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Thread: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

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    No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    To those who still think that more 4/3rds stuff is coming up, though Olympus has provided already plenty of evidence to the contrary, here's the latest solid as solid can be evidence:

    http://www.megapixel.co.il/english/archive/14631

    Specifically slide 8:



    The E-5 is a stop gap until the pro-pen comes out in a couple of years. That means 2-3 years from right now (their words). I was expecting a pro spec coming out now this year (year's end). On the other hand I would expect the pro spec pen to be quite something.

    To be honest, as long as the current lenses can be used, I wouldn't sweat if I was keeping my lenses and had (or not) an E-5. But wanted to point this out because I still see people who think that line is carrying on.

    Olympus mentioned in another interview that making the 4/3rds lenses work in micro four theirs well is one of their top priorities. As long as they honor that, I wouldn't worry about my 4/3rd lens collection.

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    The fact that it seems to take a couple of years before there's a "Pen pro", is a good reason to buy an E-5 for those who want to stay with 4/3 and m4/3. And there is no reason to believe that the E-5 will suddenly stop working when the Pen pro is available. I know many who still shoot happily with their E-1 cameras. I was recently informed that a photo that I took with my E-1 and the 11-22 will be used on the front page of a local magazine. If I didn't shoot for stock, I might be able to survive fine with an E-1 and the GH1. Actually, the GH1 does just fine for stock photography.

    Another side of this is that Olympus won't be alone going through this process. Panasonic has already dumped all 4/3 cameras, and Samsung is, as far as I know, totally electronic. Sony has chosen another route, but a similar hybrid option is still possible for Olympus, although probably with m4/3 mount and adapters for 4/3 lenses. What Canon and Nikon will do remains to be seen, but if the market goes for smaller, cheaper cameras with electronic viewfinders, like the A55 and G2, it's only a question of time before both of them will discontinue all entry level DSLRs and replace them with something fully electronic. What will happen at the pro level remains to be seen, but the pressure is on.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Not sure if this in contradiction to what I heard rom my Olympus Rep. in Austria. He told me that there will be no further 43 DSLRs as Olympus will concentrate on M43, but there will always be a Pro 43 DSLR like the E5.

    So if this Pro 43 DSLR is then the E7 and can also take M43 lenses, or is a pure 43 DSLR I could not care less. I am confident that Olympus will bring this as a high quality Pro camera and it will for sure top the E5 as the E5 topped the E3.

    I even hope they can use a Foveon chip, which would bring them a unique position in really high resolution and true colors.

    But for the moment I am perfectly happy with the E5 and lenses and for sure will produce 10000's of great images with that system over the next years.

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    once more around the merry-go-round ...

    I don't care if the E-5 is the last FourThirds SLR. It's a superb camera and I'll buy a second one eventually, if my work requires it. I bought it KNOWING that it was likely the last SLR in the line. I still use my E-1 too, and will continue using it. First to last: both superb cameras supported by the best lens line in the marketplace.

    FourThirds to Micro-FourThirds is a continuum. The FourThirds SLR lenses are superb and work perfectly on Micro-FourThirds bodies excepting for autofocus speed. And I don't give a damn about autofocus speed. The "Pen Pro" mentioned will be the successor to the E-5 and will take care of that. The current Pens are better cameras than the consumer grade models they replace in the line. When Olympus releases it, it will outperform the E-5, which is a damn high water mark in camera performance. This is progress, an advance to a better generation of cameras.

    Anyone who didn't understand this in October when the E-5 was released and the E-XXX and E-XX bodies end of life were announced is just being dense. It's a good thing ... the Pen line of bodies outperform the consumer grade FourThirds SLR bodies in all ways excepting for autofocus speed and sequence capture. That's why they kept a professional body in the line, to keep the autofocus speed and sequence capture option available until a pro grade Pen that supplants it is achieved.

    Why do you and all the other goofballs on DPR persist in trying to spread doom and gloom? in trying to pose this as a negative thing? Do you really hate Olympus that much? or are you that in love with a clumsy, 60 year old flipping mirror?

    If things continue as they are now, Olympus will be the first to market with a full suite of professional to consumer grade, completely electronic imaging system cameras and a lens line to work with them that outperforms everyone else's. They'll get there before Canon, before Nikon, before Pentax, before Sony. And they'll be better performing cameras and lenses.

    That's something to look forward to.

    I bet Nikon and Canon are trying to figure out how to spin their lack of products in this domain ... or are busily at work in secret to try to coup Olympus on this.

