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Thread: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

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    Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Apple's released a new Raw Compatibility Software Update. Mac OS X users can get it by using the Software Update panel in the System Prefs.

    This update adds RAW image compatibility for the following cameras to Aperture 3 and iPhoto '11:

    Canon EOS Rebel T3 / 1100D / Kiss X50
    Canon EOS Rebel T3i / 600D / Kiss X5
    Olympus E-5
    Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ100
    Pentax K-r
    Pentax K-5

    It also addresses processing issues for the following cameras:

    Nikon D7000
    Nikon COOLPIX P7000
    Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1
    Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2

    For more information on supported RAW formats, see http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3825
    enjoy!

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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    You beat me to it :-)

    - Raist

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    DavidVann
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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    After I installed the update, photos taken with e5 seem to convert to something less than desirable ... washed out, pinkish. At first, when loading the colors are fine, then they wash out, turn pinksh on my MAC. Anyone have this problem with the new aperture e5 raw update? Thanks!

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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidVann View Post
    After I installed the update, photos taken with e5 seem to convert to something less than desirable ... washed out, pinkish. At first, when loading the colors are fine, then they wash out, turn pinksh on my MAC. Anyone have this problem with the new aperture e5 raw update? Thanks!
    Are you importing .ORF or .DNG files? Here's what I see:

    Prior to the update, Aperture 3.1.1 would import the my E-5 .DNGs and render them correctly. It would also import the .ORF files (probably an error) and render them incorrectly ... pinkish/magenta.

    Now it imports the .ORF files and renders them correctly, but the .DNG files made from the .ORF files render with a pinkish, washed out magenta cast.

    Tweaky behavior. Aperture has never supported DNG files particularly well.

    I use Lightroom 3 for my raw processing. E-5 .ORF and .DNG files render identically. I use Aperture for its book module and other features that integrate with other Apple applications and services. I usually only import TIFF and JPEG files.

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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Are you importing .ORF or .DNG files? Here's what I see:

    Prior to the update, Aperture 3.1.1 would import the my E-5 .DNGs and render them correctly. It would also import the .ORF files (probably an error) and render them incorrectly ... pinkish/magenta.

    Now it imports the .ORF files and renders them correctly, but the .DNG files made from the .ORF files render with a pinkish, washed out magenta cast.

    Tweaky behavior. Aperture has never supported DNG files particularly well.

    I use Lightroom 3 for my raw processing. E-5 .ORF and .DNG files render identically. I use Aperture for its book module and other features that integrate with other Apple applications and services. I usually only import TIFF and JPEG files.
    This is substantially the same problem I've seen with the Pentax k-5 DNG files which were rendered correctly prior the update and are now washed out and pinkish.
    PEF files, on the contrary, which were not supported before, are now fine.
    I've been in contact with Apple and sent them sample files for their evaluation.
    Ario

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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    This is substantially the same problem I've seen with the Pentax k-5 DNG files which were rendered correctly prior the update and are now washed out and pinkish.
    PEF files, on the contrary, which were not supported before, are now fine.
    I've been in contact with Apple and sent them sample files for their evaluation.
    Good ... I did the same highlighting the E-5.

    Aperture is a darn good program for a lot of things, but its variances and sillinesses with raw formats have put me off depending upon it from day one. The UI ... well, Aperture 3 improves on Aperture and Aperture 2 with the improved full screen mode. I can work with it now. I find its window views somewhat cluttered and annoying, but the latest full screen operation is getting to the right level.

    Lightroom has been much more consistent from its beginning and its UI works better for me overall. But now that Aperture is so cheap through the App Store, it's nice to have it on the system for what it does well too.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Good ... I did the same highlighting the E-5.

    Aperture is a darn good program for a lot of things, but its variances and sillinesses with raw formats have put me off depending upon it from day one. The UI ... well, Aperture 3 improves on Aperture and Aperture 2 with the improved full screen mode. I can work with it now. I find its window views somewhat cluttered and annoying, but the latest full screen operation is getting to the right level.

