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Thread: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

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    Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    With the introduction G2 by Panasonic, it looks like an admission that they do not have any improvements to their original G1 sensor.

    Since Olympus are dependent on Panasonic for sensors, there is little hope that they can do anything other than making EP to EPL and such.

    What happened to Fuji's purported cam?

    Is the future of m4/3rds tied down by Panasonic's "starry sky" NMOS sensor?

    BTW, here is a blog that is related to this post:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/vivek-iyer/4775896864/

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Not sure if this is a real improvement....

    MF confirm light. But, to be honest... I just got a G1 and no lens yet. I am getting an adapter for my M42 55mm lens, but, I don't have it yet. So, I can't find anywhere about a MF confirm light... just the 5x or 10x mag. in the VF.

    The only real big upgrade I could see is a much better sensor with really clean 1600 and 3200... Although 1600 isn't bad if processed properly.

    Well, with no mirror lag... a higher burst rate is possible... 5fps would be nice. Hell. I had that with a Canon EOS 630 film camera. Maybe a different type of shutter may be needed though.

    Better Low Light EFV performance...?

    The G1/G2 seem to be pretty complete as far a well thought out camera. G2 only adding a touch LCD as a major addition + HD Video... Replacing the G1/GH1 effectively.

    But, changes are typically small... even though the G1 was a huge advancement in some respects. The first mirror-less Interchangeable lens camera.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    I think we'll see something different at Photokina with the GH2. Panasonic HAS TO do something to remain competitive. I suspect the GH2 sensor will be different and better than the GH1 sensor, bringing with it higher resolution (14MP), increased ISO performance to 3200 over the current 800, improved DR, and some other features. I think Canon will bring out at least a 5D3 and a 60D with improved video performance that will put even the hacked GH1 to shame, leaving Panasonic to compete on price and portability alone unless they bring something that's at least comparable in performance (stills and video). Nikon has also announced a GH1 competitor of sorts, so it seems like the two other giants are recognizing this new market segment, and getting ready to dive in.

    Will anything Panasonic releases solve the 'starry sky' issues you're seeing? I'm not sure, and probably not since it doesn't seem to affect IQ except in a very few select instances (I certainly haven't encountered it that I know of). I do think they're tied to their NMOS sensor technology given that they've built all those new plants for that technology.

    Should be an interesting end of the year in photography to be sure.
    -Dragos
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Panasonic HAS TO do something to remain competitive.
    I agree but they have not.

    Why would "starry skies" not affect "IQ"? Should Pana and Oly sell their cams labeled, "for limited use only"?

    I am not very keen on what sort of improvements that Pana/Cano/Niko, etc have to offer for videos. Nice dreams you have about a GH2! :-)

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Nice dreams you have about a GH2! :-)
    Well, it's all I've got until they actually release something =). I still love my GH1, and the GH2 would have to be something special for me to consider upgrading.
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Since Olympus are dependent on Panasonic for sensors, there is little hope that they can do anything other than making EP to EPL and such.
    Wasn't there a rumour of Kodak making a comeback to 4/3rds for the E-3 replacement? makes sense for Olympus to be independent of Panasonic imho...

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Yes, that would make sense.

    Unfortunately, Pana have the best EVF (no pixelly sharp ones like that of Olympus' "optional" EVF) and that very useful swivel TFT.

    Olympus may coat their body with thin tin sheets but they mainly make half useful cams (ie no integrated EVF).

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    yehh... don't get me [email protected] on t' Olympus toys... but t' teenage girls think they are cute...

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Panasonic lenses are designed to optimize "auto focus" performance, and not optimized to balance with the current m4/3sensor. If you shoot good cine glass or fast Mandler designed Leitz glass wide open...then the dynamic range of the sensor isn't much of a problem...*


    * my intuitive take on t' subject... the last press release for the new Panasonic m4/3 camcorder, featured it with an adapted Ziess Ultra Prime...

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    Glass

    There is room for improvement in the native m4/3 lenses! I'd love to see more high quality glass. The Panasonic 20/1.7 is very good, the rest are good but not great. While perhaps we've hit a plateau in the camera bodies themselves I'd like to see a focus on better lenses.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes, that would make sense.

    Unfortunately, Pana have the best EVF (no pixelly sharp ones like that of Olympus' "optional" EVF) and that very useful swivel TFT.

