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Thread: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

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    Member agoglanian's Avatar
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    Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Have you guys seen this??

    EOSHD.com - Kipon introduce Canon-Micro 4/3rds lens adapter with mechanical aperture control

    What are your thoughts on an adapter that has an adjustable aperture included?
    Analog // Digital

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    It's better than nothing, but probably isn't as good as being able to adjust the aperture on the lens itself. But then again, the adapter that allows you to do that will cost about $700...
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Hi

    cute find ... thanks :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by agoglanian View Post
    What are your thoughts on an adapter that has an adjustable aperture included?
    well I see you have a collection of EF lenses, so if you were wanting to add a G1 body to the bits you carry then you'd get some advantages. I mean I often think that a G1 makes a really excellent x2 teleconvertor (effectively speaking)

    On the other hand (for me) I think its pointless because if I was carrying around the bulk ans size of some of the larger EF lenses then a 20D would work better as a "teleconvertor" (assuming you use full frame).

    In this situation the advantages of the m4/3 compactness largely become unbeneficial.

    In terms of reliablity, sure, should be fine, it is after all just an iris ... I doubt it will have F stops written on it as the F stop will be a different diameter depending on the focal length.


    :-)

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    wow, that adapter is amazing!

    I know its a 4/3 forum, but hope they release it for the nex as well. I have the 50mm f1.2 It would be awesome to mount it on another camera body thats not canon, and yet it fully working in terms of aperture.

    bigs

  5. #5
    Zigot
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Nice find. Let's see how good and reliable this thing is.

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I do have a collection of EF lenses and have shot with them on m4/3 (G1 and GF1). I decided that if I wanted to use those lenses I'm better off using with my 5D. Then, I don't care at all about tele shooting.

    That adapter is getting no love on various forums with some saying that it isn't going to work well and citing a number of reasons which I won't go into.


    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    Hi

    cute find ... thanks :-)



    well I see you have a collection of EF lenses, so if you were wanting to add a G1 body to the bits you carry then you'd get some advantages. I mean I often think that a G1 makes a really excellent x2 teleconvertor (effectively speaking)

    On the other hand (for me) I think its pointless because if I was carrying around the bulk ans size of some of the larger EF lenses then a 20D would work better as a "teleconvertor" (assuming you use full frame).

    In this situation the advantages of the m4/3 compactness largely become unbeneficial.

    In terms of reliablity, sure, should be fine, it is after all just an iris ... I doubt it will have F stops written on it as the F stop will be a different diameter depending on the focal length.


    :-)

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    Member agoglanian's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I hope to add a GH2 to my lineup in the future and I figured I have all this wonderful Canon glass that could be used for video purpose (mostly on a tripod).
    Analog // Digital

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I bet anything this adapter will not work. An iris needs to be at a fairly specific location relative to the nodal point in the light path to affect DOF correctly or at all - AFAIK. In all cases except a mirror lens this is in front of the rear element. Many zoom lenses even adjust the position of the IRIS as you zoom the lens in and out in order to accommodate these facts.

    So if I'm not mistaken all this thing will do is increase the vignetting and lower the exposure values. It won't cure the softness and/or CA that wide open fast lenses often exhibit and it won't affect DOF as it should either.

    I hate to be the naysayer here but this thing seems like a bad joke to me.

    Of course everything that I thought I understood up until now could all be wrong and it'll work just fine. Hehehe... There's always that possibility.
    Last edited by Tesselator; 10th December 2010 at 22:19.

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    Member agoglanian's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I agree in being suspicious of it. I've no idea if it would work. I'll let Andrew over at EOSHD try it out first and wait for his report.
    Analog // Digital

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Ouh ... stop it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    I do have a collection of EF lenses and have shot with them on m4/3 (G1 and GF1). I decided that if I wanted to use those lenses I'm better off using with my 5D. Then, I don't care at all about tele shooting.
    I've been trying to convince myself I don't need a 5D ... you see especially that you add that you don't care about tele shooting reminds me that my 21, 24 and 50mm lenses are just crying out to me to be used on the larger frame size.

    for me 50mm is the turn around point, after that the same "view" looks better (to me) on the 4/3 format, but for shallow normals and shallow wides the larger capture frame just rocks.

    f2.8 on a 24mm may vignette a little but getting that big aperture and shallow DoF when focused closer just doesn't exist yet on the smaller frame. Sure I have a 12mm f1.3 which I use on the G1, but it doesn't cover the 4/3 frame.

