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Thread: Off-topic

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    Off-topic

    This is SO off-topic.......but I was just perusing another M43 forum on a well traveled digital photo review site (if you get my gist).....

    and I am astounded by how incredibly rude and thoughtless some (hopefully a small minority) of the posters are......I mean REALLY rude.

    So, I just want to thank Guy and Jack and all the members who regularly contribute here in creating an environment where people of all levels of photography can share their photos, viewpoints and experiences without the negativity that quenches one's desire to participate.

    R

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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich M View Post
    This is SO off-topic.......but I was just perusing another M43 forum on a well traveled digital photo review site (if you get my gist).....

    and I am astounded by how incredibly rude and thoughtless some (hopefully a small minority) of the posters are......I mean REALLY rude.

    So, I just want to thank Guy and Jack and all the members who regularly contribute here in creating an environment where people of all levels of photography can share their photos, viewpoints and experiences without the negativity that quenches one's desire to participate.

    R
    +1

    Get DPI is a great site, wonderful people who contribute and appreciate the moderators who monitor the threads!

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    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    I used to very active at that site, even have 2 ID's (separate Emails), That I thought might help start a fresh. I just got so tied of the Rude and Un-becoming replies.

    I now go here and two other m4/3 sites, and all 3 (includes GETdpi), are a friendly and informed membership

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    DPR is a very weird place! It's not for the faint of heart or people who are easily offended by text. There's some good info to be gleaned there but it is a zoo to be sure. The place seems to be infested with self-proclaimed experts who really just don't know cheese from chips. I think that's what inspires the rudeness there. People who do know what they're talking about "setting it straight" so to speak. I've done it there once or twice myself. It's a site I feel perfectly comfortable saying: 'You obviously don't know what you're talking about or have been terribly misled!'

    Places like this are friendly and all but disinformation and misinformation often passes for fact as people are often too timid or polite to say otherwise. So I go to places like DPR and FM for the actual low-down and places like this and other communities for friendly chit-chat and humanized communication.

    FM and MF seem to be nice mixtures of the two types while Get DPI is probably the best example of the friendly type - mu-43 too maybe. DPR I find is completely different from sub-forum to sub-forum. It's mostly only the Micro Four Thirds sub-forum there that's full of weenies.
    Last edited by Tesselator; 8th January 2011 at 19:46.

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    Senior Member M5-Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    DPR is a very weird place! It's not for the faint of heart or people who are easily offended by text. There's some good info to be gleaned there but it is a zoo to be sure. The place seems to be infested with self-proclaimed experts who really just don't know cheese from chips. I think that's what inspires the rudeness there. People who do know what they're talking about "setting it straight" so to speak. I've done it there once or twice myself. It's a site I feel perfectly comfortable saying: 'You obviously don't know what you're talking about or have been terribly misled!'

    Places like this are friendly and all but disinformation and misinformation often passes for fact as people are often too timid or polite to say otherwise. So I go to places like DPR and FM for the actual low-down and places like this and other communities for friendly chit-chat and humanized communication.

    FM and MF seem to be nice mixtures of the two types while Get DPI is probably the best example of the friendly type - mu-43 too maybe. DPR I find is completely different from sub-forum to sub-forum. It's mostly only the Micro Four Thirds sub-forum there that's full of weenies.
    Even non timid people have left that site. I remember a few very good photographers (BootStrap for one), who really engaged in many topics and one day, I stopped seeing his activity. He could and did "Get In To It" at times.

    I still go there to keep up with current threads.
    You can start reading any thread, and within 10 posts, the original topic has changed to gear talk, or just plan internal fighting from 2 or 3 members having a private/public drag out insult fight. It may take another 20 replies before it gets back on topic, or the thread just dies, unanswered. 80% of the time. IMO

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    The funniest part is when some poor soul makes the serious mistake of posting a photo, and one of the self appointed forum police generals comes running, informing the world in a not too polite language what he and his comrades think of that kind of off topic activities on a gear related forum

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by M5-Guy View Post
    Even non timid people have left that site. I remember a few very good photographers (BootStrap for one), who really engaged in many topics and one day, I stopped seeing his activity. He could and did "Get In To It" at times.

    I still go there to keep up with current threads.
    You can start reading any thread, and within 10 posts, the original topic has changed to gear talk, or just plan internal fighting from 2 or 3 members having a private/public drag out insult fight. It may take another 20 replies before it gets back on topic, or the thread just dies, unanswered. 80% of the time. IMO
    That sounds about right. Maybe the rude people are the balancing factor there. So it's like the place get's swamped with lamers and OT chatter, and then the rude people come in (current condition), and all the chat hounds leave because of it, the rude people also go because there's no one left to take their troll bait, and only a few thick skinned vets are left and it becomes a nice site again. Hehehe... Like the natural order of social forums or something.

