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Thread: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Please become true!!! Please!!!! My dream is that some day someone comes out with a Foveon micro 4/3 camera, but Foveon like could be just as good!

    http://43rumors.com/panasonic-3-laye...foveon-sensor/

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    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Finally! Someone other than Sigma with this type of sensor. I love Foveon images.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Forgive my ignorance, but how do large prints from Foveon sensors compare to same-size prints from conventional Bayer sensors of a similar effective resolution? My concern with Foveon-type sensors has always been the significant loss in actual resolution because the sensors are only 1/3 in actual resolution compared to a conventional sensor. I too love the color rendition of the Foveons, but if I can't make anything larger than 8x10 prints from it, it has limited use.
    -Dragos
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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    Forgive my ignorance, but how do large prints from Foveon sensors compare to same-size prints from conventional Bayer sensors of a similar effective resolution? My concern with Foveon-type sensors has always been the significant loss in actual resolution because the sensors are only 1/3 in actual resolution compared to a conventional sensor. I too love the color rendition of the Foveons, but if I can't make anything larger than 8x10 prints from it, it has limited use.
    That is why the DP1/DP2 cameras were always a hit with some and not so much with others. I don´t make large prints, so this is really not on my high priority list...but I can see this as a deal breaker for professional photographers. I´m sure Pana can see this too and will propably have a solution for it.

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    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Actually, I think most people are put off by the performance of Sigma's cameras and software than the image quality (resolution specifically). In bayer-terms, the 14MP Foveon resolves similarly to a 8-10MP bayer, depending on the subject (it rocks on the color charts). I've heard people say they print 16"x20"s successfully from Sigma cameras; I think it just takes proper handling of the scaling process.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    That is why I´m so thrilled about Pana coming up with an alternative. Unlike Sigma, Pana really wants to take on the big dogs (Nikon and Canon) and they know they cannot make the same mistakes that Sigma did when producing their DP cameras.

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    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Check out the color chart comparison on DPReview's DP1 review:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmadp1/page20.asp

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Rafa,
    It's a shared dream. I miss the DP cameras and have made beautiful 16 x 20 prints.
    If they put that in a Panny...I'll sleep out overnight to get it....

    Waynes images over in the small sensor forum shows what the DP's can do.....

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    Forgive my ignorance, but how do large prints from Foveon sensors compare to same-size prints from conventional Bayer sensors of a similar effective resolution?.
    My experience has been that given a sharp lens, Foveon sensors capture as much detail as a Bayer sensor of roughly twice the MP count. So, a 4.7MP DP1 will capture slightly less detail than a 10MP Bayer sensor. That's enough to make fairly large prints if they are meant to be viewed at typical viewing distances.

    Here are some examples of how a DP1 stands up to Bayer competition in terms of detail captured:

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    My experience has been that given a sharp lens, Foveon sensors capture as much detail as a Bayer sensor of roughly twice the MP count. So, a 4.7MP DP1 will capture slightly less detail than a 10MP Bayer sensor. That's enough to make fairly large prints if they are meant to be viewed at typical viewing distances.

    Here are some examples of how a DP1 stands up to Bayer competition in terms of detail captured:
    That's very educational, and it does change things in my mind a bit. I can only hope that if and when Panasonic comes out with something like this they'll be able to better the performance from Sigma somehow.
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Please become true!!! Please!!!! My dream is that some day someone comes out with a Foveon micro 4/3 camera, but Foveon like could be just as good!

    http://43rumors.com/panasonic-3-laye...foveon-sensor/
    You can count the number of people who want Foveon technology with the fingers of one hand. I agree Bayer needs to be surpassed, but Foveon is not the way.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    You can count the number of people who want Foveon technology with the fingers of one hand. I agree Bayer needs to be surpassed, but Foveon is not the way.
    relatively speaking one can count on one hand the people who prefer negative (perhaps medium format) film (and scans) over those who prefer full frame digital, that does not mean that one is more able to produce a better image than the other ... so it seems a bit of a straw man argument to me.

    Noone has mentioned the pixel density of the Panasonic system (or did I miss that?), not to mention that it is not a carbon copy of the Foveon system.

    So if the Panasonic system somehow enables better capture of colour information then I'm all for it. If I could use my digital to capture stuff like this:



    instead of like this



    which normally needs HDR or colour negative then I'm all for it. (the second is typical digital the first is very close to how my eye's viewed it on the morning)

    (note, if the first image was actually neg it would not have had that nasty solar flare as the HDRI does ....)