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    Re: once more around the merry-go-round ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    If things continue as they are now, Olympus will be the first to market with a full suite of professional to consumer grade, completely electronic imaging system cameras and a lens line to work with them that outperforms everyone else's. They'll get there before Canon, before Nikon, before Pentax, before Sony. And they'll be better performing cameras and lenses.
    Well - I quite agree - I don't think it's something to be sorry about either. I'm increasingly wondering about how Canon and Nikon can easily catch up, and it doesn't seem that Pentax are even going there. Not sure I agree about Sony - I'd rather have a Pen than a Nex anyday, but they, at least, are not sitting on their laurels - and the SLT cameras have a lot going for them too. Seems to me like Sony are taking this pretty seriously. . . . . but they're just a walkman company

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Agree -- just a WalkCam company
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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    I saw the price of the new Canon 300mm f/2.8 today. It's around $6,500. That's just about three times the cost of a Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 which has the same reach on an E-5 as the Canon lens has on a 5DII. The price of the Zuiko is probably less than most photographer has to write off in value on the Canon lens during the first 5 years of use, so even if the Zuiko should be completely obsolete in 5 years, it's still a better investment. Actually, one can easily buy the 150/2.0, the 35-100/2.0 and the 14-35/2.0 for the price of that Canon (or the corresponding Nikon or Sony lenses).

    Yes, I think that Canon and Nikon must be scratching their heads. We are entering a new era, with fully electronic cameras, cheaper and more compact, with advanced firmware that can do real-time corrections of optical data. Interestingly, Nikon has just launched the f/1.4 primes that they should have launched more than 5 years ago, each of them weighing more than a GH2 with a 20mm f/1.7. They are great lenses of course, but great for who? Those who need a 40MP D5X? Some probably have that need, but when I see what Olympus gets out of an old 12MP sensor and the tiny 50mm f/2.0, it's easy to decide that it's not me.

    Which gives me a distinct feeling that further investments in Nikon cameras and lenses might be just as much a dead end as an E-5. The difference is that with the lenses for the E-5 (and for Sony), there is already a system available that can use those lenses with an adapter. Maybe not to shoot ice-hockey or other fast paced sports, but for more or less anything that this photographer needs.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Jorgen, that is exactly my thoughts. 5 years is a very long time and for my needs the E-5 fits perfect. Why bother what will happen in 5 years ?? I even don´t know what will happen tomorrow ! So i decided to stay with Olympus, save money for glass, beer and girls

    Regards
    Klaus
    BTW: Noise was never and is no issue for me !
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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Just a thought:
    If Kyocera, Minolta and Fuji saw this coming 5-6 years ago, it makes it much easier to understand why they all pulled out of the DSLR business. The investments needed to play along simply couldn't be justified with the small production volume these companies had. Minolta (and Olympus) must have been thinking along those lines. Just look at the Minolta A1 and Olympus E-10; except for the sensor size and fixed lens, they are very similar to Panasonic G/GH series cameras.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Just a thought:
    If Kyocera, Minolta and Fuji saw this coming 5-6 years ago, it makes it much easier to understand why they all pulled out of the DSLR business. The investments needed to play along simply couldn't be justified with the small production volume these companies had. Minolta (and Olympus) must have been thinking along those lines. Just look at the Minolta A1 and Olympus E-10; except for the sensor size and fixed lens, they are very similar to Panasonic G/GH series cameras.
    And Panasonic, of course. Panasonic has taken a lead on delivery of higher-end mFT cameras with the G1/GH1/G2/GH2 bodies. Their FourThirds SLR bodies (L1, L10) were never produced in high volume, never really intended to sell in large quantities. They did them, I feel, as a training program, a way to get to know and work with FourThirds. They were both excellent quality performers. Panasonic knows exactly what it takes to make a top-notch FourThirds SLR lens fully compatible with a Micro-FourThirds body now ... ;-)

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    And Panasonic, of course. Panasonic has taken a lead on delivery of higher-end mFT cameras with the G1/GH1/G2/GH2 bodies. Their FourThirds SLR bodies (L1, L10) were never produced in high volume, never really intended to sell in large quantities. They did them, I feel, as a training program, a way to get to know and work with FourThirds. They were both excellent quality performers. Panasonic knows exactly what it takes to make a top-notch FourThirds SLR lens fully compatible with a Micro-FourThirds body now ... ;-)
    Agree, they learned their lessons from Leica Which is good!

