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Thread: Someone finally got it right!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Someone finally got it right! (EF --> M4/3 Adapter)

    Now, this ROCKS! I can't wait to get my hands on one! Now if only they can keep the price down around the $100 range.

    This is very exciting news indeed!


    I don't care about the IS nearly as much as I do simply getting aperture control! My idea would have been a wheel built into a battery operated adapter that could adjust the EF apertures manually but this is way better!

    Nice!
    Last edited by Tesselator; 19th January 2011 at 03:41.

  2. #2
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    looking forward to you getting your hands on one and giving us your good old tesselator review =) fingers crossed but i think supply and demand coupled with niche market (AF100) would probably bump this well over the $100 mark

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    If it's right around the $100 price-tag I certainly will. I'm scared tho. Some lamer retailers / VARs charge $100 ~ $150 just for a $10 ring (instead of the more normal 100% markup to $20 or so) which could give these guys license to charge $200 or $300 for it. If that happens I'll not be getting one. It's a political thing with me but if I think /that kinda thing/ is happening I just boycott.

    Hopefully it won't tho! I've been waiting for someone to "get it right" with EF mount for about a year now. I've even been tempted to make one myself - having a CS degree I'm sure it wouldn't be hard... Just need the pinouts and a few hours in my favorite CAD package is all.

  4. #4
    JoeBenjamin
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Sorry to burst your collective bubbles but it's going to cost about $700. That's a very advanced little ring of electronics there.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    And my CD walkman is even MORE advanced! Ooops... it costs $50.

    If they're really charging $700 for it I bet they sell less than 50 a year and then only for the first year or two.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Oh it's from government contracting: http://blip.tv/file/1941398/ and available for other cams like the Red. So yeah, it very well could be priced in outer space. Also this has wireless built in - an expensive feature not many Panasonic still users will be interested in.

    Damn! Well, maybe they'll release a feature scaled version for us penny-pinching normal people.

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    And my CD walkman is even MORE advanced! Ooops... it costs $50.

    If they're really charging $700 for it I bet they sell less than 50 a year and then only for the first year or two.
    You may have a degree in CS but I don't think your have much experience in the development and manufacture of limited production, high precision electronic products.

    I bet they don't expect to sell more than a couple hundred of them, ever. Very very few people are at all interested in using Canon EOS lenses on Micro-FourThirds bodies, even if the adapter costs $50.

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Give the Chinese a couple of months to come out with a clone and you'll be hard pressed to find one around the $40 mark; much like many clone adapters that can now be purchased for $20.

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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Here's part 2 and 3 for those wanting to know more about it. This is for the Red One tho and I dunno how dissimilar the M4/3 version is going to be. Part 3 is pretty revealing.

    Part 2: http://blip.tv/play/hKMX9659Ag
    Part 3: http://blip.tv/play/hKMX9%2BwGAg

    Godfrey, I have a few products I'v gone into commercial production with, so nya-nya!.

  10. #10
    Super Duper
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by brianb032 View Post
    Give the Chinese a couple of months to come out with a clone and you'll be hard pressed to find one around the $40 mark; much like many clone adapters that can now be purchased for $20.
    This is much more than a simple extension tube.

    There is only one company that has reversed the EOS AF and electronic aperture control (to date), and they've been offering a product for 5 years now, with no clones...

  11. #11
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Sigma? Or Birger? Ooops, that's two.

    But yeah, this thing does a lot more than I need!

  12. #12
    Super Duper
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Speaking of third party adapter companies, of course, as opposed to licensees like Sigma. Neither Sigma nor Birger are Chinese adapter manufacturers, unless I'm mistaken.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    AFAIK Sigma has no license! Their offerings are a product of reverse engineering. I thought that was common knowledge?

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    I think you are missing the point...a Chinese extension tube manufacturer is not Sigma; they aren't even Birger. I don't see a $20 clone of this happening, let alone in a couple of months.


