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New Sony, all I can say is, "WOW!"

RichA

New member
That is good to read, Rich! Thanks!.

Nex-3 with a lower introductory price sounds very good. In a few months, it should be available for free with the purchase of something else Sony.;)
That's not a bad idea. Free with every A850!
 
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Vivek

Guest
Very interesting, Terry.

How I wish that Pana also would say the same thing about the G2 and sell "production" models with a new sensor.
 

Terry

New member
Yes, Vivek i have mixed feelings about the G2. I would like to try out the new interface and touch screen not sure what to expect on the sensor. They say it is a stop better but I'm not convinced. I get very good pricing on Panny gear so I've preorded a G2 to mess around with and will sell a G1 body.

Need to come up with other sale candidates as I also pre-ordered the NEX5.

I like playing with shiny toys.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well I think the sensors of 43 size are reaching their limits, so I would not expect much better results from the next generation. I think the technology is already pretty much optimized for these small sensors. There are physical limitations. This is why this new system is not "WOW" for me, although it is an appealing design.

Having said that - Sony must be better because they are using an APSC size sensor, so this has definitely an advantage. What I really hate about the new Sony's is that there are no Zeiss lenses available. Only Sony glass - and this is no more than average.

Still love my EP2 and Oly glass though.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Having said that - Sony must be better because they are using an APSC size sensor, so this has definitely an advantage.

I would disagree. NX10 (also a fairly recent sensor technology) with an APS-C sensor size isn't that much better in terms of noise and DR.

I believe there is much improvement that can be brought about in the m4/3rds sensor. It will cost more. A price I would be glad to pay if Pana would come with a back illuminated sensor and cool the sensor if need be.


Sony missed the boat, IMO, for not having used an EXMOR-R sensor in their NEX'.
 

Y.B.Hudson III

New member
yehh... just waiting for a bacK Lite sensor and a gLobal shutter, got the gl@ss, and I don't need their plastic imitation lenses designed by accoutants and focus gropes...:)
 
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Vivek

Guest
yehh... just waiting for a bacK Lite sensor and a gLobal shutter, got the gl@ss, and I don't need their plastic imitation lenses designed by accoutants and focus gropes...:)

You are giving them gl@ss a good workout already. Hard to believe that your Nocti shot on EPL1 betters your earlier (similar) shot on full frame film. :thumbup:

It is quite obvious that Sony announced everything (including the prices) without having the stuff in their hands.
 

douglasf13

New member
The NEX sensor is a slightly revised version of the A550 sensor, which is a very good performer compared to m4/3.

As for EXMOR-R, Sony themselves have stated that the technology isn't relevant to sensors larger than P&S, because the sensor area is so much larger, and moving the electronics to the sensor back shows minimal improvement. Word is that they have no plans for EXMOR-R coming to any APS-C or FF sensors...at least not anytime soon.
 
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Vivek

Guest
As for EXMOR-R, Sony themselves have stated that the technology isn't relevant to sensors larger than P&S, because the sensor area is so much larger, and moving the electronics to the sensor back shows minimal improvement. Word is that they have no plans for EXMOR-R coming to any APS-C or FF sensors...at least not anytime soon.

Why would you believe when Sony ("make believe" :ROTFL:) say there is no advantage when there are at least 2 stops of sensitivity to be gained?

Their tune/story will flip once they do start making larger back illuminated sensors.


I think the NEX3/5 sensor is a version of the A450's (Pentax Kx/K7 as well?!).
It remains to be seen what advantage it would offer in the NEX'.
 

douglasf13

New member
The K7 sensor is built by Samsung. The Kx sensor is a 12MP Sony sensor similar to the 14MP sensor of the A550.

