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Thread: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

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    Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Forum poster duartix over at DPR posted a link to some CV Nokton 25/0.95 samples, here.

    It could have been better, but it also could have turned out to be worse. What do you think?

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    What do you think?
    Thanks for pointing us to it. I think it delivers quite a decent result. Considering the doll was shot wide open I couldn't find fault with it. The ship at night even at f/4 is well reproduced. The one that impressed me most was the old Jaguar at just f/2.8 showing right edge and centre performance to be quite good. Over to you folks ...

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Forum poster duartix over at DPR posted a link to some CV Nokton 25/0.95 samples, here.

    It could have been better, but it also could have turned out to be worse. What do you think?

    /Jonas
    I like it. The sharpness and the bokeh at 0.95 would suit my shooting style. I plan to get one

    Thanks for posting

    Keith

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Thanks for posting the link . . . . .

    Enjoyed the photos, loved the ship at night, the bokeh in the boxing glove shot and the shot of the books and decanters . . . . .

    Placed a deposit to purchase when they are released a week ago.


    Life is Grand!

    Dan
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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Jonas, I would like to hear what you think of the images.

    Thanks for the link. The most interesting aspect for me there (besides the samples) is the amazon link that indicates the price to be <700 Euros.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Thanks Jonas! Duartix is insightful guy!

    I think it is a very interesting lens for low light. It has a little aggressive bokeh when looked in close up, but it seems rather sharp even wide open.
    The boat picture @4 is amazing.

    I think I like it, but would like to see some more.

    Michiel

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    haven't looked too closely... but they do see a little flat contrast wise.... but maybe thats just a wide aperture thing

    K

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    I looked through them. At f2 or f2.8 I am impressed with the sharpness of the images. However, they are only as sharp, imho, as the Lumix 20/1.7 and you'd have to ask yourself do you feel lucky (well do you punk?) using manual focus over the very good AF of the 20/1.7?

    The 0.95 images are very good but nothing is in focus as far as I can see anywhere in the frame. In fact, it would be very helpful if the picture actually included the information about where in the frame the shooter focussed.

    This is not a surprise to me. My CV 50/1.5 works very well down to f2 (on my M8). Very sharp and wonderful bokeh. At f1.5 it is a very hit and miss afair. I also briefly owned the CV 50/1.1 and sadly I could never get any kind of sharp plane of focus with that so I sold it. Nice soft images with lots of lovely diffuse areas but for portrait work I'd like to try and get at least one eye focussed sharply.

    I know all the arguments about dof and razor thin planes of focus but by comparison test images from the new Leica 0.95 do seem to have at least one point which is razor sharp and it is impressive (as it should be for the price).

    So, my opinion for what it is worth is please buy one and shoot a lot of images so I can see whether in this case the photographer just didn't do a good job or like other CV Nokton products it will be good enough if you like Jazz but not good enough if you are more exacting in your photographic tastes.

    LouisB

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    I believe these are out of camera, no post at all..
    I downloaded one and added sharpening and contrast... here is the link,
    Click on the download control on the tabs above the image. to your computer for closer examination....
    The Right eye is the focus point I believe.
    Let me know if the link works...
    Last edited by M5-Guy; 4th September 2010 at 12:23.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    I believe these are out of camera, no post at all..
    I downloaded one and added sharpening and contrast... here is the link,
    Click on the download control on the tabs above the image. to your computer for closer examination....
    The Right eye is the focus point I believe.
    Let me know if the link works...
    Thank you, that is much better. The out of focus areas are very attractive and with the post processing there is a more clearly defined area of focus. Personally I would prefer to try one before I buy one, if that is possible.

    LouisB

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    To me it was very interesting looking at the sample images. This is the first time we can look at images taken with a super fast lens made for 4/3 sensors.