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Just a thought:
    If Kyocera, Minolta and Fuji saw this coming 5-6 years ago

    I'd forgotten this, but I had a conversation with Olympus representative in 2002 in which he told me 'off the record' about the work Olympus was doing on 'live view' and mirrorless cameras with video. He told me then that Olympus was expecting DSLRs to go away in favor of mirrorless cameras, but it all seemed so futuristic to me - like something that might happen in 50 or 100 years!
    Roberto M.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by pikme View Post
    I'd forgotten this, but I had a conversation with Olympus representative in 2002 in which he told me 'off the record' about the work Olympus was doing on 'live view' and mirrorless cameras with video. He told me then that Olympus was expecting DSLRs to go away in favor of mirrorless cameras, but it all seemed so futuristic to me - like something that might happen in 50 or 100 years!
    Future trends. Ever thought about magnetic lenses ??? Liquid gear, focal length and focus done by electricity, magnetic fields ??? How small can such things be ? Ever thought about storage based on crystals ?? Programmed thru laser directly inside the lattice ??? Fiction ??? Are you sure ??
    Is a CMOS, CCD necessary to produce a photographic image ??? No, it is not ! But this is fiction now, and reality in 5 - 10 years....
    So Olympus is thinking far beyond the limits or just nuts driven by the market searching for arguments why things happen as they happen ???

    Okay, i don´t care no more. Taking pictures with already overaged E-5

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    Re: once more around the merry-go-round ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't care if the E-5 is the last FourThirds SLR.
    Then I am not sure why you are reacting so defensively if you don't care.

    It's a superb camera and I'll buy a second one eventually, if my work requires it. I bought it KNOWING that it was likely the last SLR in the line. I still use my E-1 too, and will continue using it. First to last: both superb cameras supported by the best lens line in the marketplace.

    FourThirds to Micro-FourThirds is a continuum. The FourThirds SLR lenses are superb and work perfectly on Micro-FourThirds bodies excepting for autofocus speed. And I don't give a damn about autofocus speed. The "Pen Pro" mentioned will be the successor to the E-5 and will take care of that. The current Pens are better cameras than the consumer grade models they replace in the line. When Olympus releases it, it will outperform the E-5, which is a damn high water mark in camera performance. This is progress, an advance to a better generation of cameras.
    Except for the obvious E-5 hyperbole that not everyone agrees with (not sure how the E-5 can be that high mark given it has a 3 year old sensor, even bested by a GH2), I actually said this. Read carefully.

    Anyone who didn't understand this in October when the E-5 was released and the E-XXX and E-XX bodies end of life were announced is just being dense.
    It's a good thing ... the Pen line of bodies outperform the consumer grade FourThirds SLR bodies in all ways excepting for autofocus speed and sequence capture. That's why they kept a professional body in the line, to keep the autofocus speed and sequence capture option available until a pro grade Pen that supplants it is achieved.
    Dense indeed, yet many, several were saying it. Right?

    Why do you and all the other goofballs on DPR persist in trying to spread doom and gloom? in trying to pose this as a negative thing? Do you really hate Olympus that much? or are you that in love with a clumsy, 60 year old flipping mirror?
    Excuse me but where exactly did I pose that as a negative? Can you point where? Are you reading what I wrote? You can shove the goofball where it doesn't shine, particularly when you hang out at DPR. Here's the part that apparently you didn't care to read:

    "On the other hand I would expect the pro spec pen to be quite something."

    - Does that sound negative to you? To me it sure doesn't.


    "To be honest, as long as the current lenses can be used, I wouldn't sweat if I was keeping my lenses and had (or not) an E-5. But wanted to point this out because I still see people who think that line is carrying on.

    Where exactly is the negative here? I am even saying, that I wouldn't worry about my collection (that I still have) of 4/3rd lenses then I add:

    "Olympus mentioned in another interview that making the 4/3rds lenses work in micro four theirs well is one of their top priorities. As long as they honor that, I wouldn't worry about my 4/3rd lens collection. "

    I even bring up that they said this themselves (like many other things, like this very thread I started), that they are working on this- on carrying on 4/3rd lenses. Where exactly is the negative in this?

