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Thread: New compact micro 4/3!!!

  1. #51
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    One advantage this design would have... no need for a focal plane shutter - it would be a near silent central shutter in the lens.

    We do need a global shutter - and I'm sure it must be close... hoping it will arrive with the high spec m4/3rds camera due from Olympus - or maybe the GH2.

    Cheers

    Brian

  2. #52
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Brian they claim they are in possession of the technology for a global shutter, and yes there are offset advantages to having it, think about flash sync too. The point is it has long been considered the holy grail for the future of digital cameras because it enables modes of image taking and processing that will skyrocket noise performance and DR, but you cant do that without multiple exposures. That it seems has been locked down by Kodak, and it just might be why Olympus (if yet more rumours are to be believed) are going Kodak this time around.

    There was an interview by DSLR magazine staff and Panasonic that asked just that question,
    did you happen to see that ?

  3. #53
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    No, I'm sorry I missed that... Olympus do (pay to) have the advantage of going to any innovative supplier of sensors.

    Panasonic must be enjoying increasing economies of scale as m4/3rds takes off... and it would make sense for Olympus to have a second supplier - I do hope the Kodak thing is true and gives us a significant improvement.

    Cheers

    Brian

  4. #54
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    aok lets fix that

    in translation you can only get a sense of what is happening

    http://translate.google.com/translat...&sl=auto&tl=en

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Unless fast lenses (faster than the 20/1.7) are made for the NMOS sensored cams, they have very limited use.

    Slow zooms from Oly (solid plastic construction, modestly priced with over the top light proofing) and Pana aren't going to keep selling these cams.

    Pana could improve the S/R performance by a few fold. Cool the damned sensor module if they have to and for heavensake, put the whole thing in a Faraday cage!

  6. #56
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Thanks for that Riley,

    PANASONIC (Mr. Inoue)
    With his face a bit of doubt: "No, for now, at the production level we are not working in that direction (multi exposure HDR). It seems that Kodak, in the USA if they could be doing ...
    In terms of sensors, we must not forget that, as in any area, there is the issue of patents, quite a complex subject "
    Ouch! maybe they could pay Kodak for the patent?

    Cheers

    Brian
    Last edited by Brian Mosley; 30th June 2010 at 03:14.

  7. #57
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Unless fast lenses (faster than the 20/1.7) are made for the NMOS sensored cams, they have very limited use.

    Slow zooms from Oly (solid plastic construction, modestly priced with over the top light proofing) and Pana aren't going to keep selling these cams.
    HI Vivek
    Do you think that the majority of the kind of photographer who is using these cameras is going to mind slow zooms? I don't think so, certainly I don't.

    What does bug me though is that I would like a DECENT slow zoom with a 24mm wide (24-70 would be fine). If I want fast I can use the pana 1.7, or just a different camera. I'd rather have slow than big to be quite honest (as long as it's good quality slow).

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  8. #58
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Thanks for that Riley,



    Ouch! maybe they could pay Kodak for the patent?

    Cheers

    Brian
    theyve had a few duels with Kodak patent attorneys before, .... and lost, but of course this is business and money talks, just as they pay for a bayer license they could pay for this. We can only assume Panasonic do not see the worth of it on the price Kodak must be asking

    its that lowest common denominator thing again ....

  9. #59
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Vivek
    Do you think that the majority of the kind of photographer who is using these cameras is going to mind slow zooms? I don't think so, certainly I don't.

    What does bug me though is that I would like a DECENT slow zoom with a 24mm wide (24-70 would be fine). If I want fast I can use the pana 1.7, or just a different camera. I'd rather have slow than big to be quite honest (as long as it's good quality slow).

    Hi Jono, Speaking of my preference, I have a few dozen fast manual focusing primes at my disposal.

    Oly-14-42- I wrecked it. The mount is very well constructed and would be useful.

    Pana 14-45, flex wire is damaged. If I find a replacement, I may use it.

    Pana 45-200. Mostly unused. Sitting pretty.

    Oly-D 17/2.8 Sparingly used now.

    Pana 20/1.7. IR lens. Fabulous for this.

    Personally, I would stay away from buying any Olympus m4/3rds lens. I am convinced of their "quality".

  10. #60
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Jono, Speaking of my preference, I have a few dozen fast manual focusing primes at my disposal.

    Oly-14-42- I wrecked it. The mount is very well constructed and would be useful.

    Pana 14-45, flex wire is damaged. If I find a replacement, I may use it.

    Pana 45-200. Mostly unused. Sitting pretty.

    Oly-D 17/2.8 Sparingly used now.