    Olympus may coat their body with thin tin sheets but they mainly make half useful cams (ie no integrated EVF).
    Glad we're making sense... unfortunately I'm not following you on the EVF - the Olympus removeable EVF is a bit better than the fixed (and a lot better than the removeable) Panasonic EVF.

    I actually find that I'm removing the EVF in the street, and popping it back on for the occasional shots where I need it. One EVF serves the E-P2 and E-PL1 too... which is environmentally friendly as well as cost effective

    I'm sure we'll get a body with integrated EVF in due course... but I'm quite happy without one on the E-P1, and only use it 20% of the time on the E-P2/PL1 - so it's nice to be able to stow it away.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Olympus toys?... grow up!!... at least they are a real camera company :-) Challenge you to a drop test... but you have to go first :-)

    K

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Kevin, I am so taken by the curtain they used to cover the EP.

    I would love to buy that Olympus curtain.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Y.B.Hudson III View Post
    Panasonic lenses are designed to optimize "auto focus" performance, and not optimized to balance with the current m4/3sensor. If you shoot good cine glass or fast Mandler designed Leitz glass wide open...then the dynamic range of the sensor isn't much of a problem...*


    * my intuitive take on t' subject... the last press release for the new Panasonic m4/3 camcorder, featured it with an adapted Ziess Ultra Prime...

    This one was shot using the Pana 20/1.7 on a hacked G1 (Hoya R72 over the lens). If the DR, etc approaches this in visible light, I will be very very satisfied.

    I am convinced that it isn't the lens alone but the problem is with the cam and the sensor/processor in particular.


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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Threads like this are always amusing.

    What's the point? No one here knows for sure anyway. Anyone in the know from Panasonic or Olympus who did know something wouldn't say as they would be under NDA.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Glad we're making sense... unfortunately I'm not following you on the EVF - the Olympus removeable EVF is a bit better than the fixed (and a lot better than the removeable) Panasonic EVF. ..
    Purely a matter of opinion ... I prefer the view through the G1/GH1/G2 over the E-P2/E-PL1 with their viewfinder (the G1 finder is brighter and cleaner to my eye).

    Having spent some time with the GF1 without the optional EVF, I wouldn't buy it or any of the Olympus models without an optional EVF. And there I would pick the E-P2 for the better EVF and for its support of the EC14/EC20 teleconverters, even though I like the GF1 body controls more.

    All kinds of ways to slice the cake, eh?

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Threads like this are always amusing.

    What's the point? No one here knows for sure anyway. Anyone in the know from Panasonic or Olympus who did know something wouldn't say as they would be under NDA.
    I think there's some value to speculative threads like this. For me personally, it sets a stake in the ground regarding the features that would make me want to upgrade, so when to final product does come out I'm more prepared to make a buy/wait decision. It certainly gives me something to look forward to, and to perhaps get excited over possibly getting it.

    I suppose there's also an off-chance that someone at Panasonic/Olympus is listening, and thus there might be some influence over the direction of at least the marketing, and perhaps even actual camera features as they finalize the product.

    If nothing else, it's fun =).
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post

    I suppose there's also an off-chance that someone at Panasonic/Olympus is listening, and thus there might be some influence over the direction of at least the marketing, and perhaps even actual camera features as they finalize the product.
    In that case, could I record my wish for a G3? I would like to see ISO12,800 (just to be able to dial in that number should be comforting. No need for real high ISO "performance") and voice activated controls of the camera. No buttons at all since the paint on them wear off anyway. Besides, it is a lot more hygienic.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    In that case, could I record my wish for a G3? I would like to see ISO12,800 (just to be able to dial in that number should be comforting. No need for real high ISO "performance") and voice activated controls of the camera. No buttons at all since the paint on them wear off anyway. Besides, it is a lot more hygienic.
    Doesn't that describe the NEX?
    -Dragos
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Close but no cigar!

    [Voice activated controls would mean no video is the feeble hope but I am sure that they will find a way to sneak in video somehow. ]
    Last edited by Vivek; 12th July 2010 at 15:46.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    I think there's some value to speculative threads like this. For me personally, it sets a stake in the ground regarding the features that would make me want to upgrade, so when to final product does come out I'm more prepared to make a buy/wait decision. It certainly gives me something to look forward to, and to perhaps get excited over possibly getting it.

    I suppose there's also an off-chance that someone at Panasonic/Olympus is listening, and thus there might be some influence over the direction of at least the marketing, and perhaps even actual camera features as they finalize the product.

