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E5 vs D700--tests

nugat

New member
ooops, correction

First (hope-last) mistake. For "normal" 50mm f-length (25mm Oly) I gave the wrong crops of Nikon. They (nef 5426) were at f5.6 and not as should have been wide open at f4. Oly was wide open 25mm/f3.4 (100160).
Hereby the right pair of nef originating jpegs from Nikon 50mm/f4 #5429 to be compared directly with Oly 25mm/f3.4 #100160.
Sorry for that.
 
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nugat

New member
Back with some E5 pix

Just got back from Vilnius (Lithuania) with some pics to look at.
I decided to take only one combo: E5+12-60mm zuiko. Because of the semi-official character of the visit and almost no private time I thought carrying two large sets would be unpractical (if somewhat weird to my hosts).
I also know D700 well enough to compare it's behavious from memory , I believe, in given situations. Of course it'd have been better to have pics from both...Under the circumstances I should adjust the title of this thread to
" very subjective comparison...". Let it be.
The weather most of the time was lousy, near freezing, iron skies spilling icy rain, wind...Becasue of the low contrast most of the time, I decided to set JPGs to "dramatic effect", which increases contrast in camera. I also had raws written down. At some points I also took JPEGs in "natural" effect position. I know the "dramatic effect " is just a gimmick and will wear off very soon. Well , I liked it for the gig. I took it off for night pics.
The E5 was either in P or A, all pics with the 12-60mm zuiko.
All pics no post whatsoever, not even crops. I used Oly Viewer (hate that soft). The raws were converted straight to max quality jpegs, no manipulation (ca 2:1 compression, visually lossless).
You will see two galleries: 1)Vilnius 2010 and 2)Vilnius 2010 (raw>jpg).
The first one is is 1280x960 impressions of the city, a lot of OOC "dramatic effect".
The second is a choice of Olympus Viewer raws>jpegs (big, 3-7MB) with the possibility of download for pixel peeping. In two cases you can compare jpegs OOC (picture number ending with a "b") with the ones from Olympus Viewer conversion of ORFs to JPEGs (picture number ending with "a").
All EXIFs included. Please pay attention to what ISO was used when.
Only for personal use, please. Copyrights in force/embedded. You need to write the address below (without start/end):
STARThttp://gallery.me.com/nugat#galleryEND
 
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nugat

New member
E5 and D700--subjective comparison

Subjective comparison, that's what it should have been called from the beginning: as the time , resources and willingness needed for an objective scientfic "test" were never at my disposal nor in my plans.
I am not a pro, barely an enthusiast. I have been looking for a "system" (camera + lens, preferably one main lens) to serve my hobbyist needs for some years. I went through early Canon Rebels, Leica and primes, Canon FF (5D and 5Dm2), micro 4/3, Nikon FF (D700) and now finally Olympus E5 and Zuiko glass. I did not like early rebel digital quality, Leica prime hassle and price, Canon focus, micro 4/3 flimsiness and Nikon color.
I liked all those systems for their many merits and the Nikon D700 has been for sure the best overall camera I have ever used. If my living depended on photography that would be the system for an exclusive use. That's what the pros use after all for a reason.
I was also intent on minimizing my lens line, hopefully to one walkabout universal zoom and 1-2 fast primes. When E5 appeared it was the only contender in sight for my D700 and the new 24-120VR .
I have used the E5 for barely a week now. And after the week here is an enthusiast's verdict: D700 or E5?
And the answer is....
E5.

BODY.
I have both systems in front of me.
Both look very good with their 24-120 (12-60) zooms.
D700 is bigger and more "heavy" looking. Especially the VR glass adds heft.
I take them in my right hand (I am an average 5'11''/180cm male). Yes, the Nikon is "ever so slightly" too big. Some 20%. In fact that 20% matters a lot when you walk the whole day with the camera in you right hand (the way I like is with the strap around the foreram, so even when I let the grip go the camera hangs there safely). For big guys the difference is negligible, for smaller individuals --not so. The E5 simply feels better in my hand for hours on and on.
I take the cameras to my eye. Nikon has a bigger VF and can be turned on one hand with the index finger (in fact it does not matter as I leave both cameras on at all times). It has additional dedicated controls for exposure pattern and AF. The Olympus has a great articulating LCD with actually useful and usable one-button live view. The Nikon LV is a joke by comparison. I never liked it and rarely used. I like the good LV and the articulating LCD a lot. All other than above aspects of ergonomics are a wash for me. Overall , for an enthusiast, slight advantage Olympus.