    Lightroom has been much more consistent from its beginning and its UI works better for me overall. But now that Aperture is so cheap through the App Store, it's nice to have it on the system for what it does well too.
    I have Aperture3, LR 3.3 and C1Pro 6.1.

    I almost never use Aperture anymore, especially since LR3 is out.

    I stopped using C1Pro, but with the latest release 6.1.1 the RAW converter for E5 really rocks, can only recommend to everyone.

    So I find myself switching between LR3.3 and C1Pro 6.1.1 as dictated by the needs.

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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I have Aperture3, LR 3.3 and C1Pro 6.1.

    I almost never use Aperture anymore, especially since LR3 is out
    Funny that
    I have all three as well, and I almost never use LR3 since Aperture 3 is out.

    It takes all types!

    Just this guy you know

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    you do all realise that DNG is just a container... its not a format... same way that AVI and Quicktime are a container.... a way of wrapping a core set of data along with meta data that can be universally read... though not necessarily understood.

    If Aperture/OSX can't understand the wrapped RAW information it can't process it... maybe turning an E-5 ORF to DNG gave it enough clues to allow it to make a guess... but it is no different from changing some header info to fool Aperture to thinking that an E-p1 file came from an E-30

    Aperture is happy with Leica DNG because it is one of the few cameras that natively delivers a RAW file wrapped in a DNG file and therefore the application developers can write the support for it... they are not writing support for DNG.. but for the underlying RAW... which only comes in a DNG wrapper.

    I will agree that in the past Apple were slow to keep up with the pace of camera releases.. but they have got much better over the last year...but generally when they do finally support a camera it is done with skill and finnesse


    Personally I find LR interface to be a screen hogging dog... but hey I helped launch Aperture to the world... well Europe at least :-)

    K

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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    you do all realise that DNG is just a container... its not a format... same way that AVI and Quicktime are a container.... a way of wrapping a core set of data along with meta data that can be universally read... though not necessarily understood. ...
    Kevin,

    Download and read the Adobe Digital Negative File format specification, freely available from http://www.adobe.com/dng ... While DNG is designed to be a container file (similar to is predecessor: it is based on the TIFF file specification), it is not simply a "wrapper" around a native raw format. Converting a native raw file to DNG format means taking the component elements of the native raw file and re-organizing them into the correct structures as defined in the DNG specification. You can also 'wrapper' a native raw file into the DNG file as a byte stream for archiving purposes, but this is NOT what an application parsing a DNG file reads when it is processing a DNG file.

    You're also incorrect in your assessment of QuickTime files. How do I know this? I'm currently editing the official QuickTime File Format specification for Apple. It's not what you say it is at all, although it is a flexible file format that can be used as a wrapper if a software developer chooses to do it that way.

    The reason that Aperture properly supports DNG files from some cameras and not from others is purely a matter of testing and quality assurance. In order to test the raw output from a Leica M9, they had to have a DNG file from a Leica M9. They most likely never tested a Pentax K5 native or converted DNG file, or an Olympus E-5 converted DNG file. The fact that they processed E-5 .ORF file incorrectly when they shouldn't have read them at all indicates some sloppiness at the outset. Similarly, processing E-5 converted DNG files correctly when the E-5 wasn't supported and now processing them incorrectly when they ARE supported indicates serious sloppiness in their testing evaluation.

    Since Lightroom can take the identical E-5 .ORF and .DNG files, apply the same adjustments to either *even with my own, custom camera calibration*, and produce identical results, I'm certain that there is nothing wrong with the E-5 .ORF or .DNG files. It's the application processing them that is at fault.

    Aperture has persisted with an incomplete and often poor quality implementation of the DNG specification since day one. To me, having worked with, at and for Apple since 1984, it is an embarrassment to say this. But it is the truth.

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Godfrey

    thank you for the erudite response.. I will take note not to get into deep discussions on this issue in the future :-)

    but as you admit DNG and indeed Quicktime CAN just be a wrapper for an underlining format... that has always been my understanding though how that manifests in current practice is beyond my knowledge and understanding.