    If nothing else, it's fun =).
    I always have my list of "what I'd pay real money for" features that I look for whenever equipment is announced ... I don't need a thread on a forum to figure that out. Considering what I already have

    - more robust build quality with weather sealing
    - larger raw buffer
    - full support of all FourThirds SLR lenses (EX25, EC14, EC20 are the current omissions)
    - a more robust auto-flash system with wireless RF triggering

    are the big items. More sensitivity with lower noise? ... yeah, always nice, but it's rare I need it. 12Mpixel is fine for the work I'm doing now too. Faster AF? ... well, for me AF is a convenience, I rarely count on it. Nice when it works at all.

    Otherwise, I don't really see the need to become excited about 'what to buy next'. For the most part, what I've already got isn't being exploited as much as it could be so
    'what to buy next' is just an exercise to incite fantasy appetites for things which are designed to empty my wallet. This is what what marketing departments love to do with customers: make them consumers rather than photographers.


    ..."Equipment so often gets in the way of Photography." ...

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I always have my list of "what I'd pay real money for" features that I look for whenever equipment is announced ... I don't need a thread on a forum to figure that out.
    I'm simply sharing my personal list of "what I'd pay real money for" in terms of a next generation camera it if came out. I don't need a forum to help me figure that out either at this point, but if nobody was willing to share their own opinions and experiences we wouldn't have much of a forum, right?
    -Dragos
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    This the "ultimate" wish of any photo gear buyer. Where to find "not so real money" to buy photo gear.

    Couple of possibilities spring to mind- start a blog and add advertisements or better yet start a forum and start selling gear advertisements through it to finance the gear purchases?

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Couple of possibilities spring to mind- start a blog and add advertisements..
    Actually, I'm working on that as we [speak].
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Olympus m/4/3...Toys...er ... a clip on viewfinder that costs almost the price of the camera body, has no locking mechanism (easily knocked off). A slow, noisy focusing lens...but of course pros Video~graphers don't auto focus... But it is made by a real camera company...your right there, Kevin...*



    * in fairness, I'll say I do own both an EPL1 and G2... the olympus is painfully clumbsy to use in the field (with MFLs), compared to the G2.
    Last edited by Y.B.Hudson III; 12th July 2010 at 18:09.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    I'm simply sharing my personal list of "what I'd pay real money for" in terms of a next generation camera it if came out. ...
    I just did.

    I'd much rather have forum discussions where we talked about ways and means of using the equipment we have rather than pondering what to buy next, or what we just bought, or complaining about what we just bought because the newer one is now available.

    A forum where we enjoyed aesthetic discussions about our photographs, not in interminable "fun with" threads (although they're nice and have their place) but in appropriately lengthy discussion threads concentrating on a single or group of photographs made by a particular photographer with a particular intent. Where the art and craft of photographic endeavor was the key thing, not what the latest gizmo brought.

    I can think of a dozen or more things I'd rather discuss in a photography forum, even an equipment forum, rather than the usual "which one should I buy", "what I got isn't doing what I want", and "what do I want next" topics.

    =8-0

    Am I in a crabby mood or what? ];-) "don't mind me, I'm just annoyed today."

    ... went through my office and found I had frickin' SEVEN Minolta 16 cameras hiding in a drawer. I don't even remember when or where I acquired the darn things! I want to get RID of all this accreted junk! ... Anyone want to play with a Minolta 16? I've got a film cassette for all but one of the cameras. $18 apiece, including first class shipping. Help me, please ... !

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    Actually, I'm working on that as we [speak].
    Let us know how that goes. I think in addition to what to buy and how to use a piece of equipment, "how to find unreal money to finance gear acquisition" is also is an important aspect (probably the most important aspect).

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    I would definitely prefer a camera that has no EVF built in: I don't want to handle bulk if I don't always require it. My experience with the LX3 has convinced me an LCD is very practical most of the time, but that a viewfinder can help in some specific cases. Same goes for flash: kick it out, I don't want to lug it around when I don't use it.

    For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.


    Peter.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.


    Peter.
    Well that is the direction that Sony tried to take and they are getting skewered in reviews for their first attempt.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    I would definitely prefer a camera that has no EVF built in: I don't want to handle bulk if I don't always require it. My experience with the LX3 has convinced me an LCD is very practical most of the time, but that a viewfinder can help in some specific cases. Same goes for flash: kick it out, I don't want to lug it around when I don't use it.

    For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.