    At first sight I really liked the images. Heck, the darn lens covers the sensor. That's a first time. Great stuff. Not only does it cover the sensor, it seem to me as the images are sharp, at least OK "sharp" from the center and to the border. That's another first time for a 25/1 (or 25/0.95...)

    Then when getting back to the images the next day I got a totally impression: ugly bokeh, CA, LoCA, a lot of fringe, poor contrast, flare - everything was there. Strange.

    I guess it was all in my head. The first time I was happy with seeing images taken with a super fast 25mm lens looking like normal images (as opposed to dark things not covering the sensor). When having that second look I noticed all the flaws. I was probably expecting something more normal.

    I think any of my 50mm lenses, when mounted to a FF camera, performs better than the Nokton 25/0.95. So, either our system is a poor system, or the Nokton is a poor lens. Or, one can say a lens this fast is an extreme lens, a special lens made for a specialist. Sure, when was a 50/2 considered a specialist item only?

    I'll buy a Nokton 25/0.95. I'll do that despite the obvious flaws and the high price. I have gone totally micro and 100% Live View. I take what I can get.

    EUR 890, from a dealer in Germany, is that a good price?

    Cheers,

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Have you looked at my previous post, where I provide a link to a 10mb sample that I sharpened and added a bit of contrast... (post 9)... take a look... you will be happier, I too may buy this lens. Even though I prefer AF, the MF on the G1 at 10x or 14x is easy to focus. CA is easy enough to correct with modern editing software these days, so no biggy. I have to adj the lens distortion with my Oly 17 on my Pany G1 on some subjects....(wish they would do optical correction like in the old days, instead of relying on the camera firmware do it, oh the modern technology can make manufactures lazy at times )

    Anyway, it should be good performer, and I am sure Cosina/Voigtlander will introduce a few more fast primes.. a 12mm f/2, a 17mm f/1.4 would be in my wish list.

    EUR 890 is in the ball park of offerings USA Price had not been set yet, but it should around USD 1100.000 +/-
    Last edited by M5-Guy; 5th September 2010 at 17:07.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    Have you looked at my previous post, where I provide a link to a 10mb sample that I sharpened and added a bit of contrast... (3 post back)... take a look... you will be happier, (...)
    Hi,

    Yes I did. I also downloaded all the images and looked at them carefully using Lightroom and then, after some processing, Irfanview. I agree about your observation and I also think the images were more or less unprocessed.

    Sometimes CA is easy to take care of sometimes not, LoCA is never really easy to take care of without degrading parts of the image. And there is a lot of LoCA in these images. Ugly bokeh can also be tricky.

    Anyway, I'll have to try it out myself and see what I really think after a lot of images. I hope some minor technical flaws will be masked by the images themselves.

    Is there anyone having seen a better deal in the Eu than the quoted €890?
    EDIT: I noticed you mentioned USD 1.100... that sounds very expensive.

    Cheers,

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Hi,

    Yes I did. I also downloaded all the images and looked at them carefully using Lightroom and then, after some processing, Irfanview. I agree about your observation and I also think the images were more or less unprocessed.

    Sometimes CA is easy to take care of sometimes not, LoCA is never really easy to take care of without degrading parts of the image. And there is a lot of LoCA in these images. Ugly bokeh can also be tricky.

    Anyway, I'll have to try it out myself and see what I really think after a lot of images. I hope some minor technical flaws will be masked by the images themselves.

    Is there anyone having seen a better deal in the Eu than the quoted €890?
    EDIT: I noticed you mentioned USD 1.100... that sounds very expensive.

    Cheers,

    /Jonas
    I just used my Currency converter with today's rates, EUR 890 = USD 1149

    It may be high, but, that's how it goes for 1st batch buyers.. . It should settle down, but, I think it may not go much lower...100 EUR in a few months maybe.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    I just used my Currency converter with today's rates, EUR 890 = USD 1149
    (...)
    The Ganref site mentioned a price in Japan equal to EUR 700. The EUR 890 price is the only price I have seen at any dealer in the EU and includes the German 19% VAT so somewhat higher than the Japanese price, and pricier than I expected.
    Maybe the lens will cost around USD 900 plus any possible Gandy penalty (if his prices still are very high)?