LENS
I knew there is something about Zuiko when I put my 50/2 macro onto GH1 an saw the best picture pixel-for-pixel overall from any glass, Leica non-excluded. That from a 400$ small and light prime.
What I was not ready for, is that the level of performance can be maintained from HG grade (semi-pro, SHG is "pro") Zuiko ZOOM lens. The 1000$ 12-60mm/f2.8-4 Zuiko is the most amazing piece of glass I have ever owned. Small and light (580g) for it's features, it matches my best primes so far at all f-stops and f-lengths (except of course it's slower than Hexanon 60/1.2 or Summilux 35/1.4). Surprisingly enough it matches in IQ the dedicated 4/3 primes such as zuiko 50/2 or summilux D 25/1.4. Not only in resolution but also all other aspects of picture quality.
The 24/f1.4 on D700 is also amazing. The best piece of fast/wide prime glass ever mounted on best FF sensor for truly clean high ISO photography. In my tests that combo reaches 2300lw/ph, and the 6400ISO still has nice photo grain to it. Unbeatable. I was hoping the new 24-120/4 VR will be the main walkabout lens and the 24mm the choice prime to constitute the whole system. The 24-120VR is a very good lens, definitely better than the old non-VR one and in some opinions matching the f2.8 line of zooms.
But Zuiko is overall better. More uniform performance across the frame, smaller, no annoying (to me) VR sound. (E5 is overall quieter than D700).
I tried the 25/1.4 summilux D as the low light prime for my E5. It is 2 stops gain allright. But is it really worth the hassle? The AOV is somewhat too narrow for my liking and the 12mm at f2.8 really meets most of my needs when in 1600 ISO. Of course it's good to have this Lux in reserve.
The best combination would be one D700+24/1.4 and one E5+12-60.
If I was to choose one combo, it's Olympus again.

SYSTEM
The Nikon AF might have an edge for fast moving subjects (sports pro reporting). Maybe also at very low light levels, but a serious test is needed here. For me Oly AF is suffciently good for my needs.
I don't like Nikon picture, especially jpegs, and I like what comes directly from Olympus, whether raws or jpegs.
I am fairly proficient at LR, but don't enjoy postproduction.
With Nikons it's always a lot of post to get what I like. JPEGs are hopeless, corrections of raws first, then NIK output Sharpener at the end. All the work in front of the computer (my family hate me too for that) I do not enjoy at all.
When I saw JPEGs from EP1 some time ago I just loved them. Same with E5 now with one additional remark. The raws (ORFs) and JPEGs ar so sharp I need no NIK sharpener any more. This is really amazing, but the E5 pics are almost too sharp for my EIZO ColorEdge 1920x1200, 24 inch monitor. The pixel pitch on it is too big for them and single pixels are outlined and visible when you look close at 100%! Only on the main monitor, Apple iMac 27 inch the pixels disappear at 100% as the monitor resolution is bigger than EIZO's and the pixel pitch is smaller.
I have never seen anything like that before at the pixel level. So the "pixel sharpness" exists after all...?
In fact, I do not care so much for pixel peeping, 100% and such.
When in web/email mode my pix are 1280 wide for compatibility.
When displaying they are 1920x1080 in HD projection.
When printing at A3+, any such digital particularities like pixel sharpness or noise are very well levelled off.

CONCLUSION
I am an enthusiast, not a pro, and enjoy travel with my camera (also in rain, fog, wind) much more than sitting in front of the computer.
I also dislike changing lenses and too much work on focus, exposition etc.
I am a lazy amateur that likes his camera handy and pictures to look good
(to family and friends).
I like to send the pics from my laptop from my trips.
I like my equipment dependable and solid.
I am not a night predator.
I like to be slightly different.
I like Olympus E5.
 
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jonoslack

Active member
HI there
Thanks for that
Excellent - I'm really pleased to see that the E5 is such a good upgrade. I always knew what a wonderful lens that 12-60 Zuiko is. . . . and how good the Olympus colour is compared to Nikon.

It seems that they really have come up with a winner this time. I'm really glad to hear it as I've always had a soft spot for Olympus.

