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Thread: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

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    Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Has anyone tried these lenses on their Micro-FourThirds bodies? I'd be interested in how they perform on these cameras.

    I'm looking for a high-quality wide-normal to normal FoV lens that isn't bulky and is all manual. I know the Lumix G 20/1.7 is an excellent performer, and I know what I've seen of the Nokton 25/0.95 results look superb ... But I'm looking for something more compact than the f/0.95 that is all manual operation.

    Similarly, I'm also interested in the Pancake II 35/2.5 lens ...

    tanks!

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Has anyone tried these lenses on their Micro-FourThirds bodies? I'd be interested in how they perform on these cameras.

    I'm looking for a high-quality wide-normal to normal FoV lens that isn't bulky and is all manual. I know the Lumix G 20/1.7 is an excellent performer, and I know what I've seen of the Nokton 25/0.95 results look superb ... But I'm looking for something more compact than the f/0.95 that is all manual operation.

    Similarly, I'm also interested in the Pancake II 35/2.5 lens ...

    tanks!
    I have lots of images taken with an RD-1 but none with M4/3. Nice small lens with brilliant color.

    Keith

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    I have lots of images taken with an RD-1 but none with M4/3. Nice small lens with brilliant color.
    Which of the three lenses?

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Which of the three lenses?
    This one is marked Color Skopar 21mm f4 MC

    Here is an image from the RD-1


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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Thanks, that looks very nice indeed.

    An E-PL2 body with that lens and a VF-2 on it might be just the ticket. That said, it's about the same price as a Fuji X100 and two stops slower. But the E-PL2 provides lens interchangeability with the FourThirds and other lenses I have already. Hmm hmm hmmm. :-)

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    I suspect that like all optics with a fov less than 50mm you will get very poor results on the edges. I have used both my Leica 28/2.8 and 35/1.4 on my GF-1 and came to the conclusion that they offered no better results than using my Lumix 20/1.7 in terms of sharpness. You'd do better to save your money or try to find a second hand 7-14 which will produce better results, imho.

    BTW, my favourite of the CV wides is the 28/3.5 which is a fantastic lens on a rangefinder.

    LouisB

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Godfrey, I've used my 21mm CV lens on both my NEX 5 and m43 bodies, including E-PL1, and it's a very nice little lens. Some amount of magenta corners and soft edges, but overall it works well, especially for B&W work. Personally, I tend more to my 28mm f2 lens, for the additional low light capability, but then your focal length is longer.

    Like Keith, I used the 21mm on my R-D1 bodies and it was almost always mounted on one of them.

    Cheers,

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    I know Sean Reid tested the 21 and had problems with the corners on an M8 (he tested more than once copy). I sent him my copy and it was sharp edge to edge. So, there appears to be some pretty big sample deviation.

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I suspect that like all optics with a fov less than 50mm you will get very poor results on the edges. I have used both my Leica 28/2.8 and 35/1.4 on my GF-1 and came to the conclusion that they offered no better results than using my Lumix 20/1.7 in terms of sharpness. You'd do better to save your money or try to find a second hand 7-14 which will produce better results, imho.

    BTW, my favourite of the CV wides is the 28/3.5 which is a fantastic lens on a rangefinder.

    LouisB
    Thanks everyone for commenting.

    ---
    Hmm. "very poor" ?

    Well, Keith's photo looks pretty nice to me and it's taken on a digital sensor with a larger format. I suspect when constrained to the smaller FourThirds format, any corner/edge issues would be even more constrained. My Nikkor 20/3.5AI-S performed beautifully on the G1 too, as did the Nikkor 28/2AI. But they're a trifle bulky for what I'm considering.

    A 21mm is not ultra-wide on this format like the 7-14 is. I'm looking at this from the point of view of manual operation and form factor, not speed or "ultrawide" FoV. A 21/4 or 25/4 cost about the same thing as the Lumix G 20/1.7. The 20/1.7 lens was excellent most ways, but I didn't like focusing it manually and preferred the "adapted lens on Micro-FourThirds" operational dynamics overall.

    ---

    The 28 f/2 might be nice as well, although its getting a little longish and is a bit bulkier than I was thinking of. The price is still pretty good and it's less bulky than the Nokton 25/0.95..

    Lot's of stuff to think about. Of course, with all the trouble now from the earthquake, consequent reactor and tsunami catastrophes, setting aside for the moment the devastating loss of thousands of people and the human suffering involved, we might see a lot of shortages and prices rising in the near future. I'm in no hurry, but it might be worthwhile to get what I'm looking for sooner rather than later as a result.

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Hmm. "very poor" ?

