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Using flash above synch speed on G-series

  • Thread starter gardenersassistant
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Tesselator

New member
worthwhile reading:

http://webs.lanset.com/rcochran/flash/hss.html

and I thought my memory served me well from my recollection of OM brochures (when I had an OM-1 and wished for a 4ti

In 1986, the Olympus OM-4T (Japan) introduced a system that could synchronize a specially dedicated accessory Olympus F280 Full Synchro electronic flash to pulse its light at a 20 kilohertz rate for up to 40 ms, to illuminate its horizontal FP shutter's slit as it crossed the entire film gate – in effect, simulating long-burn FP flashbulbs – allowing flash exposure at shutter speeds as fast as 1/2000 sec.
Yup, Olympus had lots of firsts. That's basically how FP still works today too. With M4/3 sensors that's not really needed tho. AFAIK all M4/3 sensors have both a mechanical FP shutter and an electronic shutter. Although the first I noticed it being used besides for video, was in the GH2's new 40 FPS burst mode of full sized stills.



thanks mate, I'm showing this to my wife ... I am so off the hook for having too many lenses ;-)

ps nice equatorial mount too BTW
What, you're not past the 100 mark yet? Hurry up man! :D

Hhehe, thanks for the kind words too.
 
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mark1958

Member
The metz 50 works pretty well with my GH2 and i can easily go to HSS mode for shorter shutter times. I use a bounce diffuser on it all the time.
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
The metz 50 works pretty well with my GH2 and i can easily go to HSS mode for shorter shutter times. I use a bounce diffuser on it all the time.
I have the Metz 58 AF-2 in mind, so this is reassuring. Thanks.

Am I right in thinking that you have to manually change the flash to HSS mode rather than the camera automatically switching the flash to HSS mode above the sync speed?
 

mark1958

Member
In the case of the metz 50... yes that is correct. I have a Metz 54 and adapter for the Panasonic but it will not do HSS.

I have the Metz 58 AF-2 in mind, so this is reassuring. Thanks.

Am I right in thinking that you have to manually change the flash to HSS mode rather than the camera automatically switching the flash to HSS mode above the sync speed?
 

photoSmart42

New member
Given my particular working methods (long story) I'm not sure how practical it would be for my macro work, which is all done "in the wild".
You can do just fine with 1/160 and a manual flash for field macro work if that's your main purpose. I do it all the time. I use a Nikon SB-80DX, and I manually set the power anywhere from 1/4 to 1/1 depending on the surrounding lighting. I also use various diffusers, which is critical for macro work. Sure I'd love to have something like 1/250, but to get that and keep the very useful articulating LCD I'd have to shell out $1700 for an E-5.
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
You can do just fine with 1/160 and a manual flash for field macro work if that's your main purpose. I do it all the time. I use a Nikon SB-80DX, and I manually set the power anywhere from 1/4 to 1/1 depending on the surrounding lighting. I also use various diffusers, which is critical for macro work. Sure I'd love to have something like 1/250, but to get that and keep the very useful articulating LCD I'd have to shell out $1700 for an E-5.
I may have misunderstood (in which case I'm happily open to correction), but ...

It is the issue of whether HSS/FP flash is available that is in my mind here, rather than whether I can use manual flash or not. With my current camera in Manual mode I do manually set the flash power of the external flash unit (because auto-TTL flash exposure won't work with my camera in Manual mode - it does work in Av mode). I use reflectors or diffusers, and use ordinary flash mode below sync speed and HSS/FP mode above sync speed. The amount of manually set flash that I use varies between the minimum available of 1/64 up to the maximum of 1/1.

I am thinking of two rather distinct uses of flash. One is where light levels are too low to be able to use available light successfully (I strongly prefer available light, and often work with extremely high failure rates because of this). In such cases flash becomes my main light source and as described above I use manually set power when the camera is in Manual mode, and auto-TTL flash exposure when using Av mode.