    Pana 20/1.7. IR lens. Fabulous for this.

    Personally, I would stay away from buying any Olympus m4/3rds lens. I am convinced of their "quality".
    I can see why you need convincing.
    I also broke a 14-42 . . . but it was after submerging it in rushing water for several minutes! Otherwise all the lenses seem to be okay.

    Just this guy you know

  11. #61
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Blimey Vivek, the lenses are designed for taking pictures... not hammering nails, what have you been doing with them?

    I'm afraid these are all 'consumable' cameras... including the lenses - I doubt they'll be in service in 30 years time (unlike my Hexanon collection )

    Cheers

    Brian

  12. #62
    Senior Member Y.B.Hudson III's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    The Panasonic AG AF 100 (m4/3 pro camcorder- yet to be released) in Panasonic's latest press release features a Zeiss Ultra Prime Lens with a 3rd party adapter on that Camera. interesting
    Last edited by Y.B.Hudson III; 30th June 2010 at 08:16.

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    I can say this about the Oly-D 14-42:

    A lot of work has gone into that mount. A pity they would ignore the front side of the lens.

    The reason i took that 14-42 apart was to check if I can switch the flex wire from it to the one in Pana 14-45. Unfortunately, the Oly-D's is soldered either way and is a no go.

    The rear most element of the Oly-D is an aspherical element attached to the mount (and stays put when the other part of the zoom wobbles around wildly). Putting it back with proper alignment (Olympus use thin spacers to the screws to align it) is not a possibility for me. Even if I could align it, why bother since I have no use at all for it.

    I do some possibilities for the stainless steel mount of the Oly-D 14-42.

    How the Pana 14-45's flex wire got ripped is a secret.

    Not a big loss. I do not miss having it at all.

    My Oly-D 17/2.8 is black (shows "paint" loss now).

  14. #64
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    According to the same source:
    - The lens starts at 24mm and with f/2.0 (like the LX3!) but it has 3x zoom (unlike the 2.5x zoom on the LX3)
    - It will be the smallest camera with FourThirds sensor ever made

    Not bad so far. Lets see what they say price wise. The e-pl1 costs 600us$, the LX3 costs around 400us$...so Iīm thinking this camera will cost about 500us$.

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Y.B.Hudson III View Post
    ... But then again...it's a clueless design philosophy that comes out with a compact m4/3 body (GF1) with video capacity on one hand, and then introduces a compact fast lens (20mm, 1.7) that is virtualy useless for video, because of the auto focus noise... go figure?
    No videographer serious about their work uses auto focus. Only clueless hobbyists demand that kind of nonsensical, useless stuff.

  16. #66
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    I have worked with video for 10 years. I have had work shown on mtv and several other tv channels, I also received several awards from shot films Iīv made. Most of my work was done with tools way worst than the GF1 with the 20mm. I do agree that the 20mm is not ideal for video work, but I would not go as far as saying itīs for hobbyists.
    Check this out: http://www.vimeo.com/13005574

  17. #67
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    According to the same source:
    - The lens starts at 24mm and with f/2.0 (like the LX3!) but it has 3x zoom (unlike the 2.5x zoom on the LX3)
    - It will be the smallest camera with FourThirds sensor ever made

    Not bad so far. Lets see what they say price wise. The e-pl1 costs 600us$, the LX3 costs around 400us$...so Iīm thinking this camera will cost about 500us$.
    Hi Rafa, is that 24mm EFL at the wide end?

    I wonder if the lens will be all motor driven (extending, zooming, focusing) like the LX2?

    I have a feeling it will be comparable, price wise to the X1.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I have worked with video for 10 years. I have had work shown on mtv and several other tv channels, I also received several awards from shot films Iīv made. Most of my work was done with tools way worst than the GF1 with the 20mm. I do agree that the 20mm is not ideal for video work, but I would not go as far as saying itīs for hobbyists.
    Check this out: http://www.vimeo.com/13005574
    . . . . . the video made with the 20mm pancake is pretty dam good!

    Life is Grand!

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    No videographer serious about their work uses auto focus. Only clueless hobbyists demand that kind of nonsensical, useless stuff.


    Mind you, Godfrey didn't say that only a clueless hobbyist would shoot video with the 20 f1/7. Just that only a clueless hobbyist would use autofocus for video . . . not quite the same thing.

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  20. #70
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post


    Mind you, Godfrey didn't say that only a clueless hobbyist would shoot video with the 20 f1/7. Just that only a clueless hobbyist would use autofocus for video . . . not quite the same thing.
    Nor did I say otherwise...not in so many words, that is

  21. #71
    Senior Member Y.B.Hudson III's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    yehh... Godfrey, another Serious Panny apologist... *


    *hehehehe... is t' checK in t' maiL?