    Peter.
    Have you tried Ricoh cameras (GRD, GX, GXR). They have a UI and enough customizable buttons to create the usability you are looking for. The GXR will offer the most flexibility in lenses and sensors for the future.

    Keith

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    ... For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.
    This is a common complaint and it's mostly just another fantasy as we reminisce fondly for the simpler cameras and simpler times of the past, and miss our photographic youth.

    Most cameras nowadays have a complex of controls needed to configure and tailor their body operations and exposure system to your likings and, even more so, to configure their image processing systems for the output of JPEG images. Old mechanical cameras like a Nikon FM didn't have image processing systems, customizable operation settings, or configurable exposure systems. You can't do that kind of configurations setup with three knobs like you could when setting aperture, shutter and focus. Old mechanical cameras (thinking of the FM again) often needed only seven more controls ... set film speed, shutter release, film wind, declutch film drive, rewind, open back ... to have a complete control set.

    Digital cameras need a lot more controls to make their settings with. Providing a discrete control for every setting creates a button/switch/knob nightmare which doesn't work. Even if you don't use the image processing system (because you capture raw format files) there is still a complex set of metering options to manage along with other settings which configure the camera to work as you want.

    The good news is that most of these settings need to be used once or only rarely. So most of what you need to use, most of the time, are the same as that Nikon FM ... set aperture, exposure time, focus, and release shutter. No need to wind or rewind the film. That means that the in-use OPERATING controls are actually reduced.

    Looking at the G1 ... configure the camera operations once, close the LCD, and set it into RAW capture, Manual exposure mode, manual focus. From that point on:

    - on/off switch
    - one menu to set the ISO sensitivity (one button, two selection arrows)
    - one dial that clicks between setting the shutter time or setting the aperture.
    - focusing ring on the lens
    - shutter release

    That's all you need to use to operate the camera past the configuration settings and make your photos with all the facility that the Nikon FM did. Setting the ISO is the only operation that takes multiple button presses, where on the FM you had to press and hold a lock button while turning a selector ring.

    If they provided a digital camera that did what the Nikon FM did ... that is, had only raw capture, (no JPEG output), manual focus only, one metering pattern, match-needle metering, no histogram or other exposure setting options, only single frame capture, and replaced the LCD and buttons for setting ISO with a dial and lock button ... the controls would be as simple or simpler than the FM.

    The question is, would anyone buy it?

    I use all my cameras set up that way a good bit of the time. But in all honesty, I doubt I'd buy a modern camera that could do nothing else. My expectations of what a camera should be able to do have grown beyond what it was possible for an FM to do.

    Thomas Wolfe was right: "You can't go home again."

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Video mode is super simple (at least on the NX10 and it will not allow any manual focus lenses to be used for video), just one button needs to be depressed.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Same with GH1 so what's the news? And it does accept manual lenses.

    P.S.: I like your IR shots a lot. Pana sensors seem to be ideal for that.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Klaus, Stay with the flow.

    That follows PeterLeyssens wish for a simpler camera. Yes, also the GH1 (I am pretty sure that is the case with the NEXs) video is simple one button operation.

    It is the still photographers' never ending list of demands that appears to bog down "camera" companies.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by kds315 View Post
    Same with GH1 so what's the news? And it does accept manual lenses.

    P.S.: I like your IR shots a lot. Pana sensors seem to be ideal for that.
    Thanks, Klaus.

    I think Pana have real potential with their NMOS sensors for IR cams and IR video, etc. Instead of trying to push surplus G1s and the like with reduced price, they should resell them modified for IR for a healthy profits.

  36. #36
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Hi,

    Never thought I'd get so much response I'll use a car analogy throughout to show what I mean. It is obviously defective by design, but suppose HCB really was the super fast operator some claim he was, he'd want a camera with simple controls that he can use without even looking at the camera. With a car, you can control the steering wheel, the pedals and the manual gearbox pretty well without watching them. It's necessary. With a camera, it's not so life threatening to have controls that only half work, so vendors don't care as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Well that is the direction that Sony tried to take and they are getting skewered in reviews for their first attempt.
    Well, no. What Sony did was replace the steering wheel and the pedals by a touch screen. You'd get skewered for less in the car industry.

    (purely based on reviews: I haven't handled a NEX yet).