Now, why can't they make a smaller professional quality body? The features of the E5 in a body the size of the E1 with a shutter like the E1, and I'd be back to Olympus in a flash. Pentax have made the right body in the K5 - but the zoom lenses really aren't in the same league as the Olympus equivalents.

all the best
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
@ nugat

Thanks for this test, I especially like it as I am currently in Nikon and D700 when it comes to DSLR. I had the E3 and it did not work for me as the AF did not work properly - maybe only my camera - so I sold all that years ago.

Always loved the Zuiko glass and like to hear that the E5 seems to be a great camera. Will make me think wether I should go back to Oly again. Would also love some of their high speed zooms (14-35 and 35-100).

Great test, great effort!

Peter
 

nugat

New member
"Dramatic effect"

Thanks Jono and Peter.
Best to borrow an E5 body to play with, I guess.
I'll have some SHG (f2) glass to play with soon.
Peter.

PS.That's what "dramatic effect" pseudo HDR does to contrast and resolution. Use with caution.


@ nugat

Thanks for this test, I especially like it as I am currently in Nikon and D700 when it comes to DSLR. I had the E3 and it did not work for me as the AF did not work properly - maybe only my camera - so I sold all that years ago.

Always loved the Zuiko glass and like to hear that the E5 seems to be a great camera. Will make me think wether I should go back to Oly again. Would also love some of their high speed zooms (14-35 and 35-100).

Great test, great effort!

Peter
 
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Paratom

Well-known member
Very interesting thread. Thank You.

What I dont understand is that everybody states that as good as m4/3 sensors are there is a clear difference/disadvantage specially in DR and noise compared to larger sensors.
Now here it sounds (which I do not doubt) like the 4/3 does compare very well (except the very high ISO).
Is the E5 sensor better than m4/3 sensors?

I am also someone using the D700 and Nikon system but I follow new DSLRs because I am not 100% happy in 2 points:
1) Microdetail and skintones; I find my D700 images sometimes to look a bit artificial and skintones yellowish
2) weight vs bulk of lenses: While I want the optical quality of the professional zooms I find them pretty bulky and heavy; I could accept a little slower lens but want the optical quality. Canons approach with the 24-105/4.0 and with the 80-200/4.0IS I find appealing. Some of the Oly lenses (in this case the 12-60) sound appealing too.

Anyways-very interesting and thanks for posting
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I have similar issues with Nikon. To understand me right, the D700 plus all the new 2.8 glass 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 is GREAT. But very bulky! And it only gets you till 200 on the wide end. Anything in professional quality above that gets expensive (VERY EXPENSIVE) and heavy and bulky. The 200-400 for example, far too expensive and to heavy for me! For wildlife photography all animals would disappear when they see that lens :)

Anyway, I did not find any camera in FT which would have come close to the D700. I am not talking about D3X which would be my favorite, but this cam again is TOO heavy and bulky and expensive. And if I want higher resolution nothing will top my H3D39 anyway :D

The E5 seems to be the first pro DSLR for FT which comes pretty close to my needs. With all the wonderful Zuiko glass and maybe some Sigma primes if I want that. I am seriously considering if I should not change. Especially I am interested in the 14-35 as my standard lens and the 35-100, which must be a marvel. I owned the 2/150 with my E1 and I would go for that again, nothing can top this lens in that tele range. And if I get completely convinced, the 2.8/90-250 would be a great supplement, although pretty expensive! Well what you get is then a 2.8/500 in FF 35 - WOW!

And not to forget that these lenses could also be used on M43 with the right adapter - maybe not really as good and fast as on an E5 body, but ....

And if one can believe what Olympus tells the market, then there will be a Pro level camera for both M43 and 43 in the next time. Which would then hopefully work with a Kodak sensor again or at least with the new 18(16)MP Pana sensor of the GH2.

Kind of a bright future I think ... or am I wrong again?
 

jonoslack

Active member
I have similar issues with Nikon. To understand me right, the D700 plus all the new 2.8 glass 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 is GREAT. But very bulky!

. . . snip . . .

Especially I am interested in the 14-35 as my standard lens and the 35-100, which must be a marvel. I owned the 2/150 with my E1 and I would go for that again, nothing can top this lens in that tele range. And if I get completely convinced, the 2.8/90-250 would be a great supplement,
But the trouble Peter is that these lenses are ALL very bulky (pretty much the same as their Nikon counterparts).
 

jonoslack

Active member
What I dont understand is that everybody states that as good as m4/3 sensors are there is a clear difference/disadvantage specially in DR and noise compared to larger sensors.
Now here it sounds (which I do not doubt) like the 4/3 does compare very well (except the very high ISO).
Is the E5 sensor better than m4/3 sensors?
I think it's the same sensor isn't it?