    If things continue as they are now, Olympus will be the first to market with a full suite of professional to consumer grade, completely electronic imaging system cameras and a lens line to work with them that outperforms everyone else's. They'll get there before Canon, before Nikon, before Pentax, before Sony. And they'll be better performing cameras and lenses.
    Well if things continue as they are now Olympus Imaging won't exist. They have been consecutively loosing cash and /or market in the last 4 years (oh wow , oh noes! I said something negative even though it's true! Children run!). Which is why I want to see what the new Olympus President is going to do. We should see big changes soon enough.

    That's something to look forward to.

    I bet Nikon and Canon are trying to figure out how to spin their lack of products in this domain ... or are busily at work in secret to try to coup Olympus on this.
    I certainly want Olympus to succeed. But apparently some people are simply allergic to discussing facts. When people make up that the 4/3rds line will continue body wise and the E-7 is coming, I sure don't see you questioning that.

    Let's just keep this civil and stick to facts. If you don't like discussion of facts, or worse: paint "negative" where I actually even said positive things that I even partially agree with you, then take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why are you so defensive. I am not touching this with you here again.

    - Raist

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    Re: once more around the merry-go-round ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    and the SLT cameras have a lot going for them too. Seems to me like Sony are taking this pretty seriously. . . . . but they're just a walkman company
    Reichman said that a few years back one high end executive in the camera industry (apparently not quite a camera maker, maybe a lens maker or major distributor) said to him:

    "You see Canon/Nikon doing the usual- better ISO, more megapixels, etc. But watch those two over there - Panasonic and Sony. Watch them carefully, they are the future and where this is going. You just watch."

    Look around now. Panasonic has the best micro four thirds implementation overall (taking out the fantastic Olympus JPEG engine) with a semi pro GH2 that has AF speeds in the middle class pro DSLR Phase detection cameras and the best 4/3rds or micro four thirds sensor you can buy, and Sony while they have been making sensors for everyone all along, is already #3 after Canon and Nikon with a new upcoming more pro specced Nex camera also.

    And the cheapest good high resolution full frame you can buy.

    They are missing the lenses, but now that they completely open their mount you see others jumping to their platform also. 2-3 years from now well see Carl Zeiss and others too with line up for them by then.

    But you are right, they are only a walkman company :-)

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The fact that it seems to take a couple of years before there's a "Pen pro", is a good reason to buy an E-5 for those who want to stay with 4/3 and m4/3. And there is no reason to believe that the E-5 will suddenly stop working when the Pen pro is available. I know many who still shoot happily with their E-1 cameras. I was recently informed that a photo that I took with my E-1 and the 11-22 will be used on the front page of a local magazine. If I didn't shoot for stock, I might be able to survive fine with an E-1 and the GH1. Actually, the GH1 does just fine for stock photography.
    The real problem of the E-5 (for many, certainly not all) is that 3 year old sensor. Here's an idea that I would like to think shouldn't cost much cash: Release a "e-5 Mark II" in a year. Put a newer sensor on it. Keep the rest the same. Push that ISO and DR to GH2 sensor levels and that becomes a really nice refresh. The R&D spent for exploring and calibrating that sensor could certainly be shared with whatever they are doing with the Pen line at the moment.

    Keep the rest literally identical- minimal R&D, but big pay off. Address the E-5's Achilles heel and keeps the product/presence flowing.

    I dont' know how hard this is to do but I would think shouldn't be too hard.

    - Raist

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    Re: once more around the merry-go-round ...

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    ... When people make up that the 4/3rds line will continue body wise and the E-7 is coming, I sure don't see you questioning that. ...
    I don't waste my time responding to such silliness. Those people don't listen anyway.
    Guess the same for you based on your dozens and dozens of negative posts.

    bye.

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    No proof of negativity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't waste my time responding to such silliness. Those people don't listen anyway.
    Guess the same for you based on your dozens and dozens of negative posts.

    bye.
    You just jump to conclusions, when asked to point out where the negatives where you get all self righteous and dash off. I humbly suggest that next time you make false accusations you bak them up with evidence. Otherwise it's like slander and you don't look very smart.

    - raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Raist,
    You are missing a few very important points:

    - Hardly any potential E-5 customers are interested in hearing yet again that 4/3 will be discontinued, the sensor is to small/old/noisy, Olympus is losing money/going bankrupt, the E-5 focuses slowly in low light, Pentax makes a better camera body etc. We all know this now, but some of us still believe that the E-5 or some other 4/3 camera are viable options for our photography.

    - When film was the dominant medium for photography, the most important components needed to take a good photo were 1. The photographer 2. The lens 3. The film 4. The camera. This is still true. Some of us believe that Olympus makes some of the best lenses available for photography, only equaled by the likes of Leica an Zeiss. When it comes to zoom lenses, this is certainly true. No sensor technology can change that fact.