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    The Ganref site mentioned a price in Japan equal to EUR 700. The EUR 890 price is the only price I have seen at any dealer in the EU and includes the German 19% VAT so somewhat higher than the Japanese price, and pricier than I expected.
    Maybe the lens will cost around USD 900 plus any possible Gandy penalty (if his prices still are very high)?

    /Jonas
    A $900 price would be better....
    The 75 f/1.8 is I think $700.00. for Leica M mounts... That's a good price also.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    amazon.jp sells it already with 25% discount to the list price.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by kds315 View Post
    amazon.jp sells it already with 25% discount to the list price.
    Yup. That is the EUR 700 price mentioned by Vivek above. However... We're sorry; this item can not be shipped outside Japan

    Adding Swedish tax would make that EUR 875, adding German tax which I believe is 19%? would make it EUR 833.

    Is there anyone having seen any other price here in Europe but the EUR 890 I mentioned?

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    It is now slightly cheaper (27% off)>
    http://www.amazon.co.jp/COSINA-NOKTO...809418&sr=1-23

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    So, either our system is a poor system, or the Nokton is a poor lens.
    Jonas, a lot of things you posted there, I disagree with. I will not go into the details as you have not used any such fast lenses and I have not had a chance to use the Nokton either.

    I would simply disagree with that quoted statement. I would answer affirmatively on both counts: the system is great (compared to Sony which can not handle such fast lenses) and the lens also appears to be fine.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jonas, a lot of things you posted there, I disagree with. I will not go into the details as you have not used any such fast lenses and I have not had a chance to use the Nokton either.

    I would simply disagree with that quoted statement. I would answer affirmatively on both counts: the system is great (compared to Sony which can not handle such fast lenses) and the lens also appears to be fine.
    Vivek, I'm not surprised at all. And, a many things look strange when taken out of context. I'm sure we can both agree and disagree about a lot of things, not only about this lens.

    And you are right, the fastest lens I have used regularely was an f/1.1 lens, then there are several f/1.2 lenses I have owned and used for longer times. Now, are you saying I'll get vertigo when comparing this 25/0.95 to a 50/2 on a FF camera?

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Now, are you saying I'll get vertigo when comparing this 25/0.95 to a 50/2 on a FF camera?
    An f/0.95 lens is very different than an f/1.1 lens which is very different than an f/2 lens- in terms of use. For starters, metering will be very different due to sheer amount of light that comes through the lens.

    The argument that a 25 f/1 lens on m4/3rds is "equivalent" to a 50mm f/2 lens on a 35mm full frame is wrong. I have used such lenses on both the formats to say so.

    If this does not fit well with the theories, I would ask you to try for yourself.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    An f/0.95 lens is very different than an f/1.1 lens which is very different than an f/2 lens- in terms of use. For starters, metering will be very different due to sheer amount of light that comes through the lens.

    The argument that a 25 f/1 lens on m4/3rds is "equivalent" to a 50mm f/2 lens on a 35mm full frame is wrong. I have used such lenses on both the formats to say so.

    If this does not fit well with the theories, I would ask you to try for yourself.
    From 1.1 to 0.95 (f, not T) may be around 0,4 stops. In theory. If that makes metering very different I'll either do fine or find myself in big troubles. Maybe we here have the first lens ever that doesn't fit the equivalence theories for normal photographing, and there is no need to ask me to try it, I have already said I'll buy the lens and evaluate it for a longer period.

    Vivek, sometimes I don't know what to think about your posts. To avoid further disagreements for now I'll just switch to read only mode for a while.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples


    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

    50/0.95 on NEX (details of areas in focus get mushed up- problem with the NEX sensor). The lens did not "become" a 75mm f/1.5 "equivalent" (and it never will).