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    I can only hope that if and when Panasonic comes out with something like this they'll be able to better the performance from Sigma somehow.
    I'd be interested even if they can't. I always liked the look of the Sigma Foveon sensor, and I imagine that Panasonic would improve some of the operational aspects relative to the DP series.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    in my always humble opinion:

    Sensor type isn't important.
    Camera performance is.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    in my always humble opinion:

    Sensor type isn't important.
    Camera performance is.
    I think this depends on the type of pictures you take.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I think this depends on the type of pictures you take.
    Why would the type of pictures one makes create any distinction in this regard?

    Said another way, can you articulate a pair of instances where a particular, specific sensor type would be a better for one or the other as different from whether the camera being used performs up to the task at hand?

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Why would the type of pictures one makes create any distinction in this regard?

    Said another way, can you articulate a pair of instances where a particular, specific sensor type would be a better for one or the other as different from whether the camera being used performs up to the task at hand?
    Well, let me butt in - I don't find the question too difficult.

    For instance - I have purchased a Ricoh GXR, with the 28-300mm lensor. It has a small sensor. I know I will get noise if I push it. I am going to buy the A12 which has the much larger sensor, and that will give me much less noise pictures than the P10.
    So, small sensor for B & W grainy pictures such as from Mitch Alland, or Wouter Brandsma.
    A12 for Leica like resolution and character.

    Godfrey - am I missing something here?

    Keith

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Why would the type of pictures one makes create any distinction in this regard?
    well, if you photograph outside and take wedding photographs, don't want washed out dresses and ink blacks then you may be part of the crowd who appreciates the S3 and S5 for their sensors.

    If your subject matter normally fits nicely in the scene brightness range of the sensor then its all good.

    mine often don't, yours may ...

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    In both your examples, it could be just as easily and accurately said: "I'm choosing camera X because it performs best for what I want", camera X being a complete image capture assembly.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    Well, let me butt in - I don't find the question too difficult.

    For instance - I have purchased a Ricoh GXR, with the 28-300mm lensor. It has a small sensor. I know I will get noise if I push it. I am going to buy the A12 which has the much larger sensor, and that will give me much less noise pictures than the P10.
    So, small sensor for B & W grainy pictures such as from Mitch Alland, or Wouter Brandsma.
    A12 for Leica like resolution and character.

    Godfrey - am I missing something here?

    Keith
    The GXR is a bit of a special case as it's the only camera body currently available that has changeable sensors, unless you're talking medium format cameras with interchangeable backs which are an entirely different scope of discussion. This discussion was about a sensor type used in a complete camera, not a situation where you were going to pick a body and sensor independently of one another ... eg: "I want a Micro-FourThirds camera with a Fovean sensor!" If you're picking a hypothetical Hasselblad H12 and Hasselblad offers the same size sensor in both Fovean and Bayer matrix types for that body, then of course the choice between Fovean and Bayer matrix sensors is a discriminator.

    It doesn't matter that the P10 vs A12 had a Fovean sensor or a Bayer sensor: the discriminator there is that the GXR+P10 has a much smaller sensor than the GXR+A12. The technology of the sensor is irrelevant ... the camera in one configuration has a performance characteristic that suits your need better than the camera in another configuration. Note that you don't get a choice of Fovean vs Bayer at all ... you get a choice of sensor size. IF there were a P10B and P10F, then the specific sensor technology would make a difference: it becomes a criteria in your selection.

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    well, if you photograph outside and take wedding photographs, don't want washed out dresses and ink blacks then you may be part of the crowd who appreciates the S3 and S5 for their sensors.

    If your subject matter normally fits nicely in the scene brightness range of the sensor then its all good.

    mine often don't, yours may ...
    In the case of the Fuji S3 and S5, you can't change the sensor in these bodies so you are pick one of these two over other cameras with same format, same resolution sensor because the cameras perform to your desire. The fact that they have a particular Fuji sensor is part of that performance envelope, yes, but you can't choose the camera independently of the sensor, just like you can't choose a Nikon D300s on the basis of Fovean vs Bayer sensor. You choose a Nikon D300s because it performs to the spec you want. The distinction of which sensor a particular body has is irrelevant, it's how the body performs that's important.