    Give the Chinese a couple of months to come out with a clone and you'll be hard pressed to find one around the $40 mark; much like many clone adapters that can now be purchased for $20.

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    >Very very few people are at all interested in using Canon EOS lenses on Micro-FourThirds bodies, even if the adapter costs $50.

    In the movie world they love to use Canon lenses. The AF100 is a hot pro video camera right now:

    http://www.outbackphoto.com/CONTENT_...100/index.html

    The real kicker is that you can use a wireless remote (costs extra) to perform follow-focus.

    But it seems they had also some issues with the same adapter for the Red. Better wait and save.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I think you are missing the point...a Chinese extension tube manufacturer is not Sigma; they aren't even Birger. I don't see a $20 clone of this happening, let alone in a couple of months.
    Ah, I see. Yeah you're probably right. And I hope it never happens. Dang reds, playing by different (and inhumane) rules! Grrr!

    Still, I'm going to continue hoping Birger releases something for us normal lot and not just the pro video players.

    I want aperture control on EF dang-it!

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    Here's part 2 and 3 for those wanting to know more about it. This is for the Red One tho and I dunno how dissimilar the M4/3 version is going to be. Part 3 is pretty revealing.

    Part 2: http://blip.tv/play/hKMX9659Ag
    Part 3: http://blip.tv/play/hKMX9%2BwGAg

    Godfrey, I have a few products I'v gone into commercial production with, so nya-nya!.
    You're probably using some of the products I helped into the market, so nyah nyah right back. I've worked for Apple engineering on and off since 1991...

    What products have you shipped?

  18. #18
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    AFAIK Sigma has no license! Their offerings are a product of reverse engineering. I thought that was common knowledge?
    Sigma is a FourThirds consortium member and has full access to FourThirds lens mount and control protocol specifications. (They're not a Micro-FourThirds consortium member ... note they have not yet released any Micro-FourThirds lenses.)

    What their relationship is to Canon and Nikon, etc, I don't know ... they could reverse engineer the mounts or pay the licensing fees. I don't speculate.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    What products have you shipped?
    I'm not telling! But I will admit there have never been more than two people in my electronics firm - and if you've been into computing since the 80's you likely have used some of my products too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Sigma is a FourThirds consortium member... What their relationship is to Canon and Nikon, etc, I don't know ... they could reverse engineer the mounts or pay the licensing fees. I don't speculate.
    Canon is what the discussion is about. I believe Sigma has themselves stated that they have no such agreements with Canon. So speculation isn't really needed here.

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    I'm not telling! But I will admit there have never been more than two people in my electronics firm - and if you've been into computing since the 80's you likely have used some of my products too.

    Canon is what the discussion is about. I believe Sigma has themselves stated that they have no such agreements with Canon. So speculation isn't really needed here.
    Why the big secret if they're products anyone might have had? Anyway, it's not relevant.

    Regards your statement about speculation "... isn't really needed here", since you can only assert "I believe Sigma has themselves stated...", the whole thing is speculation. Something not speculation would be backed up with an actual statement by Sigma in an article reference, interview, etc. (This doesn't mean that I don't think it's the case, btw, it simply means that it's a speculation that is likely true.)

    The fact is that few photographers in the camera marketplace have any interest in adapting lenses. Only oddballs like the folks on this forum (myself included ... ;-) pursue such stuff. That's not much market to amortize the costs of development. A lot of people have adapted lenses to Micro-FourThirds bodies ... fewer to FourThirds bodies ... and "a lot" in these cases probably means a couple thousand at most. That's a niche market

    The pro-video marketplace is a small niche market even by comparison to that and prices are astronomical compared to still cameras because of the tiny volumes in sales. That's why it sees all these large-sensor cameras that can do video as a huge savings. A $700 adapter to use the Canon lenses already in hand? Miniscule percentages of the equipment costs. Even a 5D Mark II isn't considered expensive when it replaces a $70K video camera. Buy five and enjoy the bargain prices ... ! ;-)

    BTW, Uwe: that Panasonic looks darn cool! And for the $5000 price tag, a bargain! I'd love to play with one someday.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Judging from my purview of the on-line communities in combination with knowing the sales volume of two adapter venders on the auction sites I would guess that well over 50,000 M4/3 USA users have adapted legacy glass at one time or another. I would put the number actually at two or three times that myself but I'll stick with 50k just to be safe. And that's ONLY the USA users/customers (actually N. America but Canadians never count. ).