    What would the use of the same 50/0.95 on a G1 make it an equivalent of? 100mm f/2?!

    I have a 98mm f/1 lens that covers 6x6cm. Does it "become" slower when used on smaller format cameras?

    Heck, no.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples



    The ONLY "Equivalent" would be what f/stop would be needed to achieve the same DOF, NOT light gathering power.

    A 25mm f/.95 for a m4/3 shoot at f/.95 on a m4/3 camera will have the same DOF as a 50mm f/1.5 on a FF camera...BUT it still has the light gathering power of f/.95, even though the DOF is deeper BECAUSE OF the sensor size.
    The senor size affects DOF, not light gathering power...

    Oh, please, let's get past this already!
    f/2 on a m4/3 lens, lets in the same light gathering power as a f/2 on a FF camera, or a 6x6 camera or a 4x5 camera... what changes is the f/stop needed to have the same DOF across the formats at any given distance.

    That is the precise reason the f/stop method was developed. The formula used makes sure that regardless of the focal length, the iris opening is proportional to the focal length. fl/stop = opening size, 100mm/4 = 25mm, that is: f/4 = a 25mm opening. on a 300mm lens, f/4 = a 75mm opening. Yes it is 3x the size of the 100 f/4, BUT, it lets in THE SAME amount of light. With different formats, though, f/4 will have different DOF depths, controlled by the format (Film/sensor) size.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

    50/0.95 on NEX (details of areas in focus get mushed up- problem with the NEX sensor). The lens did not "become" a 75mm f/1.5 "equivalent" (and it never will).

    What would the use of the same 50/0.95 on a G1 make it an equivalent of? 100mm f/2?!

    I have a 98mm f/1 lens that covers 6x6cm. Does it "become" slower when used on smaller format cameras?

    Heck, no.
    Lovely portrait...
    Beautiful color and mood

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post


    The ONLY "Equivalent" would be what f/stop would be needed to achieve the same DOF, NOT light gathering power.

    A 25mm f/.95 for a m4/3 shoot at f/.95 on a m4/3 camera will have the same DOF as a 50mm f/1.5 on a FF camera...BUT it still has the light gathering power of f/.95, even though the DOF is deeper BECAUSE OF the sensor size.
    The senor size affects DOF, not light gathering power...

    Oh, please, let's get past this already!
    f/2 on a m4/3 lens, lets in the same light gathering power as a f/2 on a FF camera, or a 6x6 camera or a 4x5 camera... what changes is the f/stop needed to have the same DOF across the formats at any given distance.

    That is the precise reason the f/stop method was developed. The formula used makes sure that regardless of the focal length, the iris opening is proportional to the focal length. fl/stop = opening size, 100mm/4 = 25mm, that is: f/4 = a 25mm opening. on a 300mm lens, f/4 = a 75mm opening. Yes it is 3x the size of the 100 f/4, BUT, it lets in THE SAME amount of light. With different formats, though, f/4 will have different DOF depths, controlled by the format (Film/sensor) size.
    DOF discussions are never complete without circle of confusion specifications. Lately I am given more to the circle of confusion about 1.4-2x inter-pixel dimension (for bayer sensors).
    So you see, you can't even determine equivalence until you have determined the rest of the imaging system and then to what use the resulting image will be put, such as what print size and viewing distance.
    With the 1.4-2x inter pixel spacing rule of thumb at least I am not defining my dof by print size, but by print size capability.
    So really, equivalence is very tough to define.
    thanks
    -bob

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post


    The ONLY "Equivalent" would be what f/stop would be needed to achieve the same DOF, NOT light gathering power.

    A 25mm f/.95 for a m4/3 shoot at f/.95 on a m4/3 camera will have the same DOF as a 50mm f/1.5 on a FF camera...BUT it still has the light gathering power of f/.95, even though the DOF is deeper BECAUSE OF the sensor size.
    The senor size affects DOF, not light gathering power...