    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    Have you tried Ricoh cameras (GRD, GX, GXR). They have a UI and enough customizable buttons to create the usability you are looking for. The GXR will offer the most flexibility in lenses and sensors for the future.
    Unfortunately, my only experience with a Ricoh was trying out a GX200 in a shop. I decided to go with the LX3 back then, but I hear lots of good about the Ricohs all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    This is a common complaint and it's mostly just another fantasy as we reminisce fondly for the simpler cameras and simpler times of the past, and miss our photographic youth.
    Oh, I do that all the time, so you're very right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Most cameras nowadays have a complex of controls needed to configure and tailor their body operations and exposure system to your likings and, even more so, to configure their image processing systems for the output of JPEG images.
    Sure, but as cars have way more horsepower now, they require stabilisation systems, anti skid, anti blocking brakes, and lots more that I don't even know. A car is a gigantic distributed computer now with way more CPU power than what any of us has on their desks to do photo processing.

    Yet, the interface is quite simple.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Old mechanical cameras like a Nikon FM didn't have image processing systems, customizable operation settings, or configurable exposure systems. You can't do that kind of configurations setup with three knobs like you could when setting aperture, shutter and focus.
    Sure. But the Panasonic LC-1 has a very elegant system to do the basic operations: both the aperture (on the lens) as well as the shutter speed (on the body) have an "A" setting: switch both to A and you have A, switch one to A and you have the-other-priority, switch both to another setting and it's fully manual. Why do some cameras need menu items to do this ?

    Most cameras have some things implemented in quite a good way and others in quite a bad way. If you compare the worst implementations to the best implementations (as in my example above), you can think of several ways that an ideal camera's user interface could be improved. And from there on, there must be a lot of improvements that haven't been invented yet. One such good idea is Olympus' super control panel: they actually thought about which settings would be frequently used. But then it got implemented with fiddly push buttons on a Commodore 64 lookalike user interface. I am not offering solutions, I know, but there must be a better way.


    Peter.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    Sure, but as cars have way more horsepower now, they require stabilisation systems, anti skid, anti blocking brakes, and lots more that I don't even know. A car is a gigantic distributed computer now with way more CPU power than what any of us has on their desks to do photo processing.

    Yet, the interface is quite simple.
    Hmm . . . what sort of car are you driving? . . apart from the steering, gears and the pedals my current car has a worse interface than most cameras (certainly more complex).



    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    I am not offering solutions, I know, but there must be a better way.


    Peter.
    Well, actually I agree with almost everything you say. Interestingly, the cameras I like and use most seem to be almost there.
    The Sony A900 has almost everything on buttons on the outside - with a panel rather like the olympus panel as an alternative, together with user settings on the (APMS) settings dial (which over-ride everything else). I find it very easy and intuitive, and things can certainly be changed without looking.
    The M9 really is simple - one menu level, and the rest on buttons or dials on the outside . . . . but the world is clamouring for more features, so I guess that will go in the end too!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Peter,
    No touch screen on the Sony. Just that they've cut back on the number of buttons and made them context sensitive. Using the Sony without looking at the controls is not any different that using a GF1 or EP1 without a viewfinder. Even with optical viewfinder on the Oly and you need to look at the screen to confirm your settings. The EVF is the only way to see all of your settings on the screen and adjust by feel.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    The GH1 has been discontinued in the Uk. I think we won´t have to wait much for something new. http://43rumors.com/panasonic-gh1-discontinued-in-uk/

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    While this is not shocking what would replace it could be.

    Just look what they did to try to replace the G1 (new G1s are still available for great prices)!

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    While this is not shocking what would replace it could be.

    Just look what they did to try to replace the G1 (new G1s are still available for great prices)!
    Hahaha. You´re right in so many levels.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterLeyssens View Post
    ... I'll use a car analogy throughout to show what I mean. It is obviously defective by design,
    ...
    as cars have way more horsepower now, they require stabilisation systems, anti skid, anti blocking brakes, and lots more that I don't even know. ...

    Yet, the interface is quite simple.

    ... the Panasonic LC-1 has a very elegant system to do the basic operations...
    The car analogy isn't apropos. "Way more horsepower" does not by itself "require" stabilization systems, anti-skid, anti-lock brakes or any of the other modern conveniences, and all of those things do not require (or permit!) any customization by the user to do their job. Customization by the user would be deadly in most cases. Modern cars only rarely have more horsepower than cars of the past anyway, at any reasonable equivalent price point.

    If you're talking Formula 1 cars, the situation is different but that's not the automotive technology that most people can really use or understand either. And by and large the operator (driver) doesn't adjust anything at all ... the user interface is a complex team of specialists who listen to the driver and read the dataloggers ... they adjust both mechanical and electronic control systems to suit the specialized needs of reducing time around the track, a single dimensional metric. The interface for those adjustments is FAR from simple.

