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Thread: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

  1. #1
    spiderfrank
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    "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Hi guys, yesterday I went to a shop and asked to see the OLY E-P2 with kit zoom and a manual lens (they gave me a brand new Summicron... oh my God! ;-) ).
    I made some shots in the shop, using my SD card, the Summicron is a dream, of course, but I noticed a lot of noise and some sort of "stripes of noise" in the darkest areas. I was almost convinced to buy the camera, but when i saw the images, it was a broken dream to me. i didn't noticed anything like this in the pictures on line. I'd like very much to have your opinion about this issue.

    Thank you
    Franco



    500 iso


    200 iso


    1250 iso


    640 iso


    1600 iso


    640 iso

  2. #2
    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    You should set GRADATION to normal. All other settings will increase the noise level in darker areas.
    An other point is: What Noise filter was set ??? Was it OFF ? You should use LOW
    Give is a second try...
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  3. #3
    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    E-P1 and ISO 800

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    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    WOW: POST 1000

    The Band
    E-P1 with ISO3200
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  5. #5
    spiderfrank
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    kweide, I don't know how was the set-up of the camera, I supposed it was at the default values. Your photos are very good like all the images I found in Internet. Can you reproduce the problems with a "right" (wrong) set-up of the parameters?

  6. #6
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Quote Originally Posted by kweide View Post
    E-P1 and ISO 800

    Wow, Great shot Klaus! I love reflections.

    Cheers
    Michiel

  7. #7
    spiderfrank
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Michiel, this is not a photo-contest, I like very much the shots of Kweide, but the question is if what I saw in the shop is the "reality" of the camera, or only a mix of bad menu settings. That camera costs a huge amount of money, and I want to be sure of it's qualities and issues before eventually deciding to buy a m4/3 camera. Of course in ten minutes "on hand" it's impossible to explore the menu and find the "right" settings...

  8. #8
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by spiderfrank View Post
    ... but the question is if what I saw in the shop is the "reality" of the camera, or only a mix of bad menu settings. That camera costs a huge amount of money, and I want to be sure of it's qualities and issues before eventually deciding to buy a m4/3 camera. Of course in ten minutes "on hand" it's impossible to explore the menu and find the "right" settings...
    your original post was:

    but I noticed a lot of noise and some sort of "stripes of noise" in the darkest areas. I was almost convinced to buy the camera, but when i saw the images, it was a broken dream to me.
    I've looked hard and can't see any trace of your stripes of noise anywhere. I even examined the pictures you posted carefully in photoshop at 300%


    click picture to see fully 300%


    could you make clearer what you see wrong?

    I know that with the G1 (I have a G1 not a Oly, but there are valid comparisons to be made with them) will show some strange artifacts in RAW files depending on processing and in JPG at higher ISO. This can be found when looking for these problems.

    For instance, this image was taken (camera JPG at 1600iso)



    zooming in to 100% (if you follow the picture link)


    will show focus errors and some camera shake (hand held with a 300mm at 1/50th sec) and some noise but nothing I'd call funny for a sensor like this at ISO like that.

    more information on the broken dream (and what your dream originally was) please

  9. #9
    spiderfrank
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    what I mean with "stripes" (sorry but English is not my language) is that the reddish points of noise seems to form orizontal bands in the dark miosier areas. I don't see them in your photo of the conference, and don't see noise in the first two from kweide. If the shots of kweide are the normal behaviour of the camera, I think it's a beautiful little toy...

  10. #10
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    spider

    take a look at this thread:

    http://www.flickr.com/groups/1084614...7622637978730/

    things are not all perfect in the micro4/3 world ... so it may be something like this becoming clear ... perhaps settings will fix this, perhaps a firmware fix too.

  11. #11
    spiderfrank
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    ah ah ah!!
    the mazing is... amazing!

    out of joke, any other opinion about my little test?

    thank you
    Franco

  12. #12
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    testing my EP2 continuously since 2 months in real life and -

    NO STRANGE RESULTS

    something must be wrong

  13. #13
    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    And yes... if E-P setup went wrong you definitly have a lot more noise in the pictures as usual.
    But keep in mind: Setup cannot do miracles. You have to do a little PP to achive the look you want. E-Px cams are no DSLRs and no P+S cam !
    Okay, here we go

    Noise filter: LOW ( On Higher ISO from 1250 to max: NORMAL )
    Noise reduction AUTO
    Gradation NORMAL ( lifts dark areas and has great impact und shadownoise )
    Shadowing comp: OFF ( lifts the shadows in the edges but increases noise as well )
    Colorspace: ADOBE RGB
    Sharpness: -1 to max 0 ( sharpnes accentuates even lowest noise. I always do sharpening in PP ).