The other use is in bright light, where I want to use fill flash to even up the lighting, for example to illuminate dark shadows such as the underside of insects or out-of-the-sun petals/petal surfaces on an otherwise sun-illuminated flower. Now, the sync speed on my camera is 1/250, the minimum ISO is 80 and the minimum aperture is f/8 (it is a small sensor bridge camera). Even with the minimum ISO and minimum aperture, on a sunny day the shutter speed may need to be above 1/250 to avoid blown highlights. This is the circumstance for which I am thinking of needing HSS/FP flash.

I haven't thought this through, but it struck me recently that perhaps getting a set of ND filters might be a way round this, so as to bring the "baseline" exposure (to avoid blown highlights) within the sync speed. Given the use of an ND filter, would more flash power be needed to obtain the light balancing? Can't get my head around that. But in any case I wouldn't have the big power drop from using HSS, which would balance things out. Don't know which of those two effects might be the stronger. As HSS/FP flash power is (I believe) proportional to shutter speed I suppose the answer to that might vary with shutter speed.
 

photoSmart42

New member
You can work around all the situations you described above with fill flash and diffusers, or even a shade if you the sun is really too bright. The diffuser I use acts both as a diffuser and as shade, so I don't worry about bright sunlight. To me it sounds like you're over-thinking/over-complicating the equation with the HSS/FP flash for what you're trying to do. I'd use HSS/FP for stopping motion in a controlled environment personally, not for field macro using available lighting.

Like you said, if you run into a situation where you really can't control the brightness of the environment with anything you can bring with you in the field, then I suppose you'll want to think about an ND filter set. That's a lot easier than fiddling with HSS/FP flash for this situation.
 

photoSmart42

New member
I'm looking into cheap ones right now. I need to compile a list of model numbers and maker names and then do searches for FP capabilities. I have a few already for the searching but I want an exhaustive list so I'm still looking up models that say they at leat have TTL and are Panasonic M4/3 compatible. Here's what I have so far:

Vivitar 285HV $100
How is the 285HV FP compatible? While it'll fire, AFAIK you can't put the camera in FP mode with the 285HV. I'd love to know!
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
You can work around all the situations you described above with fill flash and diffusers, or even a shade if you the sun is really too bright. The diffuser I use acts both as a diffuser and as shade, so I don't worry about bright sunlight. To me it sounds like you're over-thinking/over-complicating the equation with the HSS/FP flash for what you're trying to do. I'd use HSS/FP for stopping motion in a controlled environment personally, not for field macro using available lighting.

Like you said, if you run into a situation where you really can't control the brightness of the environment with anything you can bring with you in the field, then I suppose you'll want to think about an ND filter set. That's a lot easier than fiddling with HSS/FP flash for this situation.
Thanks for the input. I need to experiment some more. And I really must get round to buying a ND set and also a second plamp so I have more flexibility, e.g. to use one card as a reflector (of sunlight or flash), and one as a shade. I've been meaning to do that for a while.
 

pellicle

New member
The other use is in bright light, where I want to use fill flash to even up the lighting, for example to illuminate dark shadows such as the underside of insects or out-of-the-sun petals/petal surfaces on an otherwise sun-illuminated flower. Now, the sync speed on my camera is 1/250, the minimum ISO is 80 and the minimum aperture is f/8 (it is a small sensor bridge camera). Even with the minimum ISO and minimum aperture, on a sunny day the shutter speed may need to be above 1/250 to avoid blown highlights. This is the circumstance for which I am thinking of needing HSS/FP flash.
exactly a problem I have faced. My best recent example was a wedding I did for a while ago. If I wanted to use more shallow DoF and not be 50 meters away with a telephoto I just couldn't balance flash required shutters with DoF preferred apertures.

Just a quick glance at the "sunny 16 rule" would reveal that l with 100ISO I"m needing around f11 or perhaps f8.

