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Should I buy a GH1

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gcogger

Guest
They shouldn't directly affect RAW files, but it's possible that SilkyPix will pic up on those settings and use them when it processes the files. In something like the Adobe converters those settings shouldn't make any difference.
 

Jerry_R

New member
Do the film modes and different noise settings just apply to JPEGS or can this be applied to RAW files?
Have you read my links? Nothing like mentioned above should affect RAWs, but does (processed by LR\ACR) with GH1.
Obviously it is a bug. So far - not resolved.
 

Jerry_R

New member
I'm not sure why someone would take a high-ISO photo with noise reduction turned to negative (isn't that ADDING noise?)
=> when using RAW - because it workarounds Panasonic bug.

NEVER ANY setting adds noise!!! It is there! By setting NR to positive - you just remove some noise together with details.

About the bug - if NR is set negative on some ISO combinations (see my links) - you get smeared RAWs. It means less details, but also can mistakely look as lower noise. After more detailed analyiss - you realise, that you have less noise together with less details.

I rarely, if ever, go above ISO800, and realistically not much even above ISO400.
Then you are not best person to be aksed for diferencies, because on low ISOs there aren't any, except multiaspect sensor of GH1.
 
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richie15

Guest
They shouldn't directly affect RAW files, but it's possible that SilkyPix will pic up on those settings and use them when it processes the files. In something like the Adobe converters those settings shouldn't make any difference.
Thanks, that is what I thought. The RAW converter could make a difference though......

Capture NX used to carry over camera settings from Nikon so I know what you mean
 
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photoSmart42

New member
Then you are not best person to be aksed for diferencies, because on low ISOs there aren't any, except multiaspect sensor of GH1.
Well, I never claimed to be. Just sharing my experiences with my camera because the question was asked. If this were a thread about high ISO performance on the GH1, I wouldn't have replied.
 
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richie15

Guest
I am a low ISO user like Dragos and have not purchased any Panasonic camera for high ISO performance, if I was looking for this I would probably have repurchased another D700.

I have read the dPreview thread which I do think is very informative for the right audience. My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) is that for ISO800 and above the noise can be an issue and the way round this is to change the settings to +1 or +2 so the camera retains this setting. This adjustment should not affect the RAW files but for some bizarre reason does sort the problem. It also looks as if the GH1 has better high ISO performance than the G1 or GF1.

I am now trying to understand the banding issue and have 54 pages to read, unless you can pls summarise?
 

Jerry_R

New member
My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) is that for ISO800 and above the noise can be an issue and the way round this is to change the settings to +1 or +2 so the camera retains this setting. [...] I am now trying to understand the banding issue and have 54 pages to read, unless you can pls summarise?
Richie,
in my opinion for high ISO - use RAW + LR 3 BETA. Then even ISO 2000 is useful on G1, of course with downsized resolution a little, but I don't think it is an issue. In past, with LR 2.6 you should use external programs like Noise Ninja or DFINE. DFINE was not only removing noise, but also banding. Now LR 3 has totally new noise algorithms, and you no more need to buy external software.
Or play with JPG settings and camera body algorithms. But be aware it is not as powerful as LR3 or DFINE - looking ALWAYS on two aspects:
- minimise noise
- keep as much as possible details

To summarize banding - GH1s from older factory have it, GH1s from newer have it minimised, but still more than G1\GF1 on higher ISOs. How to know what you buy? I do not know other answer than by testing yourself before buying.

I had 3 GH1s, so know how it looked through time.
 
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richie15

Guest
Richie,
in my opinion for high ISO - use RAW + LR 3 BETA. Then even ISO 2000 is useful on G1, of course with downsized resolution a little, but I don't think it is an issue. In past, with LR 2.6 you should use external programs like Noise Ninja or DFINE. DFINE was not only removing noise, but also banding. Now LR 3 has totally new noise algorithms, and you no more need to buy external software.
Or play with JPG settings and camera body algorithms. But be aware it is not as powerful as LR3 or DFINE - looking ALWAYS on two aspects:
- minimise noise
- keep as much as possible details

To summarize banding - GH1s from older factory have it, GH1s from newer have it minimised, but still more than G1\GF1 on higher ISOs. How to know what you buy? I do not know other answer than by testing yourself before buying.