What gets me is everyone going on about how small 4/3 sensors are in comparison, but actually, in terms of height, there really is very little difference, more in width, but of course thats 3:4 rather than 2:3 aspect ratio.

There isn't any reason why 4/3 sensors shouldn't be within a gnat's crotchet of APSc in terms of high ISO and quality . . . just that they haven't been in the past.

all the best
 

ricseet

New member
Hi Nugat, thank you for taking the time to run the so called 'subjective comparison" and sharing the results with us. Good to know that you like it as much as your D700.

cheers and have a nice day

ric
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I think it's the same sensor isn't it?

What gets me is everyone going on about how small 4/3 sensors are in comparison, but actually, in terms of height, there really is very little difference, more in width, but of course thats 3:4 rather than 2:3 aspect ratio.

There isn't any reason why 4/3 sensors shouldn't be within a gnat's crotchet of APSc in terms of high ISO and quality . . . just that they haven't been in the past.

all the best
yes, depends also which format one uses more. if you crop the 3:2 full frame to 4:3 fromat the difference is much smaller than cropping a 4/3 to 3:2 format.

Still people say dx is better than 4/3 and ff better than dx, and now we say the new generation 4/3 is as good as ff?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I think it's the same sensor isn't it?

What gets me is everyone going on about how small 4/3 sensors are in comparison, but actually, in terms of height, there really is very little difference, more in width, but of course thats 3:4 rather than 2:3 aspect ratio.

There isn't any reason why 4/3 sensors shouldn't be within a gnat's crotchet of APSc in terms of high ISO and quality . . . just that they haven't been in the past.
The E-5 sensor is the same sensor family as the E-PL1/etc but uses a different anti-aliasing filter and different (higher performance) supporting hardware/firmware to output the image data (both raw and JPEG), which makes a significant difference.

I went from using Canon 1.6x sensor cameras to Pentax 1.5x sensor cameras to FourThirds. Since I prefer the squarer format, a 7.5 Mpixel FourThirds camera nets approximately the same pixel density as I was getting out of the other two formats' 10Mpixel class cameras when it comes to how I framed my photos.

I haven't seen a drop in image quality comparing the several tens of thousands of prior images to the FourThirds image stock of similar size. There are certainly differences in sensitivity but they're much smaller than the rumors and myths would have you believe. Going from the K10D to the L1 cost a little less than a stop's sensitivity with the raw tools of that time. Now ACR and Lr3 have advanced and the L1 is at par with the K10D. The E-5 is a couple of generations development later and nets a 2-3 stop improvement over that generation/size class of camera sensors.

This puts it on par with the best in this sensor size class. "Full Frame" sensors of the same density have 4x the photosite area and so generally are a bit more sensitive, by 1-2 stops.

But sensitivity is not the only metric by which to judge camera performance, just as megapixels isn't either. There's a lot more to camera performance than that, and then there's lens performance on top of it.

All I can say without getting goofy about it is that the E-5 gives me the flexibility and produces results that I am very satisfied with, and that my clients will be very happy with its output too.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I'll bet that the lens selection helps. Some people have switched to the latest, best dSLR and now don't find the lenses that they need:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=36924786
Exactly Clark. That's me
Worth mentioning that the reason for buying the Pentax (no switch, just an extra) was to use the Pentax limited prime lenses, and to buy something which seemed to be the spiritual successor to the E1 (my alltime favorite camera) - not to find the zoom lens of my dreams!

But I would never have left Olympus (over 2 years ago now), if they had fulfilled the promise of the E1, and brought out a SMALL, QUIET, weathersealed dSLR.

It's worth noting in this context, that a quick comparison between the Pentax K5 and the Olympus E1 (which I have beside me) shows that the K5 is slightly smaller, noticeably quieter (yes - that surprised me too), and feels just as solidly built.

For my own purposes the E5 is a no starter because of it's size (if I'm going to have something that big I may as well use my A900 instead) . But that's just me, and I'm really glad to see that the camera is good, because that Zuiko 12-60 is, without doubt, my alltime favorite zoom.
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
yes, depends also which format one uses more. if you crop the 3:2 full frame to 4:3 fromat the difference is much smaller than cropping a 4/3 to 3:2 format.