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Nor did I say otherwise...not in so many words, that is
    I thought your pussyfootedness was I'm afraid my interjection was less so.

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  23. #73
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I have worked with video for 10 years. I have had work shown on mtv and several other tv channels, I also received several awards from shot films Iīv made. Most of my work was done with tools way worst than the GF1 with the 20mm. I do agree that the 20mm is not ideal for video work, but I would not go as far as saying itīs for hobbyists.
    Check this out: http://www.vimeo.com/13005574
    Flipping heck, that is phenomenal!

    Thanks for the link Rafa

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    According to the same source:
    - The lens starts at 24mm and with f/2.0 (like the LX3!) but it has 3x zoom (unlike the 2.5x zoom on the LX3)
    - It will be the smallest camera with FourThirds sensor ever made

    Not bad so far. Lets see what they say price wise. The e-pl1 costs 600us$, the LX3 costs around 400us$...so Iīm thinking this camera will cost about 500us$.
    Hi Rafa
    This sounds really fab to me - I've been rabbiting on about a sensor size between m4/3 and 1/1.63" to allow for a camera just like this. If they can do it with a m4/3 sensor then so much the better.

    I have to say, Like Brian, I would have thought they would do best with it really nice quality with a bigger price tag - a Leica badged version might come too I guess, if it didn't conflict too much with the X1.

    Still - I mustn't get my hopes up, it sounds too good to be true.

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  25. #75
    Senior Member Y.B.Hudson III's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Yehh... t' ambient sound documented in taht video was astounding

    great capture...

  26. #76
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Itīs supposed to be announced in July so we shouldnīt have to guess much longer. From what Iīve read the camera will be smaller than the GF1 and just a little bit bigger than the LX3. With some luck we will all soon have the quality of the micro 4/3 sensor inside our jeans pockets
    Last edited by Rawfa; 1st July 2010 at 09:18.

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Itīs supposed to be announced in July so we shouldn-t have to guess much longer. From what Iīve read the camera will be smalled than the GF1 and just a little bit bigger than the LX3. With some luck we will all soon have the quality of the micro 4/3 sensor inside our jeans pockets
    Wouldn't that be wonderful . . . mind you, the LX3 is a pretty tight squeeze in a pair of jeans!

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  28. #78
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    yeah I think with the surprisingly small size of the Sony theyre going to have to show they can do smaller

  29. #79
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    This could be the ideal camera that all snapshot photographers have been waiting for.

  30. #80
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Maybe they will use their new gapless sensor. Panasonic already started mass production on a similar solution as Canonīs. Noise levels are expected to be 1 to 1.5 stops better in the high ISO range.


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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    This could be the ideal camera that all snapshot photographers have been waiting for.
    Snapshots vs. photos are a matter of intent, not gear IMO. Plenty of expensive DSLR owners take snapshots, and plenty of camera phone owners take well-composed photographs. I'd call this the ideal large-sensor portable P&S that a lot of people have been waiting for. We'll find out soon enough I hope.
    -Dragos
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  32. #82
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Youīre right. But a lot of DSLR owners also use their DSLRs for point and shoot...anyway, it could be an ideal camera for some things, for some people, to be used in some places hahaha

  33. #83
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Maybe they will use their new gapless sensor. Panasonic already started mass production on a similar solution as Canonīs. Noise levels are expected to be 1 to 1.5 stops better in the high ISO range.

    that was a quote from Chuck Westfall, and note I say was, its some years old and not entirely accurate

    in effect I think Canon picked up a half stop with gapless microlenses, which explains the noise difference between G1 and 5DII, where G1 loses about a half stop shot at the equivalent aperture.

    right now however Canons next move will go further with stacked twin lens microlenses

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Y.B.Hudson III View Post
    yehh... Godfrey, another Serious Panny apologist... *


    *hehehehe... is t' checK in t' maiL?
    Obviously, you just want to annoy people. Stupid name-calling and cutesy insinuations is why I so rarely read your posts. They lack any substance or insight.

    These behaviors say more about you than anything else.

  35. #85
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    gezus,
    a bit like dpreview without the shotguns...

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I have worked with video for 10 years. I have had work shown on mtv and several other tv channels, I also received several awards from shot films Iīv made. Most of my work was done with tools way worst than the GF1 with the 20mm. I do agree that the 20mm is not ideal for video work, but I would not go as far as saying itīs for hobbyists.
    Check this out: http://www.vimeo.com/13005574
    Lovely work, Rawfa. Thanks for posting the link.