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    Senior Member hot's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I am using my Canon lenses also with GH1, NX10, NEX5 ...

    Either they have manual aperture - or I can fix each aperture with each lens (using Canon body).
    An expensive adapter with manual aperture is not necessary (for me) - I would need such an (expensive) adapter for each camera. And it is not necessary for my Canon Samyangs - very good lenses with manual aperture (best solution).

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I think it works.
    Judging from al those experiments people have done with adding "baffles" to their FF lenses in some vague hope it should lessen the veiling flare... only to discover what they have done is effectively having stopped the lens down.
    I don't have any EF lenses anymore. I can however see a use with the adapter together with some Zeiss C/Y lenses and combined with a C/Y->EF adapter.

    Diane, what's the reason not to go into the negativities? Or, maybe better, do you have a link to a forum discussion where the adapter gets no love for a real reason and not only because of speculations?

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    It would seem odd to me that an experienced adapter maker like Kipon would not have put this device through thorough testing without putting it out to market. I think it will work.

    Keith

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Of course, I could be wrong - this is interesting

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22008

    Keith

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I'm often wrong, lol.
    The Zeiss C/Y lenses I was thinking oar of course longer than 11mm... and the baffle experiments have all been about 50 and 85mm lenses. I'm sure the Kipon adapter works with such lenses. I also think Kipon should mention with (some?) super wide angle lenses.

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    I think it works.
    Judging from al those experiments people have done with adding "baffles" to their FF lenses in some vague hope it should lessen the veiling flare... only to discover what they have done is effectively having stopped the lens down.
    I don't have any EF lenses anymore. I can however see a use with the adapter together with some Zeiss C/Y lenses and combined with a C/Y->EF adapter.

    Diane, what's the reason not to go into the negativities? Or, maybe better, do you have a link to a forum discussion where the adapter gets no love for a real reason and not only because of speculations?

    Jonas, it is mostly speculations LOL. However, Philip Bloom, the terrific videographer, has one coming and he's excited about using it primarily on his Panny camcorder with his EF lenses. He did say that it's best not greatly stopped down. I'll have to check his blog and when I find a link to his assessments I'll post it. I do have some EF lenses still for my 5D so I'm not dismissing it out of hand but I do prefer to mount my FDs and Nikkors to my G1 rather than my EOS with my RJ adapter and that's not even considering the aperture issues.

    Another thought. It would make it more feasible to carry my G1 or GF1 as backup for my 5D though.

    Diane

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    Jonas, it is mostly speculations LOL. However, Philip Bloom, the terrific videographer, (...)

    Another thought. It would make it more feasible to carry my G1 or GF1 as backup for my 5D though.
    OK, and Yes, respectively.

    Cheers,

    /Jonas

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Here's Philip's original post about the adapte
    http://philipbloom.net/2010/12/17/ex...gh1-gh2-af101/

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    I'm often wrong, lol.
    The Zeiss C/Y lenses I was thinking oar of course longer than 11mm... and the baffle experiments have all been about 50 and 85mm lenses. I'm sure the Kipon adapter works with such lenses. I also think Kipon should mention with (some?) super wide angle lenses.
    I'm almost 100% positive that it will not work with any lens - no matter the focal length. For an iris diaphragm to affect DOF and/or Spherical Aberration (SA) is must be located in the light path between the entrance pupil and the exit pupil. I think it has to be in "nodal space" between the "frontal principal node place" and the "rear principal node plane". Placing it after the exit pupil (outside the lens system), will only cause vignetting - by everything I know about lenses (which actually isn't all that much ). It might be an extremely soft vignetting and the darkened areas may seem "different" but they are only darkened. If you just want darkening then use a neutral density filter. The designers of this adapter might have been better off creating a rear filter holder in their adapter instead of this thing. :P

    As I mentioned before zoom lenses even use a floating iris diaphragm to ensure that the blade edges will be located in the correct position within the light path.

    One cannot just stick an iris in front or in back of a lens and expect it to work like one that's internal.

    I guess this goes to show that someone can be a "terrific videographer" and not know #$%@ about optics.
    Last edited by Tesselator; 19th December 2010 at 11:30.

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    It does appear that he has it and is using it if you read the post because he discusses the issues but still thinks it's worthwhile. He can get infinity and close focus but says not to stop down past f6---and more. I've followed his blogs for a good while on gear, lenses, camera bodies and he doesn't use it if it doesn't work for him. He also mentions there are other adapters coming that may not have some of these issues but this is the best available for now.