I had 3 GH1s, so know how it looked through time.

Thanks Jerry that is very helpful and saved me a lot of reading,

I think I am going to be ok on the noise issue. I shoot in RAW with pp in Capture One which I have found to be the best raw converter to protect colour, as I said I will not venture over ISO 400 and have dfine if I need it, 1 question do I need to change the Noise to +1 as a default?

The banding issues is a bit more of a problem, I have found a used GH1 with this being purchased new in March 2010, so hopefully its the latest batch. Is the banding apparent across all ISO?
 
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gcogger

Guest
Hang on a minute - I'm a bit lost! If you don't care about video, and don't shoot over ISO400, why are you wanting to spend money switching to a GH1?
 
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richie15

Guest
Hang on a minute - I'm a bit lost! If you don't care about video, and don't shoot over ISO400, why are you wanting to spend money switching to a GH1?
I am interested in the size of the sensor. I like the 16:9 aspect ratio and I find that the G1 and GF1 stretch the image. I am hoping the GH1 will be a bit better, particularly with the 7-14.
 
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gcogger

Guest
I'm not sure what you mean by "stretch the image"? The difference between the G1 and GH1 for 16:9 images is simply that the GH1 uses a slightly larger sensor area, capturing 4352 x 2448 pixels rather than 4000 x 2248 pixels. Neither camera should distort the image in any way.
 
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gcogger

Guest
Sorry if it sounds like I'm 'grilling' you by the way :) I'm considering the switch to a GH1 myself, so I'm interested in your reasons.

(As a total digression, how do I edit my posts on here? I'm not seeing the EDIT button mentioned in the FAQ).
 

Amin

Active member
All the MFT cameras other the the GH1 crop the top and bottom of the frame to go from 4:3 to 3:2 or 16:9 aspect ratio. This means that in 16:9, while the horizontal angle of view is maintained compared to 4:3, the vertical angle of view is reduced.

The GH1 maintains the diagonal angle of view in 4:3, 3:2, and 16:9. This means that in 16:9, the horizontal angle of view is increased compared to 4:3, and the vertical angle of view is reduced, albeit not to the extent that it would be reduced on other MFT cameras.

The bottom line is that 16:9 on GH1 makes any lens wider than 16:9 on the other MFT cameras, and 16:9 uses more sensor area on GH1 than on other MFT cameras.

As for banding, Nik Dfine does a good job of debanding GH1 images. For example, this is a nominal ISO 3200 (ISO 4176 per DxOmark) GH1 image. Banding is very obvious:



Here it is again after Dfine:



Dfine debanding can result in some odd effects. For example, if you look closely around the edge of the lamp, there is a halo effect inside and outside of the edge. However, it's pretty easy to strike a balance, and any untoward effects are usually much easier to clean up than the banding itself.

Here's another example, this time ISO 1600 (ISO 2154 according to DxOmark data) and pushed a bit in Lightroom. This was shot through thick and dirty glass at a local zoo. Please ignore the reflections, which were unavoidable and do not have anything to do with the GH1 image quality:



After Dfine:



I personally don't often find banding to be an issue with the GH1 (and I bought an early model), and when it is, Dfine almost always does the trick.

As for the original question "Should I buy a GH1 right now", I'd wait and see what the GH2 offers.
 
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Jerry_R

New member
Is the banding apparent across all ISO?
The more UNDEREXPOSED picture, the more banding. So it can appear in fact even at ISO 100. But not such big like on pictures above, so for many it will be acceptable and they would notice only at 100% zoom and when directed.
But it never happens with G1\GF1 - in the same conditions (underexposed ISO 100).