    - Most photos are taken during daylight at relatively low ISO. Under those circumstances, Olympus cameras deliver files that for me requires much less post processing than what my Nikon cameras do. There may be the odd blown highlight, some shadow noise and the E-1 files lack resolution for really big enlargements, but somehow, my clients don't seem to care. When correctly exposed, even the E-1 delivered files at ISO800 that was perfectly usable for commercial purposes. Most of the time, I don't need more than that.

    - All camera systems have weaknesses, but none seem to attract as many doomsday prophets as Olympus. It has been like that since the OM-1 and possibly before. It seems to annoy those who use other camera brands that they still survive, in spite of making cameras that sometimes seem to defy the "Rules of Canikon".

    - As has been pointed out several times, Olympus, Panasonic and Sony are so far the only camera manufacturers that offer a transition between old, mechanical and new electronic camera technology. The fact that the E-5 is probably the last fully mechanical DSLR from Olympus is a natural consequence of that. Somehow, that is now played against Olympus even if it's a proof that Olympus is at the leading edge of camera technology. Canikon are the ones trailing behind, and at the moment, they seem to be surprisingly detached.

    I participate on this forum to discuss ways of improving my photography and to find what camera equipment suits my needs the best. Hearing for the umpteenth time that Olympus is not a viable option because in theory, it's dead already, doesn't contribute much. It's typical for the situation that on most 4/3 fora, here and elsewhere, the top pro Zuiko lenses are hardly ever discussed, in spite of the fact that, in most cases, they are superior to their Canikon equivalents.

    As a Nikon user the last 6 years, owning 4 different F-mount bodies at the moment, it puzzles me to observe that every time I use an Olympus or Panasonic camera, I feel more at home ergonomically and produce image files that are more usable straight from the camera than with most of my F-mount bodies (the S3 being the exception, but then we are talking about a camera that really has issues).

    So please stop telling me that 4/3 will be discontinued and that the E-5 has an old sensor. I, and most other candidates for that camera, know that already, and it doesn't affect our photos one single bit.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Everyone time out and take a deep breath here.

    I read this thread this AM and was going to comment then. The orginal post did point out the slides about what Oly was doing (these slides have been on a number of internet sites over the weekend) but all the verbiage around it was positive about keeping lens, that the pro spec pen to be something good.

    Somewhere along the way it got derailed to be a negative thread and I don't believe that was the intent. So, everyone lets cool off.

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    E5 Bested by GH2!

    Hi Raist, kindly share with us the facts that the E5 is bested by the GH2?

    cheers

    ric

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Then I am not sure why you are reacting so defensively if you don't care.

    Except for the obvious E-5 hyperbole that not everyone agrees with (not sure how the E-5 can be that high mark given it has a 3 year old sensor, even bested by a GH2), I actually said this. Read carefully.

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Everyone time out and take a deep breath here.

    I read this thread this AM and was going to comment then. The orginal post did point out the slides about what Oly was doing (these slides have been on a number of internet sites over the weekend) but all the verbiage around it was positive about keeping lens, that the pro spec pen to be something good.

    Somewhere along the way it got derailed to be a negative thread and I don't believe that was the intent. So, everyone lets cool off.
    Never mind the blood, Terry. It's all good fun

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Here is a very important quote from the Olympus presentation where the slides above were shown:

    "We see the mirrorless system as the future of digital photography. In 5-10 years reflex cameras will be a niche or will not be there at all. So we believe that PEN in the long run will also be in the professional market – but that will take maybe 2-3 years. In 2011 you will see more PEN products and more lenses (beyond what was discussed in the presentation)."

    That of course make Canikon's lack of action in this area even more interesting. Nikon and Pentax are in a particularly awkward position, since there are still lenses with a mechanical AF interface being sold.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Raist,
    You are missing a few very important points:

    - Hardly any potential E-5 customers are interested in hearing yet again that 4/3 will be discontinued, the sensor is to small/old/noisy, Olympus is losing money/going bankrupt, the E-5 focuses slowly in low light, Pentax makes a better camera body etc. We all know this now, but some of us still believe that the E-5 or some other 4/3 camera are viable options for our photography.
    I am sorry but looks like some people are from the e-mails I get asked about or thanks for putting things in perspective for some prospective buyers. I am afraid you don't speak for such set of the market.