    Apparently there are a lot of oddballs who own M4/3 cameras.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    And my CD walkman is even MORE advanced! Ooops... it costs $50.

    If they're really charging $700 for it I bet they sell less than 50 a year and then only for the first year or two.
    while I love this little creature and would likely buy one at $200 I know it'll be more. How many walkmans did Sony make? how many years did development feed into the cycle to get that?

    its one thing to have the "AF" indicator chips to fake a lens being present, but its quite another to translate control signals on the fly fast

    but I hope I'm wrong and you're right

  23. #23
    Senior Member Tesselator's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Well, currently, I'm wrong. :P They state on their announcement that it will sell for $700. Now my only hope is a feature scaled version for still photographers. And there's been no talk of such a thing that I've come across.

    After all, still photogs don't need focus pulling (wired or wireless), we don't need to collimate zooms, we don't even need EXIF data. All that's really needed is iris control. AF and IS would be nice as extras but again, not really needed. So, here's to hoping! :P

  24. #24
    pyro_
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    what about using the adaptor from kipon? not as good since it has its own iris rather than using the one in the lens but still beter than nothing.

    saw info on it here: http://philipbloom.net/2010/12/17/ne...gh1-gh2-af101/

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    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBenjamin View Post
    Sorry to burst your collective bubbles but it's going to cost about $700. That's a very advanced little ring of electronics there.
    Yes, if Novoflex's and those other manual overpriced adapters are $250+, then this thing will be a lot higher. But there really is no other way (thanks Olympus, Panasonic) to get some lens types.

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    Judging from my purview of the on-line communities in combination with knowing the sales volume of two adapter venders on the auction sites I would guess that well over 50,000 M4/3 USA users have adapted legacy glass at one time or another. I would put the number actually at two or three times that myself but I'll stick with 50k just to be safe. And that's ONLY the USA users/customers (actually N. America but Canadians never count.).

    Apparently there are a lot of oddballs who own M4/3 cameras.
    In your imagination, I'm sure there are. Show any legitimate proof of the numbers and I'll give your speculation something more than a laugh.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Show any legitimate proof of the numbers and I'll give your speculation something more than a laugh.
    but most days I can use a good laugh ;-)

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    but most days I can use a good laugh ;-)
    :-)
    Here's another one:
    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheVi...t-serious.html

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
    Judging from my purview of the on-line communities in combination with knowing the sales volume of two adapter venders on the auction sites I would guess that well over 50,000 M4/3 USA users have adapted legacy glass at one time or another. I would put the number actually at two or three times that myself but I'll stick with 50k just to be safe. And that's ONLY the USA users/customers (actually N. America but Canadians never count. ).

    Apparently there are a lot of oddballs who own M4/3 cameras.
    The only thing you can safely claim is that 100% of people who've adapted lenses to m4/3 systems have adapted lenses to m4/3 systems. Looking at online communities is certainly not in any way a representative sample of the photographic population out there. Some of the most popular m4/3 communities have around 4000 members total, and of those I'd say at most 50% have used adapted lenses. I'd say that's likely the range of users who have adapted lenses on m4/3 systems. 2,000, not 50,000, or 150,000 like you claim.
    -Dragos
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    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Actually I think the market prospects for an EOS to mFT adapter would be quite good. Going by the numbers the 50 million EOS lenses (http://www.dpreview.com/news/1001/10...canon50mef.asp) is somewhat stronger in potential than the 4/3rds to micro adapter device which already exists. I see a lot of Canon users out there either contemplating or using micro cameras, so whether the device works for them or not I feel they are still likely to try it. Add to that, the utility of some EOS lenses might be quite worthwhile on their own, consider the 100-400 just for one. Thats 200-800mm EFL for $2300 with adapter.