One more comment about multiapsect sensor. What I observed is - 7-14mm lens @16:9 with GH1 gives wider result, than G1\GF1 - but slightly less sharp on side areas. Is it acceptable? For many yes, no doubts. Just remember, if you would like to make very big prints. It is probably result of using more center part of the lens by G1, GF1 and less need of correction of lens distortion.
Plus - whatever is in center of frame is much more further due to wider angle (GH1), so is smaller, less detailed.

So it all depends how you want to use wide angle. My feeling is now, that GH1 sensor is like it is - because of VIDEO (16:9). Not because of better photographic capabilities.

Regarding 16:9 - maybe find a shop that sells both G1 and GH1. Or buy GH1 from shop, that accepts returns and check yourself?
 
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richie15

Guest
Jerry that does worry me a bit. I am going to get one, I have got a good deal on a used one and then I can compare against the G1 and GF1, might seem a bit crazy but I am sold on the Panasonic G series and want to make sure I have the best camera for what I require.
 

photoSmart42

New member
OK, Jerry, help me understand what I should be looking for in terms of banding, because all I see is normal noise. These are taken @ISO3200 out of my GH1, at -3EV in manual mode, Standard film mode:

Panasonic GH1 + 14-140mm @14mm; f/4; 1/400s @ISO3200
RAW saved as JPEG:


In-camera JPEG:


Let me know if you need me up link the full-size uploads.
 

Amin

Active member
Dragos, there is both thin and broad horizontal banding in your example, but on the whole, it is very subtle. I wouldn't notice banding in this sample image without looking for it. Look at the top of the paper (towards the upper right), and you will see thin white lines spanning across horizontally. In the dark background to the right of the paper, there are some thin dark and light horizontal bands. There is also some very broad horizontal banding of color pattern noise, but that is true of many (? all) cameras at their limits and nothing specific to the GH1.

One reason this image may have so little banding (relative to other underexposed ISO 3200 GH1 images) is that the exposure time was very short (1/400s). Then again, if you never notice banding with your GH1, then maybe you got one of the later production ones, which supposedly have less banding.

I would not discourage anyone from buying the GH1, early production or late, on the basis of banding. It hasn't been a major issue for me at all, and as I stated above, Dfine addresses it well when it pops up. I do think the GH1 has the best image quality of any of the first gen MFT cameras, though not by much.
 

Jonas

Active member
Dragos, there is both thin and broad horizontal banding in your example, but on the whole, it is very subtle.
It is subtle because the image is underexposed and not corrected when developed.

I would not discourage anyone from buying the GH1, early production or late, on the basis of banding. It hasn't been a major issue for me at all, and as I stated above, Dfine addresses it well when it pops up. I do think the GH1 has the best image quality of any of the first gen MFT cameras, though not by much.
I fully agree.

Checking your image again Dragos I see the banding without exactly looking for it. I know since the days the Pentax K10D was released that we can sensitive or not to this sort of banding.

As mentioned your image is purposely underexposed. Let's say it was underexposed by necessity, that the light in it was all you could get in a certain situation. Then you would like to increase the "exposure" in your raw converter.... and you would get blotchy noise and banding all over. (This also applies to shadow areas in normally exposed images.)

I can see this with my G1 as well but not as often. I sometimes stack images taken at -2, 0 and +2 steps of EV comp to get around problems with noisy shadows and blown highlights (the sky). But hey, I did the same with my 5D and 5D2, just less often.

regards,

Jonas
 

photoSmart42

New member
Amin, is there a different sort of image I could take where I would see if I have an issue better? I'm trying to figure out under what conditions this banding occurs, whether I have it or not, and what I can do about it if it happens. Would a photo with the lens cap on do it?

To be honest I'm still not sure of the situation in which I'd take an underexposed photo at ISO3200 in bulb mode - the elements in that setup seem to go against each other - but if such a situation happens upon me I'd like to know the limitation of my ability to capture it successfully.
 
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