    - When film was the dominant medium for photography, the most important components needed to take a good photo were 1. The photographer 2. The lens 3. The film 4. The camera. This is still true. Some of us believe that Olympus makes some of the best lenses available for photography, only equaled by the likes of Leica an Zeiss. When it comes to zoom lenses, this is certainly true. No sensor technology can change that fact.
    Of course the most important thing is the photographer. That's why I also like posting pictures and a link to a small ever growing portfolio! I have always said that. Pentax makes some of the best primes out there. There are other options. Zeiss makes lenses for Sony, Pentax, Canon and I believe Nikon mounts.

    - Most photos are taken during daylight at relatively low ISO. Under those circumstances, Olympus cameras deliver files that for me requires much less post processing than what my Nikon cameras do.
    Again you should speak for yourself. That's you. And you know, I have said many times that the E-5 is fantastic at low ISO. What exactly did I miss?

    There may be the odd blown highlight, some shadow noise and the E-1 files lack resolution for really big enlargements, but somehow, my clients don't seem to care. When correctly exposed, even the E-1 delivered files at ISO800 that was perfectly usable for commercial purposes. Most of the time, I don't need more than that.
    Then for your needs seems like a great match. I think I mentioned that in another thread.

    - All camera systems have weaknesses, but none seem to attract as many doomsday prophets as Olympus. It has been like that since the OM-1 and possibly before. It seems to annoy those who use other camera brands that they still survive, in spite of making cameras that sometimes seem to defy the "Rules of Canikon".
    I think all the minor brands always attract doomsday prophets. But I don't understand what is so doomsday about what I posted. If you could please help me understand how my original post is a doomsday post I would greatly appreciate it.

    - As has been pointed out several times, Olympus, Panasonic and Sony are so far the only camera manufacturers that offer a transition between old, mechanical and new electronic camera technology. The fact that the E-5 is probably the last fully mechanical DSLR from Olympus is a natural consequence of that. Somehow, that is now played against Olympus even if it's a proof that Olympus is at the leading edge of camera technology. Canikon are the ones trailing behind, and at the moment, they seem to be surprisingly detached.
    Who in this thread is playing that against Olympus? Not me certainly. Could you please point to me where I did that?

    I participate on this forum to discuss ways of improving my photography and to find what camera equipment suits my needs the best. Hearing for the umpteenth time that Olympus is not a viable option because in theory, it's dead already, doesn't contribute much. It's typical for the situation that on most 4/3 fora, here and elsewhere, the top pro Zuiko lenses are hardly ever discussed, in spite of the fact that, in most cases, they are superior to their Canikon equivalents.
    Where exactly I said Olympus is not a viable option for photography? The only thing I told you specifically- and I consider that a favor- is to make sure the 14-35 lens you seem about to buy fulfills your needs because it does have the moderate low light / low light AF issue. That shouldn't equate to a doomsday statement or the fall of Olympus. I think the lens is fantastic, I only mention that as something to watch for. If that is not an issue for you due to you do daylight shooting or do MF, great!

    As a Nikon user the last 6 years, owning 4 different F-mount bodies at the moment, it puzzles me to observe that every time I use an Olympus or Panasonic camera, I feel more at home ergonomically and produce image files that are more usable straight from the camera than with most of my F-mount bodies (the S3 being the exception, but then we are talking about a camera that really has issues).

    So please stop telling me that 4/3 will be discontinued and that the E-5 has an old sensor. I, and most other candidates for that camera, know that already, and it doesn't affect our photos one single bit.
    The only thing I was telling you is the 14-35. The mention of the old sensor is because someone mentioned the E-5 presents this super high mark in photography which you would expect a camera in that category would get the right sensor too. I am not telling you specifically anything other than the 14-35 warning- and that looks like the E-5 will be a great match for you.

    How is this translated into me making a doomsday statement about Olympus is simply something I am all ears if you can clarify.

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here is a very important quote from the Olympus presentation where the slides above were shown:

    "We see the mirrorless system as the future of digital photography. In 5-10 years reflex cameras will be a niche or will not be there at all. So we believe that PEN in the long run will also be in the professional market – but that will take maybe 2-3 years. In 2011 you will see more PEN products and more lenses (beyond what was discussed in the presentation)."