    Well, Keith's photo looks pretty nice to me and it's taken on a digital sensor with a larger format. I suspect when constrained to the smaller FourThirds format, any corner/edge issues would be even more constrained. My Nikkor 20/3.5AI-S performed beautifully on the G1 too, as did the Nikkor 28/2AI. But they're a trifle bulky for what I'm considering.
    Well, that seems like a reasonable assumption. From what I can tell there are some factors beyond the size of the sensor that plays a role. I remember reading about the thickness of the cover glass on m4/3 sensors and the angle the light rays was hitting the sensor having an impact. This could explain while your SLR glass performed fine on m4/3 sensors while others report soft edges with RF type lenses.

    I did test some wider ZM lenses and saw softness and smearing at the edgeson an E-P2. It seemed to work OK with lenses 28mm or longer. I don't have any experience with the CV lenses.

    -Thomas

    PS

    This thread has some discussions of the edge/corner softness - http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...ml#post1015605
    Last edited by trisberg; 12th March 2011 at 19:25. Reason: added PS

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Godfrey

    I was unimpressed with results on my GF-1 using Leica lenses or less than 50mm fov. The edges were not just soft, they were distored and unfocussed. In fact, I was complimented in this forum for seeming to have sharp results using my much wider CV 15/4.5 on my GF-1 but in fact it was a con on my part because I cropped off the offending areas.

    I could only get decent results with wide angle lenses if I stopped down significantly and/or cropped, e.g. f16 which kind-of negates the beauty of fast Leica glass. It is acknowledged elsewhere in this forum and in threads on the internet that for reasons of physics I don't understand third party lenses of less than 50mm do not fare well on m43rds bodies. As you probably know Panasonic apply all sorts of software fixes to correct the distortion in their own lenses.

    In fact, I'll stick my neck out further and say I have been unimpressed with the samples I have seen from Panasonic's own 14/2.8 which suggests that the problem persists even with own manufacturer lenses and their software correction. All the more strange that the 7-14 yields sharp results, although its minimum apperture is f4 and frankly at 7mm it is often hard to determine what is going on at the edges!

    That's my experience, for what it is worth.

    LouisB

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ...
    I was unimpressed with results on my GF-1 using Leica lenses or less than 50mm fov. The edges were not just soft, they were distored and unfocussed. In fact, I was complimented in this forum for seeming to have sharp results using my much wider CV 15/4.5 on my GF-1 but in fact it was a con on my part because I cropped off the offending areas.

    I could only get decent results with wide angle lenses if I stopped down significantly and/or cropped, e.g. f16 which kind-of negates the beauty of fast Leica glass. It is acknowledged elsewhere in this forum and in threads on the internet that for reasons of physics I don't understand third party lenses of less than 50mm do not fare well on m43rds bodies. As you probably know Panasonic apply all sorts of software fixes to correct the distortion in their own lenses.
    ...
    Louis,

    It makes sense, although I think your comments are a little over-stated given what I see above as an example.

    Digital sensors do impose more constraint on how far off the orthogonal an incident ray trace can be before they start acting weirdly, and film-camera RF lenses are designed for shorter mount registers, shorter primary nodal point distances and stress this aspect by having more oblique incidence to the corners and edges of the frame. SLR lenses in the shorter focal lengths, by the very nature of their inverted telephoto design to fit on the mount register and clear the mirror mechanism, avoid these problems for the most part until the focal lengths become very short: the primary nodal point is drawn further from the imaging plane which naturally allows a more orthogonal angle of incidence at the sensor, even without special attention to doing so in the optics.

    My interest here is not ultimate high-speed, ultra-wide lenses, however. My interest is in a compact, modest-speed lens in the wide-normal to short-portrait-normal range (20-28mm) that will be used mostly at relatively stopped down lens opening (f/5-f/8). So much of these issues will, in practical terms, likely not be evident in the image captures. Most of my other experience with adapted lenses has been with SLR lenses, most of which have performed quite well edge to edge.

    An exception is my Cosmicar-Pentax 12.5mm f/1.4 TV lens. Here the benefits of a lens designed for a digital sensor are readily apparent: the image circle doesn't quite cover the entire FourThirds sensor format, but I can see easily that it is sharp and crisp, even wide open, right to the edge of the image circle. It should also be noted that this lens is deeper than the Panasonic 14mm as well:


    I'm looking for modest price, modest speed, satisfactory performance at a compact size in a manually operated lens. Perhaps I toss the cost and compact notions out the door and just order a Nokton 25/0.95 in the end ... ;-)

    Of course, if I go this way and I really want an ultra-performing 25mm lens, I could just stick my Summilux-D 25mm f/1.4 ASPH on the adapter and use it... !