Still people say dx is better than 4/3 and ff better than dx, and now we say the new generation 4/3 is as good as ff?
Sure, FF is better than DX and DX better than 43 - all a matter of physics.

BUT - when 43 reached a certain level, as they have reached today (or almost today) and now the smaller sensor size in combination with innovative features (almost no AA filter, better processing engine and stellar optics) gets very interesting and can even win against FF depending on your needs.

Think of the following: back in film days I was already more than happy with ISO800 (I think it was Fuji) which I could occasionally push to ISO1600. Today you can get ISO1600 out of all these Pro DSLRs with much better quality - not to speak about 3200 and 6400. What are we discussing here? Clean ISO 120000 or what? Who really needs that? At least I know I do not.

So end of the day all these sensors have reached a technical status of High ISO IQ which is sufficient to take also great images at very low light. And if there is NO light then I DO NOT CARE!

If you fall back to these basics, then yes - there is no significant difference in the sensors.

The difference is rather in the optics. Which can offer additional speed like in the example of high speed Zuiko zooms.

Remains what one prefers. In this case I tend to prefer better optics, which are relatively smaller and faster. I think that 43 has kind of reached the necessary maturity level.

And not to forget - one main feature why it became as good as it is is the almost non existent AA filter. I never understood why CanNikon and other can not get rid of this very bad thing, which seems to be a relict of the very early days of digital photography.
 
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jonoslack

Active member
And not to forget - one main feature why it became as good as it is is the almost non existent AA filter. I never understood why CanNikon and other can not get rid of this very bad thing, which seems to be a relict of the very early days of digital photography.
Ah yes - because they don't like people to complain about moire I suppose.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
high ISO would no so much be my concern. I would be more afraid of DR/highlight tonality.

Talking lenses: So the zooms from Oly seem to be very good?! What about a prime for Portraits. Is there a good choice?



Sure, FF is better than DX and DX better than 43 - all a matter of physics.

BUT - when 43 reached a certain level, as they have reached today (or almost today) and now the smaller sensor size in combination with innovative features (almost no AA filter, better processing engine and stellar optics) gets very interesting and can even win against FF depending on your needs.

Think of the following: back in film days I was already more than happy with ISO800 (I think it was Fuji) which I could occasionally push to ISO1600. Today you can get ISO1600 out of all these Pro DSLRs with much better quality - not to speak about 3200 and 6400. What are we discussing here? Clean ISO 120000 or what? Who really needs that? At least I know I do not.

So end of the day all these sensors have reached a technical status of High ISO IQ which is sufficient to take also great images at very low light. And if there is NO light then I DO NOT CARE!

If you fall back to these basics, then yes - there is no significant difference in the sensors.

The difference is rather in the optics. Which can offer additional speed like in the example of high speed Zuiko zooms.

Remains what one prefers. In this case I tend to prefer better optics, which are relatively smaller and faster. I think that 43 has kind of reached the necessary maturity level.

And not to forget - one main feature why it became as good as it is is the almost non existent AA filter. I never understood why CanNikon and other can not get rid of this very bad thing, which seems to be a relict of the very early days of digital photography.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
high ISO would no so much be my concern. I would be more afraid of DR/highlight tonality.

Talking lenses: So the zooms from Oly seem to be very good?! What about a prime for Portraits. Is there a good choice?
The E-5 is demonstrating over 11.5 stops of dynamic range @ ISO 200, in my informal testing.

Olympus' high-grade zooms are on par with most prime lenses for performance. Their super-high-grade zooms exceed most premium prime lenses' performance. Even the Olympus standard-grade lenses are darn good.

... I tend to prefer using prime lenses as a matter of shooting style, but the Zuiko Digital 14-35mm f/2 lens puts even the excellent Panasonic/Leica Summilux-D 25mm f/1.4 ASPH (my most-used lens) to the test.

Depending on what kind of portraiture I'm doing, I use one of either the Summilux-D 25/1.4, the ZD 35mm f/3.5 Macro, the ZD 50mm f/2 Macro or the ZD 50+EC-14 (a 70mm f/2.8 Macro combination) normally. All return exceptional quality photos. The 35mm is one of my favorite choices as I like to work in close often and it provides just the right short-portrait FoV, superb imaging quality, and costs less than $200.
 
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