    Anyway with about 500 new posts a day not everyone has left there.

    .

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    Issue is that most members on other forums take things (gear and gear decisions) personal. One of the worst sites (I think even worse tan any 43 and M43) is LUF - Leica User Forum. I finally stopped posting there and only very occasionally have a look on what is new, most times to find out that there is almost nothing new and things did not change.

    I love this at the GetDPI forum, as you still can say you do not like a specific camera or lens or system and this will be accepted. This is exactly how it should be!

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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Issue is that most members on other forums take things (gear and gear decisions) personal.
    Yes, this is something I've also wondered about. People identify themselves so deeply with consumer products they own that any criticism on the product becomes a personal offence.

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    Re: Off-topic

    If it wasn't for that D** site, we wouldn't know how good we have it over here. Contrast right?
    This is a great place with strong but gentle guidance from the Mod team.
    There's another forum I like but I can't remember the name at the moment...

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    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    This is a photography forum....a paradise !

    The others are only discussion boards.....
    __________________________________________________
    Part of the Wonderland
    see more ( NSFW ) on : http://www.klaweide.de

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    Re: Off-topic

    We can certainly be very, how shall I put it gently, blunt and direct on this site as well, but in general I think the level of maturity is higher so other than some roughed up feathers conversations don't generally sink into rudeness. We have our share of lively exchanges =).
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich M View Post

    So, I just want to thank Guy and Jack and all the members who regularly contribute here in creating an environment where people of all levels of photography can share their photos, viewpoints and experiences without the negativity that quenches one's desire to participate.
    You are welcome!

    Seriously, it is our membership that makes GetDPI special. When Guy and I set out, our main goal was to make this a site where folks could discuss IMAGES along with the gear, software and techniques used to create them. Photography is about creating images after all, right? Obviously, discussing gear is an important and enjoyable part of that process, but we try to keep the perspective that in the end, it is the image that counts.

    To be sure, we've had to ban a few of the negative nellies from the other sites, as they were determined to have their brand of forum arguing one-upsmanship going on here which we won't stand for -- and I think that helps keep our environment so positive.

    So from both Guy and myself, thank YOU all for making this the friendly, welcoming site it is!

    Best,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    Yes, this is something I've also wondered about. People identify themselves so deeply with consumer products they own that any criticism on the product becomes a personal offence.
    Yeah, I've always found that particularly peculiar as well. If I hadn't done the same thing myself once with the Amiga computer I would be thinking that the world had gone completely bonkers! Even so, I retained some modicum of introspect. I think that's the missing element in those who are the subject of the current topic - introspect.

    It's also interesting to notice how different cultures deal with these things. People from different countries (or areas of the planet) often display behaviors that fall into a few specific identifiable stereotypes. It's all good to me personally tho - they're just expressing their nature. I usually dig it - even when I become a target.

    What I hate more than any kind of rudeness is moderation where mods play favorites or become politically minded and try to control things. I call those places fascist and avoid them completely.

    Best case is self-moderation and that automatic word deletion with no moderation from human beings at all. People can choose to involve themselves with the last-word posters or not as they like.

    Just my 2

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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    (...)
    What I hate more than any kind of rudeness is moderation where mods play favorites or become politically minded and try to control things. I call those places fascist and avoid them completely.

    Best case is self-moderation and that automatic word deletion with no moderation from human beings at all. People can choose to involve themselves with the last-word posters or not as they like.

    Just my 2
    I have noticed some posters here also posting over at DPR behave in one way here and an other way at DPR, sometimes a totally different way. (I'm included, not totally different though.)
    Maybe some forum knowledgeable can explain why that is. I guess it has to do with the increased level of anonymity and the fact these forums are moderated. If so moderation can sometimes be good.

    Hmm... What you are saying here Tesselator is that you prefer DPR, can take GetDPI and dislike mu-43?

    Sometimes I like the chaos as it is at DPR. But, I do too often get involved in meaningless disputes with idiots. At the same time it is a dynamic place with a lot of good information and discussions among the crap.

    I took goodbye to mu-43 when the crew decided not to allow a single discussion on photographer's rights or copyright issues as the owner felt bad about allowing politics at his place. As I understood it it was also very important there that everything is kept super friendly. Is that why I see some frequent posters from there sometimes vent their opinion here and/or at DPR?

    I don't think I'm well suited for Internet forum discussions. After several years of trying, more or less hard admittedly, I regularly manage to make members upset also without having anything controversial in mind. I'm not interested enough I guess.