    Oh, please, let's get past this already!
    f/2 on a m4/3 lens, lets in the same light gathering power as a f/2 on a FF camera, or a 6x6 camera or a 4x5 camera... what changes is the f/stop needed to have the same DOF across the formats at any given distance.

    That is the precise reason the f/stop method was developed. The formula used makes sure that regardless of the focal length, the iris opening is proportional to the focal length. fl/stop = opening size, 100mm/4 = 25mm, that is: f/4 = a 25mm opening. on a 300mm lens, f/4 = a 75mm opening. Yes it is 3x the size of the 100 f/4, BUT, it lets in THE SAME amount of light. With different formats, though, f/4 will have different DOF depths, controlled by the format (Film/sensor) size.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    DOF discussions are never complete without circle of confusion specifications. Lately I am given more to the circle of confusion about 1.4-2x inter-pixel dimension (for bayer sensors).
    So you see, you can't even determine equivalence until you have determined the rest of the imaging system and then to what use the resulting image will be put, such as what print size and viewing distance.
    With the 1.4-2x inter pixel spacing rule of thumb at least I am not defining my dof by print size, but by print size capability.
    So really, equivalence is very tough to define.
    thanks
    -bob
    There is a lot of areas to think about for sure, I agree. I just get so tired of the DOF/equivalence vs f/stop, and all the misunderstanding with it.

    I tried to explained it layman terms, I am no mathematician, nor do I know all the variables (as you and others may know), But, I try to keep things simple, so, as a practical guide, it may help someone understand this property. We never had this "Problem" in the film days... and I guess pre-internet days either. Maybe because there was not a internet to have open discussions.

    Thanks for reply

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    DOF discussions are never complete without circle of confusion specifications. (...)
    So really, equivalence is very tough to define.
    Aren't the CoC-sizes used by, for example, DOF-master OK for the discussion? I don't care about the exact values maybe but the relation between the different sizes of the CoC should be clear; 4/3 CoC needs to be half of the FF CoC to achieve the same resolution as I understand it.

    But, I'm interested in learning more if needed for taking part in a discussion.

    I have for example always assumed that people are talking about a common situation and goal when discussing equivalence, for example; the same motif, the same vantage point, the same print size as the end result and as a sidenote an agreement about not thinking about the differences in aspect of ratio. That seems complicated and simple enough for me. Is there anything here I have got wrong please let me know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    50/0.95 on NEX (details of areas in focus get mushed up- problem with the NEX sensor). The lens did not "become" a 75mm f/1.5 "equivalent" (and it never will).

    What would the use of the same 50/0.95 on a G1 make it an equivalent of? 100mm f/2?!
    A lens never becomes anything. How could it? We should be able to agree a lens is what it is no matter what adapter you put it on.

    I have a 98mm f/1 lens that covers 6x6cm. Does it "become" slower when used on smaller format cameras?

    Heck, no.
    Really, why do ask/mention this? My guess is that you are very much aware about how the FOV changes when moving a lens between cameras with different sensor sizes. Right?
    I'm also pretty sure you know, and very well so, how the DOF is changed by the fact that you use different aperture sizes and take the images at different shooting distances. Right?

    Then what are you arguing about?

    If you want to discuss the differences in image quality and lens rendering styles between super fast lenses and medium slow lenses for a bigger format then we can do that. I started above when first posting about my impressions from the Nokton 25/0.95 samples.

    I have owned FF cameras, 1.5, 1.6 and 2x crop cameras. I have done experiments and I have found the theories to work out surprisingly well in real life. Just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post


    The ONLY "Equivalent" would be what f/stop would be needed to achieve the same DOF, NOT light gathering power.