This is where I find 4/3 a limiting tool, as the DoF of f8 is so deep that I really DO need that telephoto to get anything other than shots that look like I took them with a compact ... (which I guess I am really)

I ended up using 35mm negative and lenses like 100mm f2.8 and 200 f4, just so that I could use shallow apertures. I picked 100ISO (which looks quite good in neg, perhaps equal to my G1 at 400) and even bring up the exposure a stop or so (getting more shadow) without worrying much about highlight blowouts.

As a benefit I got to use faster shutters making hand held less tricky.

I haven't thought this through, but it struck me recently that perhaps getting a set of ND filters might be a way round this, so as to bring the
which of course impacts on your flash and you find yourself needing a higher GN flash for the same job ... "giveth with the right and taketh away with the left"

"baseline" exposure (to avoid blown highlights) within the sync speed. Given the use of an ND filter, would more flash power be needed to obtain the light balancing?
yes ...

Can't get my head around that. But in any case I wouldn't have the big power drop from using HSS, which would balance things out. Don't know which of those two effects might be the stronger. As HSS/FP flash power is (I believe) proportional to shutter speed I suppose the answer to that might vary with shutter speed.
well Guide Number is (as you may recall) dependent on F stop chosen, distance (of course) and field of view. I add this last one as people often forget this thinking that flashes that zoom (as many do now) quote their GN at the 100mm end of things and work by focusing the light. The do not give 40GN at 50mm or 28mm. I seem to recall that the old Oly F280 covered 28mm angle of view, so with a tele adaptor would actually be much more powerful.

this however doesn't address the other issues.

Fundamentally (due to the short duration of the flash) the only mitigating factor in exposure (in the balance with ambient light) is the aperture and any ND filters, shutter being longer does not effect exposure (and shorter just cuts off part of the focal plane.

Essentially its why I think there remains a need for the simple 6x6 Hassleblad with its 500th of a sec flash sync. You get more shallow DoF, because of the larger format and be able to balance outdoor lighting (like weddings) while giving pleasing renderings. Where a focal plane shutter may need f11@160th the iris shutters allow you to set something like f5.6@500th which on the 6x6 is a nice rendering.

:)
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
exactly a problem I have faced.....
Interesting solution!

...which of course impacts on your flash and you find yourself needing a higher GN flash for the same job ... "giveth with the right and taketh away with the left"
That's a pity, because in some circumstances my flash (Canon 430EXII) is already only just powerful enough, given what HSS + reflection/diffusion can reduce it to. Given that I'm thinking of switching brand of camera, a new Canon (or compatible) flash is not a runner just now. Makes the Metz 58 AF-2 look like it wouldn't be overkill if/when I move to Panasonic.

Essentially its why I think there remains a need for the simple 6x6 Hassleblad with its 500th of a sec flash sync. You get more shallow DoF, because of the larger format and be able to balance outdoor lighting (like weddings) while giving pleasing renderings. Where a focal plane shutter may need f11@160th the iris shutters allow you to set something like f5.6@500th which on the 6x6 is a nice rendering
Very interesting. This touches on another option (at the opposite end of the spectrum) that I have been pondering - but I may need to run for cover after explaining what it is.:D

I keep wondering about the FZ100, and its possible replacement with a similar camera using the new 1/2.33 chip that Panasonic have scheduled for mass production in December.

Now I know, I know, FZ100, terrible IQ, smeary, noise in a clear blue sky at ISO 100 etc etc. And yet, for my purposes, it seems to have some distinct advantages, one of which is an iris shutter - flash sync at all speeds.

Another advantage is that its adaptor would hold my achromats at a constant distance from the subject as I zoom in and out to change the magnification/framing. That was how it was with my previous camera, a Canon S3, and it is definitely advantageous given the sensitivity of achromats to the distance to the subject.

10 fps would increase the options for stacking for noise reduction/detail enhancement/dof extension.

And RAW, which I don't have currently, would be nice too.

Oh, and a 1.7x teleconverter would take the reach out to 1020 mm in 35mm equivalent terms. I might even capture some birds.