    The steering wheel, brake and gas pedals remain simple ... so do the controls for aperture, shutter speed and shutter release on most cameras. Crappy cameras have crappy controls for these things.

    I'm well aware of the excellent Panasonic LC1 control system ... I have the L1 and use it a lot, same design. There are some interesting annoyances with it, but overall it is quite nice and reminiscent of many older cameras. Again, I think that's really what the issue is.

    But that doesn't mean other control systems are not also excellent. For instance, the Olympus E-1 has a superbly placed and intuitive feel front/back body wheel design with focusing ring on the lenses, all configureable for your preferences as to which one controls what in each mode. You can see at a glance on the top-mounted display precisely what exposure, focus, and other mode settings are current as well as current exposure settings. In the viewfinder too.

    What's the solution to cameras with crappy controls? Don't buy those cameras. Period. There are plenty of choices out there, from crappy to superb. Pick the one that works for you.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    I want a micro L1.

    And a 14mm prime.

    And to be 6'3".


    I'll settle for two out of three.
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The car analogy isn't apropos.
    Don't you mean you don't think it is?
    I thought it was rather good!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by RonSmith View Post
    I want a micro L1.

    And a 14mm prime.

    And to be 6'3".


    I'll settle for two out of three.


    I want a 12-60 zoom
    I want a weathersealed body (camera that is, mine is already tolerably water-resistant).
    I'd like to be 25 again

    . . . . and I'd settle for any two (actually, I'd settle for one if it were the last).

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Don't you mean you don't think it is?
    I thought it was rather good!
    Do you qualify every opinion you state with "I think ..." ? Qualifying one's speech constantly when writing or speaking is poor English. The fact that I'm stating an opinion is obvious from the context of the discussion.

    For reasons stated, my opinion is that the analogy is not apropos at all.

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by RonSmith View Post
    I want a micro L1.
    And a 14mm prime.
    And to be 6'3".

    I'll settle for two out of three.
    So do I, on (a) and (b), although I suspect the 7-14 zoom would do me better at that end of the focal length range.

    I'm happy with 6', however. It's nice to look up to someone once in a while. :-)

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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    So do I, on (a) and (b), although I suspect the 7-14 zoom would do me better at that end of the focal length range.

    I'm happy with 6', however. It's nice to look up to someone once in a while. :-)
    And yet, it becomes tiresome on a regular basis, says the 5'6" guy.


    The 7-14 is indeed awesome, even at my height.
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  49. #49
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Hi Godfrey,

    Let's skip the car part and move straight to the photo bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The steering wheel, brake and gas pedals remain simple ... so do the controls for aperture, shutter speed and shutter release on most cameras. Crappy cameras have crappy controls for these things.
    I disagree. The Panasonic LX3 is not a crappy camera, yet, I had to use a little stick to change the diaphragm in A mode. The fact that DOF wide open is already very deep is a bad excuse for a bad interface. At my first attempt to use an E-P1, I also thought the thumb wheel and the wheel around the 4-way controller were not the best, but I'll refrain from calling both the E-P1 as well as its controls crappy until I used it more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    But that doesn't mean other control systems are not also excellent. For instance, the Olympus E-1 (skipping the good example for brevity)

    What's the solution to cameras with crappy controls? Don't buy those cameras. Period. There are plenty of choices out there, from crappy to superb. Pick the one that works for you.
    Generally speaking, you're right. If you look at smaller cameras, you're not.
    I wasn't going to skip the E-420 and get an E-3 just because the controls are in a better place: the E-3 nearly weighs as much as any OM body with the 90/f2.0 macro lens, which I consider to be a lot to lug around. Size is no excuse: all OM bodies are smaller than the E-420, yet, their controls are much better. User interface design just isn't the primary focus of camera vendors anymore: featuritis is, because "it sells" when you're able to brag about 3D sweep panoramas, but not when your camera is just easy to use for its purpose.


    Peter.

  50. #50
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I want a 12-60 zoom
    I want a weathersealed body (camera that is, mine is already tolerably water-resistant).
    I'd like to be 25 again
    +1 for the weathersealed body. And a good portrait prime (45/f1.4 ?). And enough cash to get either the 7-14 or the 9-18 to go with an E-P2 with viewfinder !


    Peter.

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