    I very much prefer sitting in a pub, or at home, having a beer (or tea) and a friendly conversation. It's OK here, or good really, but sometimes also a bit quiet for my taste.

    regards,

    /Jonas

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    Re: Off-topic

    Since we are "off-topic" the thing that has struck me over the last few months at Dpreview is how the "review" part has almost dried up. We keep on getting 'previews' of new cameras and then months pass by before they actually review the equipment. I find it strange because they are part of Amazon and you would have thought they'd pretty much full review cameras before they were publicly available. You'd expect that Amazon has the clout to get pretty much any equipment they want for review.

    Shame, really, because it is becoming a shadow of its former self.

    LouisB

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    Member Bill Gordon's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Since we are "off-topic" the thing that has struck me over the last few months at Dpreview is how the "review" part has almost dried up. We keep on getting 'previews' of new cameras and then months pass by before they actually review the equipment. I find it strange because they are part of Amazon and you would have thought they'd pretty much full review cameras before they were publicly available. You'd expect that Amazon has the clout to get pretty much any equipment they want for review.

    Shame, really, because it is becoming a shadow of its former self.

    LouisB
    One should remember that it originated in London England and was privately owned.....now it is located I think, in Seattle?? and owned by Amazon who is more interested in the business side of it with the advertising!

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    Re: Off-topic

    Excellent point Bill!

    Jonas, I'm not saying anything - not anything meaningful anyway, , Without facing the need to make a decision - from total lack of event stimulus - my words are only political postures. I haven't seen any moderation happen here at all nor have I seen any at DPR. So it's all relative to non-event.

    Why people act different? They perceive the environments differently. If you are placed in the middle of a crowd at a rock concert you act one way, If you are placed in a children's kindergarden class while in session, you act another.

    You, making someone else upset? Wow, how would it be - to have such power... No, you can't. Only they can upset themselves. For whatever reasons (probably associations with images or past declared alliances of some opinions they did or didn't identify with) they choose to interpret/extract/interject a feeling and a tone. It's their own choice tho! You have nothing to do with it. Aside from calling someone socially unacceptable names, our sentences can be interpreted in almost any way the reader wishes - actually even with name calling too. And the secondary choice - how to react once a perception is made, is equally as subjective - perhaps more-so. A mighty and angry rant can be interpreted as fun and light and casual commentary can be interpreted as hate-speech. We, each of us as readers, choose what emotions to tag it with/as. Once one person takes it in a particular way and reacts or retorts then others with less personal will assume a similar posture - or sometimes an opposing one but around the same points of contention. This is even true of image critiques. The first poster to critique the image(s) WAY more often than not, sets the direction for the next 5 or 10 posters - even if they don't read the words to themselves - all they have to do is see the text. If one looks at such threads objectively it almost looks like the individual posters just copy each other. This for me is another reason I hate moderation. There's just no way the mod can guess what a poster means or what their tone is without completely assuming almost every aspect all on his or her own. Even the phrases we trigger on are used and meant completely different from sub-culture to sub-culture. Of course someone with multiple experiences in on-line conflict is more enlightened as to which phrases are best avoided all together and how to defuse a situation once it occurs - but that's a learned skill and we're all at different stages of learning and on different paths. Anyway, the internet is one place where it really is them and not you - at least for the vast majority of cases...

    I dunno, just another 2...

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Since we are "off-topic" the thing that has struck me over the last few months at Dpreview is how the "review" part has almost dried up. We keep on getting 'previews' of new cameras and then months pass by before they actually review the equipment. I find it strange because they are part of Amazon and you would have thought they'd pretty much full review cameras before they were publicly available. You'd expect that Amazon has the clout to get pretty much any equipment they want for review.

    Shame, really, because it is becoming a shadow of its former self.

    LouisB
    For me dpreview has lost almost any credibility in meaningful testing. Almost all the tests and reviews they did in the last years of equipment I followed closely and some of it owned later turned out to be pretty useless.

    They already were arrogant while they were privately owned and London based - do not want to get into those details of the past.

    Only reason I visit their site anymore is, because they are pretty fast with new product announcements, so this helps to stay up to date if you want or need. The rest, especially their opinion about products just forget!

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    I seem to be posting a lot in this thread but I have to agree. Not only (almost) useless but also erred, both technically and generally. I still read the reviews tho - I just take them with a huge grain of salt and make certain I read other reviews as well.

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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    ... I just take them with a huge grain of salt and make certain I read other reviews as well.
    I agree. As far as I can see, reviews are reviews. Academic reviews pose a similar analogy.