And it would be much less expensive than a G3 rig would be (especially if I went the whole hog with the G3 and included the 45mm and 100-300mm). I am not kind to equipment, and clumsy to boot. I drop things. Potential replacement costs do figure in my equation.

The G3 would obviously give me options of deeper cropping, but then again I tend to compose in-camera quite close to the final result, so that isn't as much of an advantage for me as you might think.

But back to the IQ issue. Surely this rules out a small sensor camera? Well, I'm used to handling poor quality originals, for example when using ISO 200 on the SX10is in poor-ish light, which I do quite often. But careful PP is giving me results that print to my satisfaction at A4, and the local wildlife trust happily used a (ISO 100, good light) 16" x 12" print along with A4's at a recent event, and there was apparently good feedback about the pictures.

There is obviously a huge difference in native IQ terms between the G3 and the FZ100, even if/when that is replaced with a better sensor. But, it's a horses for courses thing, and a complicated set of factors to juggle. Just now, as for many months, indecision rules.:)

(Oh dear, I hope I haven't started a religious war with this.:()
 

pellicle

New member
Hi

Interesting solution!
sort of retro wasn't it :)

It enabled me to get stuff like this:


which contained enlargement detail like this:

The visible grain softened in printing, but left plenty of detail in the whites and shallow DoF (needed to obscure background) while not needing to stand back too far.

That's a pity, because in some circumstances my flash (Canon 430EXII) is already only just powerful enough, given what HSS + reflection/diffusion can reduce it to. Given that I'm thinking of switching brand of camera, a new Canon (or compatible) flash is not a runner just now. Makes the Metz 58 AF-2 look like it wouldn't be overkill if/when I move to Panasonic.
used to use Canon, moved to Metz some time ago. Don't discount "Auto Flash" which is non TTL. The 45 is 45 at 28mm, and makes for a fantastic bounce flash if you have white ceilings.

Now I know, I know, FZ100, terrible IQ, smeary, noise in a clear blue sky at ISO 100 etc etc. And yet, for my purposes, it seems to have some distinct advantages, one of which is an iris shutter - flash sync at all speeds.
gear is equipment, its intended to enable you to produce your creative vision, if a bit of gear does that better than another bit of gear then use it because its better. Noone would argue that a chainsaw cuts wood faster and more powerfully than a coping saw ... but I still use both for different reasons.

I wouldn't use a coping saw for this : http://youtu.be/mU412nELtdI

:)
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
The visible grain softened in printing, but left plenty of detail in the whites and shallow DoF (needed to obscure background) while not needing to stand back too far.
Good result.

Don't discount "Auto Flash" which is non TTL.
Having been concentrating on HSS/FP, I hadn't really noticed Auto Flash. I just looked again at the Metz 58 AF-2 manual. This is new to me, and I see what you mean. That would definitely be another tool in the kitbag.

gear is equipment, its intended to enable you to produce your creative vision, if a bit of gear does that better than another bit of gear then use it because its better.
True, and reassuring to hear you say that. I am mindful though that there are some folk for whom "good" and "better" seem to be absolute terms (as in an unqualified "Large sensor good, small sensor rubbish"), rather than being relative to a particular set of aims/objectives/constraints/preferences etc.

Noone would argue that a chainsaw cuts wood faster and more powerfully than a coping saw ... but I still use both for different reasons.

I wouldn't use a coping saw for this : http://youtu.be/mU412nELtdI

:)
LOL! Quite so.
 

pellicle

New member
Good result.
thanks :)

Having been concentrating on HSS/FP, I hadn't really noticed Auto Flash. I just looked again at the Metz 58 AF-2 manual. This is new to me, and I see what you mean. That would definitely be another tool in the kitbag.
definately. You can use TTL wireless adaptors to trigger them from your camera (cheap as chips these days for a basic one) and leave one setup where you want.

try reading this for an example of how well this works on even a digicam like my coolpix 5000 ...

none of this however gets you away from the issues associated with the shutter limits of focal plane shutters or the use of ND filters to bring ambient light levels down.

but it is handy on many occasions.
 
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