    Thats it

    Mostly Gradation and Shadowing comp are set wrong. Both settings cause NOISE in dark areas. Just check that both are set correctly.

    Another points for noise are:

    Whitebalance: It has an impact on noiselevel as well. With wrong WB you will have more noise !
    Expose to the right ! It is even better to overexpose a little ( +1 to max +2 ) and reduce the brightness in PP to normal mode. You will see a lot less noise !

    But yes, the E-Px cams are NOT NOISEFREE. You have to do a little rework as usual on all digital cams. But with a little setup and a little PP you will see fantasic outcome.
    BTW. I dont see any banding in your pics. Only a little Noise in the dark areas ( assume Gradation and/or shadowing comp are on wrong values ) That level can easily be controlled with Noiseware pro Noiseninja or NIK Define or whatever you like...
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  14. #14
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Hi SpiderFrank

    ok ... some thoughts on how to make better with what you get.

    Firstly your shots were indoor, not outdoor. People tend to think of cameras as magic boxes, but its not just "white-mans-magic" and there are some principles of physics and engineering you can apply and which are comprehensible to 'mortals'

    Firstly, I'm reasonably comfortable that the sensors on the cameras are balanced for daylight and I'm reasonably sure that white balance is not done by tuning the analog gain of B or G sensors in the array.

    So, if you shoot in daylight all things will be at their peak, but if you shoot in other light and use AWB then the camera will "fix" for you in the data (not in the analog Analog to Digital conversion stage) the imbalnce of light colours you see.

    so, if you set your camera to be daylight (not AWB where the camera makes some guesses as to the colour temperature) of an indoor shot you'll get something like this:


    This is a snapshot of the back of my G1, notice how much better the red signal is, and how little blue there is?

    Split the channels of a AWB shot from indoors and you'll see that most of the noise is in the blue channel looking at the above historgram you can see that to "normalise it" one would need to stretch that blue significantly. Depending on what happens on how your camera reports clipping, you may get red channel only reporting causing the blinking warnings ... I'm told that's common.

    So, if you want to expose right, and minimise noise you can either blow out the reds (recoverable to some extent in RAW post processing) or do something quite old fashioned and use a colour correction filter such as an 80A wratten on your camera when you're indoors.

    These are a deep blue and will really help your digital images (just as they did our film images years ago).

    so while we've largely forgotten about colour filtration and film "colour temperature" the concept still holds importance. I'm sure if you did you're test outside you'd have been happier with what you saw from the camera, and if you used the 80A on the camera inside you'd be happier than you were with the images you found.

    I encourage you to split the test image into RGB in photoshop and look at each of the R G and B layers.

    :-)

  15. #15
    Jamesmd
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Hi , kweide , thanks for tips ;-) .Do those settings afect RAW ?

    Pellicle , yes , whe forget things , and sometimes think digital is magic , thanks , I'm of to buy a filter . ;-)

    cheers

    James

  16. #16
    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    If you like to use Auto WB, reduce the R value in the WB setup ( 1- or -2 ) and increase G by the same amount.

    This prevents the red channel to be blown out either....

    @James
    RAW is RAW, all camera internal setting touch only the JPG Engine. RAW is untouched....

    @Pellicle
    This is so beautifully said.... thats what i meant with "Set the WB to the right value". Do never trust AWB. Always do an individual White balance. It is sooo easy...
    And afterwards make a channel by channel Level correction to R, G, B channels
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  17. #17
    Jamesmd
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Thanks Kweide , I understand Raw are raw , thats why as you gave settings I thought perhaps the camera had some settings before actually recording the raw .

    cheers

  18. #18
    spiderfrank
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    this is becaming a really interesting topic, guys!! :-)

  19. #19
    spiderfrank
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    Hi guys, I'm back on this topic because I just bought a Pen E-PL1 with viewfinder (VF2) and 14-42 kit lens.
    Now I'm starting to orient in the menus and terminology, but from the first shots it seems to be less noisy than the E-P2 I tested in the shop, so probably there was some wrong setup. Next step is to buy an m39-m4/3 adapter, so I can use my Voigtlander lenses, plus some old vintage lenses.

    Not so elegant like the E-P2, but still a beautiful toy ;-)

    Franco

  20. #20
    spiderfrank
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    Re: "tested" an E-P2 at a shop... Strange results

    ps: I'll try to use the kweide's tips with my E-PL1, wait and see... ( Thank-you Kweide )

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