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    I'm almost 100% positive that it will not work with any lens (...)
    One cannot just stick an iris in front or in back of a lens and expect it to work like one that's internal.

    I guess this goes to show that someone can be a "terrific videographer" and not know #$%@ about optics.

    Bif, I'm sure you are right, basically, about where a proper aperture should be. But is that the point?

    I'm pretty sure it works with the focal lengths of my interest; the fast 50 to 100mm range. I base this on no theory at all, I know nothing about optics except from what I've learned by experience. I'm confident though that somebody intelligent well versed expert on this forum can explain everything, or at least give us a link to a ton of Zeiss white papers, lol.

    I mentioned many have tried to make baffles for their fast 50mm lenses. The only effect that has been seen from all this work has been images that effectively have been looking as the lens has been stopped down.

    I don't recall when I last stopped down beyond f/4 or so. Now, if this adapter allows a reasonable result from these fast lenses between say f/1.2 to f/4 matching what these lenses would do if they were internally stopped down, then there is definitely a use for this adapter. No more Zeiss sawtooth bokeh! No more ugly hexa, or octo-, gonals.

    OTOH, it may be that Kipon never tried their idea before manufacturing and starting to sell the adapters. Then the incredible video guy is bought buy them and promotes the useless stuff along with a couple of those having commented the product at his site. Nothing is impossible.

    EDIT: I didn't see your reply, Diane, before starting to type this. The next generation adapter Phil mentions is the electronic one working as a full flange interface between the Panasonic cameras and the EF lenses. That is cool, but expensive and probably worth it for the hard core video maniacs only. I woul dthink a fully manual lens will be the best one in most of the cases... with a stepless aperture....

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    For an iris diaphragm to affect DOF and/or Spherical Aberration (SA) is must be located in the light path between the entrance pupil and the exit pupil. I think it has to be in "nodal space" between the "frontal principal node place" and the "rear principal node plane".
    I think you are confusing a number of terms here. First off, there are many optical systems in which there isn't any space between the entrance and exit pupils. In fact in many systems the exit pupil lies in front of the entrance pupil. This seems counter intuitive, but it is very common. The entrance/exit pupils are typically the virtual images of the iris and for refractive systems often lie outside the optics and often opposite of what you'd expect (exit pupil lies to the object side of the optics, entrance to the camera side of the optics).

    Similarly, nodal points/planes (which are entirely different from the entrance and exit pupils) are often not physically inside the lens. This is in fact the entire point to telephoto and wide angle (aka reversed telephoto) designs - creating lenses that are either more compact than you'd imagine based on their focal length (telephoto) or shorter in focal length than would see possible based on the flange distance (wide angle).

    All that said, your larger point that the iris probably needs to be within a relatively narrow range of positions (and most likely within the physical optics of the lens) is in all likely hood quite correct. An adapter like this will actually in all likely hood act much like an aperture stop but it will be sub-optimal - many aberrations won't be as corrected as you'd expect when stopping down and the image circle could be adversely affected (vignetting, but since these are FF lenses not likely to be a big deal).

    Ken

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    Member agoglanian's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    Of course, I could be wrong - this is interesting

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22008

    Keith
    I commented in that thread because the guy is complaining that it won't work with the Tokina 11-16mm lens which is meant for Canon EF-S bodies. The Kipon people said SPECIFICALLY that the adapter will not work with EF-S lenses.

    .... Just a thought.
    Analog // Digital

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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    I wish people will stop making big statement without any reasonable knowledge or experience about a product. May be this video will help us to see some of the good and bad of the new Kipon adapter. The shooter used 7 different lenses on the adapter, from Zeiss, Olympus and Canon lenses, and they all seem to be working with the adapter:
    http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/17821964

    One thing that you cannot tell from the video is how much does the aperture affect the image quality of stills. In theory, the image quality should not have suffer too much if any. But, I will wait for someone's comment after he/she posts some still images taken with the new adapter. Talk is cheap and seeing is believing.
    Stephen Lau
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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS lens adapter with aperture included.

    K. Walsh,
    Thanks for the clarifications! Very helpful and informative!

    slau,
    Cool video. Nice find. For most of the tests it works about like I thought... not very well to say the least. Some of the tests were pretty surprising tho and I'd have to say that "it worked" for those.

    Interesting!

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