    I think the whole field of conversions is interesting in itself. Previously looked at Contax N to EOS (I already run a Distagon 18/4 on FF), then there were EOS to Sigma SA which were only ever tackled at an amateur level, and which apparently meets 3 requirements,
    * the physicality of differences in the mount
    * the differences in voltages
    * simple re-routing of the wiring to different pinouts between bodies and lenses.

    As an item I accept that Birgers adapter is way too expensive, for it is not intrinsically all that more difficult to manufacture than say a 4/3rds to mFT adapter, the hard part is sorting out the wiring and voltages which is a research project that could take a month or so to engineer. However for those that spot the utility of such a device I guess having it confirmed as being within the art of the possible is warming. If one firm can do it, so can another and another.

    Where after all no system offers a perfect set of choices, adapters conquer a hurdle for users who may feel locked into one particular system. In the changeable world of an individual photographers growth in the challenging world of photography, having a capacity for hardware choice is no a bad thing, its a good thing.

    I'm all for it, and I say bring it on.
    Last edited by Riley; 19th January 2011 at 20:38. Reason: corrections additions

  31. #31
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    > the hard part is sorting out the wiring and voltages which is a research project that could take a month or so to engineer.

    If it would be simple we would have many choices. This adapter not only controls the aperture but also the focus motor.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  32. #32
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    > the hard part is sorting out the wiring and voltages which is a research project that could take a month or so to engineer.

    If it would be simple we would have many choices. This adapter not only controls the aperture but also the focus motor.
    and you would probably scrap a lens or two in the process. The good thing is I would expect the circumstances of one lens be true to all others, although IS might be more of a problem but you could leave it disconnected.

    Interesting to me that this comes up with micro which not only physically has the space for an adapter, is a more diversified community of users seeking an alternate path. I think if forums were less segregated there would have been more interest in this at the user level.

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    I'm not an expert, but I don't really see a big market for EF to 4/3 adapter.

    There are so many better and lighter option that can go to 4/3. Tons of legacy Photo glass, plus super Cine lenses. But if you really want to use modern AF glass why not use Zuiko-D? (12-60, 50, 7-14, 35-100mm are super hard to beat)

    And for those who have EF glass already, why not use it on your Canon body. Surely extra 400g is not going to "make it or break it".

    To me, the main attraction of 4/3 is its size, so why not stick to Leica-M, Contax-G, Zuiko-Pen, Arriflex, C-mount, etc...

  34. #34
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    >And for those who have EF glass already, why not use it on your Canon body.

    Do you see a Canon body that allows pro video like the AF100?
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    >And for those who have EF glass already, why not use it on your Canon body.

    Do you see a Canon body that allows pro video like the AF100?
    I think we're in agreement that for people who can afford the AF100, the $700 cost of the adapter is not an issue. It's more of an issue with the rest of us considering the use of this adapter on consumer m4/3 systems like the GH series. I think for that price someone would really, really want/need to have this adapter in order to spend that kind of cash on it. As Godfrey pointed out, it's not meant to be a high-volume product at this point.
    -Dragos
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  36. #36
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Personally If you had Canon and micro you would be nuts not to check out an adapter. It doesnt have to be anything like as sophisticated as an AG AF100, it might be a GH1 body to an owner of EF lenses with one of their bodies.

    Also to micro users what would be the problem checking out something like any one of the fast AF lenses like 50/1.4, 85/1.2 etc etc, Gezus after all theyve tried everything else what would be the difference here ?

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    Re: Someone finally got it right!

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    >And for those who have EF glass already, why not use it on your Canon body.

    Do you see a Canon body that allows pro video like the AF100?
    No, I don't. I was talking stills, since some people were talking about it. But if you talk pro-video (RED, AF100), I guess this adapter will be useful in limited circles.

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