    It's just like choosing a camera based on whether the sensor is CCD or CMOS technology. Since you don't get a choice model by model of which of these sensor technologies a particular body uses, you choose the body based on how it performs, not what type of sensor technology it contains.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    So Godfrey, to bring it full cycle, isn't Rawfa simply saying he wishes his desired sensor were in his desired body??

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    So Godfrey, to bring it full cycle, isn't Rawfa simply saying he wishes his desired sensor were in his desired body??
    Sure. So what? The whole Fovean vs bayer matrix thing is just another freekin' pseudo religious dogma debate. Like "Oh, it's got to be better because it has a CMOS sensor now." I see a lot of mis-information and hype, not actual information or a discussion of the compromises and priorities of the technology.

    What the Fovean type technology offers as theoretical advantage over a Bayer type technology is more color resolution, not more spatial resolution, through co-locating R, G and B photosites. The downsides of a Fovean type technology is that since it requires a three-layer chip design with stacked photosites to co-locate the RGB sensitive site elements, it tends to be less sensitive to light and more likely to produce artifacts with lenses that do not collimate the ray trace to be orthogonal to the sensor plane. Because the Fovean chips are more complex to manufacture, they're more expensive too.

    Thus far, Fovean sensor cameras have excelled at modest ISO settings with the right lenses, but Bayer matrix sensor cameras have gone much further with more spatial resolution, lower cost, better high ISO performance, and have nearly equalled the existing Fovean technology on color quality.

    For some work, the Fovean sensor cameras have produced advantageous results. For other work, they haven't. Does Rawfa do the work for which Fovean sensor cameras have been the superior choice? Does he use one for his work and is excited over the prospect of having a newer, even better performing technology of this type to work with? I don't know. All I hear is "I really like this because I know its gonna rock!"

    Now Panasonic has filed for patent a new sensor design which is similar to Fovean sensors. Maybe it has some advantage, maybe it doesn't. Cheerleading it as the greatest new thing to get obsessed over is just more geekery.

    When cameras are produced using this new sensor technology and their performance is evaluated, then I'll be able to say what works well for what purposes, and get excited over the possibilities. Until then, it's just an interesting new technology that has some potential yet to be evaluated. What it means to camera performance is as yet an unknown.

    And camera performance is what matters, not what technology the chip is based on.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    I made no comments as to whether or not I thought that combo was a good thing.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    And camera performance is what matters, not what technology the chip is based on.
    +1. There are so many other factors involved in a particular camera producing a quality image that the actual sensor technology used is only a small piece of the puzzle. Anything from the lenses used to the coatings/filters placed on the sensor, to the processing of the information from the sensor to the GUI/ergonomics of the camera can affect not only how well that sensor technology translates into quality photos, but also into how likely is the user to use a particular camera to actually take those photos.

    I do think these discussions have some merit because they're not objective discussions about generic sensor technology inserted into generic cameras, but IMO they're very much subjective because most people having these discussions envision a specific camera they already love to use. So now we're no longer talking about mixing a new senor technology with a bunch of other unknowns, but we're talking about ONLY changing the sensor technology, and inserting that into a camera of the user's choosing, with known everything else. As an example, when I get excited about a new sensor technology, I get excited because I see it thrown into my beloved GH1 (or a derivative thereof), which is tangible.

    Basically everybody's saying the same thing here, and everyone's correct in their own way.
    -Dragos
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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I made no comments as to whether or not I thought that combo was a good thing.
    Um, my response made no suggestion that you had.

    feh, I just can't type this morning ... ;-)
    Last edited by Godfrey; 25th July 2010 at 08:27.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    I'd be happy if Sigma would just put and LCD on a DP camera that I could actually see with.

    Oh, and I think an foveon type sensor in a Panasonic 'might' really rock!
    Last edited by Will; 25th July 2010 at 08:24.

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    I'd be happy if Sigma would just put and LCD on a DP camera that I could actually see with.

    Oh, and I think an foveon type sensor in a Panasonic 'might' really rock!
    LOL! I'd be delighted if Sigma would build something, anything, without its standard lack of consistent quality.

    But I'll refrain from my usual Sigma rant. ];-)

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    Re: Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The fact that they have a particular Fuji sensor is part of that performance envelope, yes, but you can't choose the camera independently of the sensor, just like you can't choose a Nikon D300s on the basis of Fovean vs Bayer sensor
    ok, perhaps I think I see what you were meaning. One of the reasons I like film is that I can change the sensor according to what I'm photographing while keeping the camera I like.

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