    A 25mm f/.95 for a m4/3 shoot at f/.95 on a m4/3 camera will have the same DOF as a 50mm f/1.5 on a FF camera...BUT it still has the light gathering power of f/.95, even though the DOF is deeper BECAUSE OF the sensor size.
    The senor size affects DOF, not light gathering power...
    (...)
    f/2 on a m4/3 lens, lets in the same light gathering power as a f/2 on a FF camera, or a 6x6 camera or a 4x5 camera... what changes is the f/stop needed to have the same DOF across the formats at any given distance.

    That is the precise reason the f/stop method was developed. The formula used makes sure that regardless of the focal length, the iris opening is proportional to the focal length. fl/stop = opening size, 100mm/4 = 25mm, that is: f/4 = a 25mm opening. on a 300mm lens, f/4 = a 75mm opening. Yes it is 3x the size of the 100 f/4, BUT, it lets in THE SAME amount of light. With different formats, though, f/4 will have different DOF depths, controlled by the format (Film/sensor) size.
    I would say DOF is what is interesting in these discussions. For the hard core equivalence enthusiasts "light gathering power" is important as they are interested in not only DOF but also noise. So they don't say the light gathering is the same between a 4/3 25/1 and a FF 50/2 lens/camera combo. Using the same f-stops will make the lenses let in the same amount of light per area unit, not per image. And surely the f-stop method was developed for exposure reasons, not for DOF comparisons?

    So, discussing DOF only here, and for the sake of convenience I'll round 0.95 to 1, OK?...
    M5-Guy, how did you get f/1 equiv to f/1.5? In these discussions one usually multiply with the crop factor and finds a 25/1 lens is equiv to a 50/2 lens with regards to DOF. What's the reason for multiplying with a factor of 1.5?

    Oh, and yes, I get bored by all this as well but I want it to be right now that people are here.

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    (...) So, either our system is a poor system, or the Nokton is a poor lens.
    Surely my claim above, from post #11, can be taken as a base for an adult discussion about system differences?

    The Nokton is not a poor lens. Our systems are also not poor. So what is it I had in mind stating the above?

    Well, when looking at the N25 samples the second and third time it hit me that we can't achieve the same results using our cameras and available lenses (N25 included) as any FF camera user with nearly any 50/2 lens mounted can.

    The night image of the the ship is a possible exception, it depends on the exact lens used. The other images demonstrate more CA. more LoCA and uglier bokeh (subjective of course) and probably lesser resolution than I got with my 5D with any of my 50mm lenses used at the equiv f-stop.

    What is the big drama here?

    Anyone having used a decent medium fast normal lens on a FF camera should be able to see that. Anyone not being a blind system fan should be able to discuss it. Maybe not wanting to discuss it but being able to.

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post

    For the hard core equivalence enthusiasts "light gathering power" is important as they are interested in not only DOF but also noise. So they don't say the light gathering is the same between a 4/3 25/1 and a FF 50/2 lens/camera combo. Using the same f-stops will make the lenses let in the same amount of light per area unit, not per image. And surely the f-stop method was developed for exposure reasons, not for DOF comparisons?
    They are not the same. If you believe they are, this Cosina lens is totally insanely priced as you can get a "much faster" 50mm lens plus a 35mm full frame DSLR for the same price of this lens and a suitable camera.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    "They are not the same."
    Vivek, I don't understand exactly what you are replying to here.

    If the price is insane or not, well, it seems as folks here are going to buy it so the price is probably not totally insane. In this case the novelty and portability comes at a price. That price can be spelled IQ plus money.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Jonas, If the unit is a pixel then they aren't the same and hence the f stops come in handy while making the exposure.

    One can always find a way to argue themselves into believing somethings about DOF, f-stops (or "equivalents"), etc. But the reality may not be the same while tripping the shutter.

    You asked earlier if the price (Cosina 25/0.95) is OK?

    I am saying that if you believe it to be a 50/2 "equivalent" on a 35mm full frame (which it is not) then the price is insane, not withstanding any novelty or portability.