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    Re: Off-topic

    There's another interesting phenomenon going on there: owners of cameras from one of the large manufacturers, Canon in particular, joining forces to ridicule any camera from other, smaller brands. It's going on at the discussion about the preview photos taken with the new Olympus XZ-1 now, and although some of the posts are a combination of uninformed blabber and outright lies, they get wide support from their buddies.

    It's like they're afraid that "alien" cameras will take market shares from "their" brand, something that has to be fought for any price. Although I can understand brand loyalty to a certain degree (most teenagers, including myself some 40 years ago, suffer from it), these guys fight it out as if it were a question of life and death. Or maybe it is, and I simply haven't understood it yet

    As for the reviews, they are getting increasingly technically advanced, and proportionally irrelevant to real-life photography. That, and the fact that a camera with interchangeable lenses can't be judged without taking the quality and cost of lenses into consideration, which neither they nor most of the other review sites do, makes the whole exercise rather uninteresting, except for the pixel peepers and the totally uninformed.

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    Re: Off-topic

    I had pretty much stopped posting over there because each time it ended up in a fight. I don't care about brands. I like to try and use different cameras and just tell it like I see it. It is most egregious on the m4/3 forum where anyone who doesn't bash the Sony is not patriotic to m4/3. So, I for one has a different tone over at DPReview in recent months. I hate how contentious the forum has gotten....so I don't even go except for the news most of the time.

    On the upside the forum is so big you can generally ask a more esoteric question and someone will have the answer.

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    Re: Off-topic

    Considering I own and use many brands of cameras and lenses (Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Fuji, Olympus, Sigma, etc) I don't need owners of other brands to "play" with, it is enough that I can replace whole DPR by arguing with myself.

    "Your NEX is a POS, Zoran"
    "Look who's talking, Zoran, it's your m43 that is a POS"
    "Listen Zorans, don't make me smack you both, everybody knows my D700 rules"
    "Zoran, have you seen that thread where guy proved that my S90 kicks your D700 up and down the block?"
    "You all Bayer Zorans have no clue, Foveon rules"

    Ouch, my head hurts. Somebody stop them, please.

    [/my sense of humor]

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    Re: Off-topic

    do you hear voices

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Considering I own and use many brands of cameras and lenses (Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Fuji, Olympus, Sigma, etc) I don't need owners of other brands to "play" with, it is enough that I can replace whole DPR by arguing with myself.

    "Your NEX is a POS, Zoran"
    "Look who's talking, Zoran, it's your m43 that is a POS"
    "Listen Zorans, don't make me smack you both, everybody knows my D700 rules"
    "Zoran, have you seen that thread where guy proved that my S90 kicks your D700 up and down the block?"
    "You all Bayer Zorans have no clue, Foveon rules"

    Ouch, my head hurts. Somebody stop them, please.

    [/my sense of humor]

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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    do you hear voices
    Shhhh, I can't hear what they are saying.

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    Re: Off-topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    Jonas, (...) I haven't seen any moderation happen here at all nor have I seen any at DPR. So it's all relative to non-event.

    Why people act different? They perceive the environments differently. If you are placed in the middle of a crowd at a rock concert you act one way, If you are placed in a children's kindergarden class while in session, you act another.

    You, making someone else upset? Wow, how would it be - to have such power... No, you can't.
    (...)
    I dunno, just another 2...
    Hi,

    I have definitely seen moderation here, and I think that has been good actions. At DPR the chaos is partly thanks to the fact the moderation is performed as a lottery where mods react upon the amount of complaints filling their in-boxes, lol. So, there is no forum with no moderation at all, or I don't think there is. Anyway, the forums can be used in different ways. I still believe their character mainly comes from how moderators moderate and presents their intentions.

    If I managed to make upset, or if somebody got upset by themselves after reading a post of mine... what's the difference? Or maybe the question is rhetoric. You have a point though and I should probably worry less about sensitive entities.

    Cheers,

    Jonas

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    Re: Off-topic

    Spend a day at DPR and get lost in the threads, fighting and BS. Then ask yourself what you learnt, probably nothing. Spend a few hours over here and you will learn a lot more, like my recent Macro thread, great contributions.
    I still visit the forums at DPR there are a few good ones, retouching I have always found good with little fighting. The Oly SLR is about the worst, there are some very educated technically brilliant posters, but do you ever see there work? and is it any good?
    not usually

  29. #29
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Off-topic

    Well there are (at least) two very different kinds of posters. There are those who are technically very knowledgable and almost never post images. And then there are those who post images but usually know very little on the technical side. To find someone who is a good and knowledgeable techy and also posts great images is extremely rare!

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