    You are probably better placed to answer the question to what difference it makes to have a file that is recorded directly to DNG - which i am guessing what you say happens with the Leica M8/9 and a DNG converted from a E-5 ORF ?

    My point is that if the act of creating a DNG rewrites the original RAW data then maybe thats why Aperture gets its knickers in a twist

    Maybe Apples lack of support may be politically more than engineering driven? who knows....


    K

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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    but as you admit DNG and indeed Quicktime CAN just be a wrapper for an underlining format... that has always been my understanding though how that manifests in current practice is beyond my knowledge and understanding.
    That's not precisely what I wrote. And their capabilities in this regard are quite different.

    DNG format is designed to be an extensible container, derivative of a Tagged Image File Format base design, but the DNG file format specification defines a precise structure for the original sensor data + metadata which raw native files need to be reorganized to. Because the DNG file is a container, the original raw file can also be encoded in a byte stream and added as a tagged element of the file (what I referred to as 'wrapper'ing it into the file), which the DNG Converter application knows how to extract if a user wishes to recreate the original native format raw file. This encoded native raw file is not what is read by any application parsing DNG files.

    This is completely different from the QuickTime file format, which has nothing to do with the notion of a TIFF container and has far more defined (and far far more complex) structures in it. A QuickTime file can contain a huge diversity of data types and formats. How you would wrapper, say, an MPEG-4 video into a QuickTime file is a completely different order of business from how you 'wrapper' a native original raw file into a DNG file. (Also remember that the ISO specification for MPEG-4 format was derived from the QuickTime movie format, not the other way around.)

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    .. You are probably better placed to answer the question to what difference it makes to have a file that is recorded directly to DNG - which i am guessing what you say happens with the Leica M8/9 and a DNG converted from a E-5 ORF ?
    When a camera creates a DNG file as its original file, the only thing that separates that DNG file from a DNG file converted from a native raw image file is that the camera organized the sensor data and camera metadata rather than an external application which re-organizes the elements. All the data elements are the same, the structure and identification of those data elements are defined by the publicly accessible specification.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    ... My point is that if the act of creating a DNG rewrites the original RAW data then maybe thats why Aperture gets its knickers in a twist

    Maybe Apples lack of support may be politically more than engineering driven? who knows....
    Creating a DNG file doesn't re-write the original raw data, it copies it into a well-disclosed structure. The short of this is that Aperture isn't interpreting the camera calibration table correctly with the DNG file output from the Pentax K-5 and the Olympus E-5 DNG files created by DNG Converter processing the .ORF file. Exactly why is for the Aperture engineers to determine, if they feel it's important enough, etc.

    Looked at historically ...at first, Aperture would only work with DNG files for cameras that it interpreted the native raw files for. This meant that it was using its own calibrations and decode strategy rather than that offered by the DNG specification. Then, because several important cameras were released which produced DNG original files, Aperture's capability was expanded to process any mosaic data DNG file up to DNG spec rev 1.2. This missed linear RGB encoded DNG files and missed the DNG files which relied upon DNG spec rev 1.3 to include parametric lens correction metadata, a new form of metadata that required changes to the DNG specification in order to be used properly. Now it's been updated to handle them, but some errors continue and it still can't read linear RGB encoded sensor data at all. This is not an outstanding implementation of DNG file compatibility, IMO.

    I don't doubt that there might be some political background to these issues. But that's irrelevant to me as a user.

    These sorts of inconsistencies in the way Aperture handles the processing of raw files ... never mind that we disagree on UI design ... as well as the always slow and "when we get around to it and if we think it's important enough" attitude towards supporting new camera models, are at the heart of why I have not yet considered Aperture as a serious competitor to Lightroom with regard to raw image processing.

  13. #13
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: Apple supports the Olympus E-5 (and other updates)

    Thanks for the response - think I understand now

    cheers

    K

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