    I didn't say or mean that the 20mm was ideal for video work, nor that it was for hobbyists.

    Do you use continuous autofocus in your videography? If so, how often?

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    gezus,
    a bit like dpreview without the shotguns...
    LOL ... it's a friendlier bunch of goofballs around here. They use Nerf guns. ;-)

  38. #88
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    gezus,
    a bit like dpreview without the shotguns...


    Cheers

    Brian

  39. #89
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    [white flag]
    AF is surely more handy for short crewed situations without a focus puller

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    I always thought anyone serious about video used an external audio device...

    But again, what do you all think about a constant (?) f/2 and 3x zoom being smaller than anything else yet seen? I still find this hard to believe.

  41. #91
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    I missed the constant aperture bit... would be lovely, but I agree unlikely.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Only clueless hobbyists demand that kind of nonsensical, useless stuff.
    . . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Stupid name-calling and cutesy insinuations is why I so rarely read your posts. They lack any substance or insight.

    These behaviors say more about you than anything else.

    Just this guy you know

  43. #93
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    I always thought anyone serious about video used an external audio device...

    But again, what do you all think about a constant (?) f/2 and 3x zoom being smaller than anything else yet seen? I still find this hard to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I missed the constant aperture bit... would be lovely, but I agree unlikely.

    Cheers

    Brian
    Yes, wouldn't it be nice - but I agree, it sounds too much like the 'magic camera' to be real

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Would it make anyone "clueless" when pointing out:

    1. Pana's flash exposures are unreliable while using manual focus lenses while a more relatively newcomer like Samsung could get it right from the beginning? (It did take a firmware update for the G1 to make amends and as Hudson reported, the G2 got it correct, finally)

    2. Are Pana's cams useful for amateur astronomers when the sensor is prone to producing random "starry" skies on its own in long exposures?

    3. The Pana 20/1.7 focuses faster, contrast is tolerable when using it on a hacked G1 for infrared. The lens does fluoresce in UV (ie. when used in sunny conditions) due to the use of some "exotic" glass elements that are cheap. The "clueless" would have a hard time figuring out why the lens make erratic exposures under different conditions. Unfortunately, at least for the "clueless", there is no possible software fix for that. Perhaps Panasonic do have a clue and would use better/non fluorescing glass in their future lenses.

    4. Are any of the users "clueless" if they have no idea why there is a metal stripe on the hand gripe of every Pana cam with an NMOS sensor?
    (Would Pana issue a "how to hold your cam correctly to make the bets out of it" along the lines of iPhone4?)

    I am sure Panasonic know better but just take all the buyers/users of their cams for granted as being "clueless".

  45. #95
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Jono,

    My use of the term "clueless" was a reflection of Hudson's use of the term in the section of his comment that I quoted.

    If you're going to quote me, quote in a manner that includes the context properly. Otherwise, you are changing the meaning of the post in an attempt to continue the stupid name calling and cutesy insinuations.

    Thank you for your compliance and courtesy.

  46. #96
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    ...for some reason I'm reminded of that home with the diagonal towel racks...

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    No videographer serious about their work uses auto focus. Only clueless hobbyists demand that kind of nonsensical, useless stuff.
    Aren't there AF drive gears for focus on all Zeiss cine lenses? Are they actually using some kind of hand-cranked gear system to focus?

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    4. Are any of the users "clueless" if they have no idea why there is a metal stripe on the hand gripe of every Pana cam with an NMOS sensor?
    (Would Pana issue a "how to hold your cam correctly to make the bets out of it" along the lines of iPhone4?)
    I'll bite. What's the reason there's a metal stripe on the hand grip? Does it close some sort of contact when it's held? Is it a heat sink?
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    Aren't there AF drive gears for focus on all Zeiss cine lenses? Are they actually using some kind of hand-cranked gear system to focus?
    Professional video teams use a remotely actuated control to operate the focusing mount so that one person (the "focus puller") manages focusing while the "camera operator" manages framing, camera movement and when it is recording. (In television studio teams, the camera operator doesn't control the 'when' ... that's controlled from the control room by the switcher operator, acting on the instructions of the director.) The focus puller usually has an ancillary monitor at their disposal so they can see what's going on while attending to the focus task. Additional personnel handle sound capture timing as well as levels and dynamics.

    Working video at that level is a totally different thing from a one person field news reporter with a handycam and a mike. ... :-)

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    Re: New compact micro 4/3!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Jono,
    .

    Thank you for your compliance and courtesy.
    Godfrey
    It was a pleasure

    Just this guy you know

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