    For both (novel/portable), try the NEX-5. How useful it will be to you would be the price you would be paying to use it.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jonas, If the unit is a pixel then they aren't the same and hence the f stops come in handy while making the exposure.

    One can always find a way to argue themselves into believing somethings about DOF, f-stops (or "equivalents"), etc. But the reality may not be the same while tripping the shutter.
    Yes, you have found you way it seems. My experience (G1, 5D, 5DMkII) is different. Well, when the N25 becomes available I'll see the magic for myself.

    You asked earlier if the price (Cosina 25/0.95) is OK?

    I am saying that if you believe it to be a 50/2 "equivalent" on a 35mm full frame (which it is not) then the price is insane, not withstanding any novelty or portability.

    For both (novel/portable), try the NEX-5. How useful it will be to you would be the price you would be paying to use it.
    You may be surprised about the equivalence thing, so may I.
    A NEX is of no interest to me. For me the price would be too high. Different personal opinions is nothing new.

    So, when I buy the N25 I'm paying an insane price as I know equiv theories actually work? OK then, so be it. I already mentioned I have decided for 4/3 and take what I can get,

    I notice you are avoiding several of the questions asked earlier, you are just repeating "it is not the same" - something we already know.

    All this started with me talking about performance at the same FOV and DOF. Remember; "Well, when looking at the N25 samples the second and third time it hit me that we can't achieve the same results using our cameras and available lenses (N25 included) as any FF camera user with nearly any 50/2 lens mounted can." What in the N25 samples suggests anything else?

    /Jonas

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Interesting thanks. Great to get some shallow DoF with those half frame cameras. Those 25/0.95 pics look like 50/2 FF ones actually with harsher OOF than a good Summicron though.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    My Light-meter must be off....

    I Just took a photo with my G1 and adapted Zeiss 50mm f/1.5 C-Sonnar... ISO 100, f/1.5, @ 1/60 sec (2x Crop), Camera on "Aperture Priority" mode.

    I then put the lens on my Leica M5 (TTL metering), at ISO 100, f/1.5, 1/60 sec... (FF) the 2 meter needles crossed paths as needed for a proper exposure...

    Maybe I have a bad lens. The exposure was the same,
    I thought for sure that the G1 would need to adjust the shutter to 1/15 sec for a proper exposure with some of the mis-understanding I am reading.

    I'm done here....good luck Vivek
    Last edited by M5-Guy; 8th September 2010 at 13:09.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    So, discussing DOF only here, and for the sake of convenience I'll round 0.95 to 1, OK?...
    M5-Guy, how did you get f/1 equiv to f/1.5? In these discussions one usually multiply with the crop factor and finds a 25/1 lens is equiv to a 50/2 lens with regards to DOF. What's the reason for multiplying with a factor of 1.5?
    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    My Light-meter must be off....
    I wish you could have replied to the only thing I asked about. In case it was just a mistake on your part and my question hence was offending, well, I'm sorry.

    I also notice now that I read my post again that the sentence starting with "So they don't say the light gathering is the same..." was sloppily written and can be taken wrong. But the sentence following should that one should clear it up.

    All that about your light-meter and so on... I don't know what to say.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Whatever value one chooses for FF CoC, the latter will always be 2 times larger than FT's for the simple reason that the diagonal of FF sensors is 2 times longer than that of FT cameras. Then at full aperture, a 25/1 FT lens has merely the same DoF as a 50/2 FF one. Suffice it to check with any DoF formula. Works with any camera, film and sensor format IMHO.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Thanks for that explanation of the cropped sensor effect on bokeh, LCT. There are still some cropped sensor subjects that I don't understand, like: on a 25mm lens, on m4/3 camera, will the background compression still be that of a 25mm even though the FOV is magnified x2 (50mm?)