Sony only recently confirmed what many have been theorizing for well over a year. Essentially, because the ratio of sensor area to "metal wiring" is so much greater with APS-C/FF cameras, the metal wiring doesn't block nearly the same percentage of light, compared to P&S sensors. So, moving that wiring to the rear on APS-C won't create nearly the gains that it does on P&S....allegedly. :)

 
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Vivek

Guest
Sony only recently confirmed what many have been theorizing for well over a year. Essentially, because the ratio of sensor area to "metal wiring" is so much greater with APS-C/FF cameras, the metal wiring doesn't block nearly the same percentage of light, compared to P&S sensors. So, moving that wiring to the rear on APS-C won't create nearly the gains that it does on P&S....allegedly. :)
Just imagine how it would be like if the D3s sensor is back illuminated and it gains 2 more stops of sensitivity. ;)

Sony's PR fellows will turn this thing around once they have a larger sensor in the market.
 
"Just imagine how it would be like if the D3s sensor is back illuminated and it gains 2 more stops of sensitivity.

Sony's PR fellows will turn this thing around once they have a larger sensor in the market."

And once the PR chappies realise the value of speed rather than number of pixels.

I took my G1 with the pancake to a charity evening yesterday. I was thrilled at the thought of taking available light pix in a situation where flash would have been intrusive. The subject of my new camera was raised in the car. The first question was as to how many pixels it had - to me one of the less exciting features of the kit.

The shots are smashing! Just what I wanted.

Tony
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Exactly, as soon as the FF EXMOR-xyz sensor is available - hopefully with not much more than 24MP but with higher sensitivity and speed, then suddenly the world will be different again.

I remember the times before Nikon brought the D3 and only had DX format cameras. They were spreading the word that nobody needs FF and they probably never will build a FF camera. Same with Leica M8 - there is NO NEED for a FF digital M - now since almost a year we already have the M9 and suddenly the story is a totally different one.

Will be interesting to see how long it takes before this next generation FF sensors from Sony, Canon or even Kodak (or maybe Foveon) arrive in cameras. I would guess we should see the first models during PK 2010 in September. And BTW - I do not care which technology they use or how they call it, as soon as it delivers!
 
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Vivek

Guest
I remember the times before Nikon brought the D3 and only had DX format cameras. They were spreading the word that nobody needs FF and they probably never will build a FF camera. Same with Leica M8 - there is NO NEED for a FF digital M - now since almost a year we already have the M9 and suddenly the story is a totally different one.

And BTW - I do not care which technology they use or how they call it, as soon as it delivers!

Well said! :thumbs:
 

m3photo

New member
Re: Next Generation FF

Will be interesting to see how long it takes before this next generation FF sensors from Sony, Canon or even Kodak (or maybe Foveon) arrive in cameras. I would guess we should see the first models during PK 2010 in September. And BTW - I do not care which technology they use or how they call it, as soon as it delivers!
Imagine a smaller D700 equivalent mirrorless cam with EVF ... Can't wait :)
 

douglasf13

New member
Remember, though, that trade offs abound. The D3s is wonderful in lowlight, but its green separation isn't great, and you're better off with other cameras for landscape. That's why we still need different cameras tailored for good and bad light.

As far as the Exmor-R thing, there have been many, many arguments made against its usefullness in larger sensors, even before Sony themselves mentioned it. Of course, that's not to say there aren't other ways to improve.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Remember, though, that trade offs abound. The D3s is wonderful in lowlight, but its green separation isn't great, and you're better off with other cameras for landscape. That's why we still need different cameras tailored for good and bad light.

As far as the Exmor-R thing, there have been many, many arguments made against its usefullness in larger sensors, even before Sony themselves mentioned it. Of course, that's not to say there aren't other ways to improve.
While I agree the need for different cameras and brands to be competitive so that us users can benefit, I do not buy the "lack of use" argument of a back illuminated sensor.

If Sony does not or would not make it, I hope someone else will so that I can buy that cam and use it.

I am not going to buy Sony's P&S cams just for the EXMOR-R sensor (though I did flirt with that idea until I discovered how good the Pana NMOS sensor is).;)
 

douglasf13

New member
I'll have to look around for some threads from last year. Essentially, many we're saying that the electronics shown in the diagram above constitute such a small area in relation to the APS-C sensor size that, instead of getting a stop or two improvement, the improvement would be minimal enough to negate the extra manufacturing cost. We'll see. I certainly welcome the technology, even if it only gives a .3 stop improvement, but I think those hinging their buying decision on it will have a long time to wait. :)
 
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