former means that if the camera sticks, then the sensors will continue to improve at a rate of every two years or so. The discussion here is about what's going on now, apparently, not about what's coming in 4 years. This sounds a bit silly, but not when you already have very high quality lenses from a variety of sources that will all work on these cameras. No wonder it's so popular already.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Curved Sensor

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    I copied and pasted the penultimate paragraph of the OP's initial link, it wasn't me stating this, hence the quotation marks.
    yes, I know ... but I was just lamenting that its not likely to happen

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    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    My first reaction; I don't care about the video (though many will) I would like to couple fast primes to it if it performs like the potential suggests.
    In other words, I want a body for about $800, not a body-lens combo for $1800.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: GH2 could be incredible!

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    In other words, I want a body for about $800, not a body-lens combo for $1800.
    that would have been the G1


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    If 2 stops better ISO performance, I'd like it

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    that would have been the G1

    That I have, but if this thing is a couple stops better in the ISO category, I'd like it.
    BTW, you know how Nikon released the D3s with a workable ISO 25,600? (They claim 102,400, but that's pushing it). This is the G1 at 3200 with a -3 stop underexposure, a simulated 25,600. The full-sized image below (link) is not for the faint of heart.

    http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/imag...61931/original


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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: If 2 stops better ISO performance, I'd like it

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    That I have, but if this thing is a couple stops better in the ISO category, I'd like it.
    BTW, you know how Nikon released the D3s with a workable ISO 25,600? (They claim 102,400, but that's pushing it). This is the G1 at 3200 with a -3 stop underexposure, a simulated 25,600. The full-sized image below (link) is not for the faint of heart.
    certainly that image is ugly, but I don't think that a -3 stop underexposure is a proper simulation of the pushing. There is no appropriate analog gain applied to the signal to move it away from the floor noise. This stuff happens at the analog side of the sensor before A to D conversion. Playing with the RAW file isn't quite the same.

    It is interesting to compare the bigger frame cameras with their higher ISO, but this is where the 2.4 MP/cm² pixel density of the 5DMkII over the 5 MP/cm² pixel density of the G1 comes in handy. What really interests me is seeing how well the Canon 7D performs up there with it having 5.4 MP/cm²

    must be some serious analog signal processing happening there my friend

    oh, and don't take it that I'm against improvement of the G1's high ISO ability. Even if they improved ISO by pixel binning down to 6 megapixels and gave nice images to 1600ISO I'd be comfortable. As it is the use of 1600ISO on the G1 in RAW seems unattractive and shows nasty grids on plenty of occasions.
    Last edited by pellicle; 20th February 2010 at 23:06.

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    Re: If 2 stops better ISO performance, I'd like it

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    certainly that image is ugly, but I don't think that a -3 stop underexposure is a proper simulation of the pushing. There is no appropriate analog gain applied to the signal to move it away from the floor noise. This stuff happens at the analog side of the sensor before A to D conversion. Playing with the RAW file isn't quite the same.
    True, the chromatic problem gets worse as you drop in ISO and raise brightness values to compensate. But my idea would be that the Nikon's 25,600 ISO is eminently usable, that is how far Nikon has gotten and if we could somehow get 2 more stops above a current G1's high ISO performance, one of the only issues with the camera would be resolved very well. And I could use my D300 even less!

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: If 2 stops better ISO performance, I'd like it

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    if we could somehow get 2 more stops above a current G1's high ISO performance, one of the only issues with the camera would be resolved very well. And I could use my D300 even less!
    you've got my vote!


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