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Owen_Coors View Post
    (...) There are still some cropped sensor subjects that I don't understand, like: on a 25mm lens, on m4/3 camera, will the background compression still be that of a 25mm even though the FOV is magnified x2 (50mm?)
    A 4/3 image taken with at 25/2 will look exactly like a FF image taken at 50/4 (naturalmente disregarding the aspect of ratio difference, noise difference and assuming optically identically performing lenses and the same vantage point).

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Owen_Coors View Post
    ...on a 25mm lens, on m4/3 camera, will the background compression still be that of a 25mm even though the FOV is magnified x2 (50mm?)
    Depends if one refers to compression as a synonym of perspective or to the feeling of compression resulting from the combined effect of perspective and DoF.
    (a) Perspective remains the same if you stay exactly at the same place, i mean if you shoot your FT 25 from the exact same place as you would do with an FF 50. It is not a matter of focal length, aperture or shutter speed at all. See http://tinyurl.com/34g6xh6.
    (b) Even if perspective doesn't change, we may have a different feeling of compression due to a different DoF. To avoid this, perspective must remain the same and DoF must remain the same as well.
    By example, you'll get the same perspective and the same feeling of compression if you shoot your FT 25 at f/0.95 exactly from the same place as you would do with an FF 50 at f/1.9.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Is there anyone having seen more samples from the CV25/0.95 somewhere? I have now looked a couple pf times at the ones at ganref.jp and would like to see more.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    I will certainly try the lens if I can get hold of it in a couple of days. Unfortunately, I will not be making any brick wall snaps though- I will, if I am allowed, would make snaps in dark U bahn tunnels.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Oh, I trust your good judgement.
    I have however canceled my pre-order on basis of the samples discussed earlier in this thread. There must be some really good images with regards to optical performance, to make me re-consider.

    /Jonas

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Oh, I trust your good judgement.
    I have however canceled my pre-order on basis of the samples discussed earlier in this thread. There must be some really good images with regards to optical performance, to make me re-consider.

    /Jonas
    like you, i am waiting for more samples patiently making do with the 20/1.7 after selling my 5d . i pretty much agree about what you said on the ganref.jp samples. i also think they are not very good samples to represent this lens and hoping to see some better samples to push me to buy this lens.
    NEX and some manual glass

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Yup, we need more images.

    I was linked to a new and better price the other day; EUR 750, somewhere in France. As the f/0.95 number will be like magic for many I don't expect to see it for sale cheaper than that. That's still expensive IMO.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by kahren View Post
    like you, i am waiting for more samples patiently making do with the 20/1.7 after selling my 5d . i pretty much agree about what you said on the ganref.jp samples. i also think they are not very good samples to represent this lens and hoping to see some better samples to push me to buy this lens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Yup, we need more images.

    I was linked to a new and better price the other day; EUR 750, somewhere in France. As the f/0.95 number will be like magic for many I don't expect to see it for sale cheaper than that. That's still expensive IMO.

    I am willing to post nice samples if Cosina send me one at no charge.

    (I did not even look for Cosina stand yesterday as I did not have time for that)

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    I did manage a very quick play with the Nokton at the CV stand - not great pics as lighting was lousy and I was tired/in a rush etc... but for your reference here they are.

    Overall feel of lens is nice though it is quite long. Close focuses to .2 m but the focus ring didn't seem to have an end stop at that point which was weird






  49. #49
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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    I think wide open the Schneider 25mm f0.95 is better. Sharper with better control of CA. But a side by side would be good.

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    Re: Nokton 25/0.95 samples

    I posted my pics with the Nokton purely as a reference.. I had the opportunity to try the lens albeit in the worst possible circumstances.

    I agree the CA was pretty bad...and thats from a guy who almost never gives a toss about stuff like that. Not sure you can judge sharpness so well from my shots at i was shooting iso 400 and didn't really nail focus

    would I buy one ?... well I am the wrong guy to ask as I live in the same house as a Noctilux owner :-)

    K

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