    That of course make Canikon's lack of action in this area even more interesting. Nikon and Pentax are in a particularly awkward position, since there are still lenses with a mechanical AF interface being sold.
    Of course, just because that's what Olympus says in a marketing presentation it necessarily and surely means that it is 100% correct, and therefore any other kind of camera type is completely and utterly doomed :-)

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    I just deleted one response....reread post #20

    ENOUGH!

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Of course, just because that's what Olympus says in a marketing presentation it necessarily and surely means that it is 100% correct, and therefore any other kind of camera type is completely and utterly doomed :-)

    - Raist
    If it was only Olympus, I wouldn't pay notice either, but Sony, Panasonic and Samsung are following the same direction. None of those three have long traditions in the camera industry, but within the electronics industry (even canon is less than half the size of Samsung, and Nikon is... a dwarf), which is what the camera business has become a part of, each of them are very large, and have the resources to tell the average consumer what is right and what is wrong. If it is really right or wrong isn't really important, as long as this new "truth" serves the purposes of the electronic giants and their shareholders.

    This is the challenge Canon, Nikon and Pentax are facing; fight them or join them. If I was a shareholder with Nikon, I think I know what I would vote for.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Apart from that, let's take some photos. Much more fun than wearing out keyboards

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....



    ;-)

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I saw the price of the new Canon 300mm f/2.8 today. It's around $6,500. That's just about three times the cost of a Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 which has the same reach on an E-5 as the Canon lens has on a 5DII.
    you need 300/4 on FF camera... not 300/2.8... yawn.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Interestingly, Nikon has just launched the f/1.4 primes that they should have launched more than 5 years ago, each of them weighing more than a GH2 with a 20mm f/1.7. They are great lenses of course, but great for who?
    for those who otherwise might need f/0.7 on mFT

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Yes, that's a photo

    And since we are discussing trees:

    GH1 with 7-14mm @ 8mm and f/8.0


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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    you need 300/4 on FF camera... not 300/2.8... yawn.
    Are you talking light gathering or DOF?

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Nice place you got with the arrangement with the lake. I like it. In fact, if you are nearby that place, I would go back when it's stormy/cloudy and try that in B&W. Or muted. Would be also very interesting.

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    you need 300/4 on FF camera... not 300/2.8... yawn.
    Only if the 300/4 is as sharp wide open as the Zuiko 150/2, and only if the noise level of the 5DII is as low at ISO 3200 as the E-5 at ISO 800. And if you have a Nikon, the 300/4 doesn't have VR, so you would need to up the ISO to... let's say 12,800, to compensate for the shorter shutter speed needed. And Sony doesn't have a 300/4 at all.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Nice place you got with the arrangement with the lake. I like it. In fact, if you are nearby that place, I would go back when it's stormy/cloudy and try that in B&W. Or muted. Would be also very interesting.

    - Raist
    Good idea. I will go there during the monsoon season.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    for those who otherwise might need f/0.7 on mFT
    None of those Nikkor primes have VR. All primes have IS when mounted on an Olympus m4/3 camera. That's at least two stops. If you need shallow DOF, there's always the Voigtländer 25/0.95 and 50/1.1. And all of those lenses cost the half or less of the f/1.4 Nikkors (except the 50/1.4).

    There's always a solution. Only pessimists look for limitations.

    I don't say that those Canon and Nikkor lenses are bad or obsolete. As long as I don't have to carry them or pay for them, they're just fine.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Are you talking light gathering or DOF?
    both

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Only if the 300/4 is as sharp wide open as the Zuiko 150/2, and only if the noise level of the 5DII is as low at ISO 3200 as the E-5 at ISO 800. And if you have a Nikon, the 300/4 doesn't have VR, so you would need to up the ISO to... let's say 12,800, to compensate for the shorter shutter speed needed. And Sony doesn't have a 300/4 at all.
    I will take 12mp of D3s vs your 12mp of E5... and then I might actually live w/ 300/5.6 w/ bigger DOF and yet have cleaner ISO at 3 stops higher... if the cost of the camera is an issue - old D700 will do at 2 stops higher.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    None of those Nikkor primes have VR. All primes have IS when mounted on an Olympus m4/3 camera. That's at least two stops.
    to shoot moving targets ? static targets hand held w/ such big lens ? mostly will be on a tripod so your vr point is moot

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    If you need shallow DOF, there's always the Voigtländer 25/0.95
    that will be 50/2.0 on FF... OK 50/1.8... USD $50 for MF or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    and 50/1.1.
    105/2....

    now find me analog of FF 35/1.4 in your twicely cropped realm when you need that, for any money

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    both
    Setting aside that you personally like the D3s better.