    .. As you probably know Panasonic apply all sorts of software fixes to correct the distortion in their own lenses. ..
    Panasonic applies a very fast and mathematically simple set of rectilinear and lateral chromatic aberration corrections as a part of their lens design. It's all part of our migration to practical and useful computational photography, ya know ... ];-)

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    I'm going to agree with Louis here. All sorts of wide rangefinder lenses were tested on the m4/3 cameras and most fell short. Adding to the notion that there is an issue with sensor glass or something other than simply the angle of incidence is the fact that several lenses that do poorly on M4/3 actually perform better on the 3:2 wider aspect ratio of NEX.

    If you go back the the threads from the early days of the G1 there is well documented information about specific lenses.

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I'm going to agree with Louis here. All sorts of wide rangefinder lenses were tested on the m4/3 cameras and most fell short. Adding to the notion that there is an issue with sensor glass or something other than simply the angle of incidence is the fact that several lenses that do poorly on M4/3 actually perform better on the 3:2 wider aspect ratio of NEX.

    If you go back the the threads from the early days of the G1 there is well documented information about specific lenses.
    Y'all are just convincing me to go with the Fuji X100 n say the heck with the E-PL2 ... Or just buy nothing, donate the money to the Japan relief fund and stick with what I have. After all, I really don't need another camera.

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    No, I've never touched the X100 to push someone in that direction. An E-PL2 + viewfinder + lens is probably about $100 less expensive and who knows how long it will take you to even get an X100. What is clear is that there are very few if any small rangefinder lenses at a focal length you are looking for that are going to get the job done.

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    No, I've never touched the X100 to push someone in that direction. An E-PL2 + viewfinder + lens is probably about $100 less expensive and who knows how long it will take you to even get an X100. What is clear is that there are very few if any small rangefinder lenses at a focal length you are looking for that are going to get the job done.
    lol ...

    Not being so serious about it, Terry. It's a thought exercise for the moment.

    Frankly, what I've seen from the CV 21/4, 25/4 and 28/2 actually looks ok for my purposes. Yes, I looked at all the older posts about it here. I also went to several flickr.com groups and a few other resources and looked at them.

    But whether I should wait to get my hands on an X100 instead, wait until I can find an R-D1 or M8 at the right price ... it's all a toss up at the moment. I know I'd like an M9 too but that's a bit more dosh than i think even my fantasies can handle, for my purposes.

    I really am quite happy with the E-5. And my ancient E-1. ;-) :-) They make picking something else for the limited use I have in mind very low priority.

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Godfrey

    Thanks for the explanation.

    I decided to go out again today with my GH-2 using my Leica 28/2.8 ASPH (the modern, smaller version) and retest my previous experience. I could post the images here if you really want but suffice it to say, stopped down to f8 I could still see tangible smearing of focus around the edges of my pictures. Almost like the old days when while the Polaroid instant shot was fixing you could smear the image with your fingers. The smearing is not so bad but if you know it is there it is going to needle you.

    If you really want to see and example I'll send it to you. I was again disappointed because I really had hoped that perhaps I was too hard on my wide angle lenses when I tested them before on the GF-1.

    The positive thing about the experience was using the GH-2. That camera is just a beauty. I just love the viewfiender and the speed at which it takes pictures. The multiple shot mode is nothing short of awesome. From now on, though, I'll stick to my 20/1.7 or the 7-14.

    m43rds can only improve from here (I hope). There are still some issues with noise even at iso160 (although this can be coped with very well in LR3) but as the sensors seem to improve with each release I am sure the GH-3 or whatever will be another quantum improvement.

    I reckon you'll get a more versatile camera if you wait and spend your money on a GH-2 rather than a X100.

    LouisB

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    Re: Color Skopar 21/4P, Snapshot Skopar 25/4P ?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ...
    If you really want to see an example I'll send it to you. ...

    The positive thing about the experience was using the GH-2. That camera is just a beauty. ... m43rds can only improve from here (I hope). ...

    I reckon you'll get a more versatile camera if you wait and spend your money on a GH-2 rather than a X100.

    I'd like to see an example or two. You can drop 'em to me via https://public.me.com/ramarren
    I've put a folder there for you to drop them into. Thanks!

    The G1 is/was a delightful camera. I'm sure the GH2 is an improvement. I fully expect that when Olympus releases their next pro-grade body, it will be all electronic and be a professional quality camera. They're good at that.

    My purpose in considering this stuff right now is to find that right compact adjunct to my DSLR system for certain uses. The G1 and GH2 are a bit too close in overall size ... I'll just carry the E-5 (which I truly love working with!), so the X100 or E-PL2 are what I'm currently considering.

    Of course, if the big windfall happens and I buy an M9 ... :-)

    thanks again!
    G

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