    I could shoot ISO 100 on both cameras and set the Oly to f2 and the Nikon to F4 and shoot two stops faster with the Oly. Agree?

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    I will take 12mp of D3s vs your 12mp of E5... and then I might actually live w/ 300/5.6 w/ bigger DOF and yet have cleaner ISO at 3 stops higher... if the cost of the camera is an issue - old D700 will do at 2 stops higher.
    You still have no VR, so at f/5.6 you're 5 stops higher (if IBIS on the E-5 gives at least two stops, and I would be surprised if it didn't). That's ISO 25,600 vs. 800, which would look like this:



    But even if you have steady hands and can shoot at the same shutter speed, staying only 3 stops higher, this is what you get:



    The above captures are jpegs from the cameras, since RAW from the D3s aren't available at dpr.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    to shoot moving targets ? static targets hand held w/ such big lens ? mostly will be on a tripod so your vr point is moot
    I shoot static target with a Nikkor 80-200 AF-S all the time, approximately the same weight as the Zuiko 150/2 and the same reach on a DX body.

    D80 with 80-200 AF-S @ 200mm and f/2.8



    With the E-5 and Zuiko 150/2, this could have been at ISO 100.

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Agree, they learned their lessons from Leica Which is good!
    I dont think that was ever true, IMO Leica could use a lesson from them.

    Someone in Panasonic driving from the business end is a photographer, and knows something of the right mix for a camera. This first became evident in LC1 and D2, moved on through L1 then the compacts.

    Presently they have the nicest mirrorless range on the market but I bet theyre watching X100 pretty closely

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Just to complete this before I go to bed. One of the weakest sides of the E-5 sensor is supposed to be shadow noise. Here's a comparison with the E-5 at ISO 800, the D7000 at ISO 1600 and D3s and 1DIV at ISO 3200. That should represent the nominal difference between the sensor sizes (a little bit unfair towards the Canon since it's 1.3 crop, but still).



    If we stick with the 300mm lenses, the D3s actually needs the f/2,8 to improve on the results from the E-5, and even then, I suspect that it's a close race (there's no ISO 1600 shot from the D3s available).

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    I dont think that was ever true, IMO Leica could use a lesson from them.

    Someone in Panasonic driving from the business end is a photographer, and knows something of the right mix for a camera. This first became evident in LC1 and D2, moved on through L1 then the compacts.

    Presently they have the nicest mirrorless range on the market but I bet theyre watching X100 pretty closely
    Well,

    I was referring to optical knowledge, not digital camera knowledge

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well,

    I was referring to optical knowledge, not digital camera knowledge
    I think they just plug it all into a machine now dont they , but ok point taken...

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post


    ;-)

    - Raist
    Lovely photo Ricardo - but that's really grungy bokeh . . .

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Just to complete this before I go to bed. One of the weakest sides of the E-5 sensor is supposed to be shadow noise.
    You are making the mistake of comparing JPEG engines for this. Compare the RAWS. Olympus JPEG engine is fantastic but even then in lower light real world situations, you will still get shadows lacking dr. I know this first hand btw, at least comparing to a K-5.

    But yeah, you need to see the raws. Now, the very comparison you point out from the website you point out- they have a comparison on shadow recovery on the K-5 and D7000 sensor, and it's pretty obvious just how much more recovery there is.

    What's really sad in all this is the poor E-3- the E-5 is cited to provide much more DR when it's ball park similar. The problem is that people think that highlight DR= total DR. The E-3 does much better shadows than E-5 while E-5 does better highlights, but this is because Olympus shifts the tones on the E-5 up by 1 stop coming ISO 200 by under exposing by one stop, and then developing up. Both cameras actually have similar total DR.

    I personally think it's easier to control the way the E-3 does it. In the ideal world. Olympus would give us the choice to set the tone shift as we want just like Canon, Sony and Pentax do, so we can optimize highlight vs shadows or shadows vs highlights accordingly (the scenario of a wedding shoot comes to mind: harsh daylight use highlight priority- reception at night- use shadow priority).

    Ironically the K-5 has so much total DR that even leaving it in "highlight priority" still gives you lots of shadow DR, though I still prefer the ability to control it because if you are doing low key shots or really subtle lots of shadowy tones, it's still best.

    - Raist

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    Re: No más 4/3rds after E-5....

    He clearly stated that he used jpegs because the RAWs weren't available....not a mistake.

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