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Using flash above synch speed on G-series

  • Thread starter gardenersassistant
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gardenersassistant

Guest
I am thinking of getting a G3.

I sometimes use diffused or reflected flash for macros. When this is for fill-in purposes the shutter speed may well be above 1/160 sec, which is I believe the G-series flash sync speed.

Above 1/160 sec, in Av mode, with a Panasonic or compatible flash, will the system automatically switch to HSS mode and (if it has sufficient power) still provide the right (TTL-metered) flash output for the scene?

Above 1/160 sec, in Manual mode, with a Panasonic or compatible flash, does the system automatically switch to HSS mode? If so, does it (if it has sufficient power) adjust the flash output to produce the same amount of light as it was set for in non-HSS mode? (Why I ask is that when my Canon camera and flash are both in Manual mode, when the shutter speed goes beyond the sync speed the flash switches to HSS mode, but the output drops considerably and I have to manually adjust the output to get it back (if the flash has enough power) to the non-HSS output level.)
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I am thinking of getting a G3.

I sometimes use diffused or reflected flash for macros. When this is for fill-in purposes the shutter speed may well be above 1/160 sec, which is I believe the G-series flash sync speed. ...
With an appropriate* Olympus- or Panasonic-dedicated flash unit, you can operate in "FP" mode using either manual power settings or with auto-TTL metering in order to achieve the extended range of flash sync exposure times. "HSS" = "FP" in Olympus and Panasonic flash nomenclature.

You have to set the flash to the appropriate mode, the camera does not automatically switch the flash unit's operating mode. Once set in FP operating mode, either manual or automatic, you have to observe the FP mode power outputs rather than the standard mode power outputs throughout the range of use.

* Not all Olympus and Panasonic dedicated flash units support all FP operational modes. The Olympus FL36(R) and FL50(R) do, as do the Panasonic siblings (FL360 and FL500); some of the dedicated Metz units do too. Check per the flash unit you wish to use.
 
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Tesselator

New member
This is all true and everything but it implies you have to spend the big bucks for some pretty crappy flash units. The FL500 for example is like $500 for a $150 flash unit spec-wise. Yeah, Panasonic again - draining the blood out of us while not delivering the goods! Heh!

Aren't there remotes that can trigger a flash (or groups of flashes) and the shutter at the same time? I thought there were anyway and for like $50 or so. That way the camera will not even know there is a flash involved at all. Of course it means you have have to set up everything manually - but it also means you can use 3 or 4 $10 used flashes in fill mode at any shutter speed you like.

Anyone know for sure?

If this doesn't work WTH, we can always go back to this:



Or even improvise a little:

 

ggibson

Well-known member
Isn't there a problem with the flash only exposing part of the frame when going above the sync speed? Do you just work around that, or am I missing something?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Isn't there a problem with the flash only exposing part of the frame when going above the sync speed? Do you just work around that, or am I missing something?
This is the point of the 'high-speed-sync' mode available with a camera-dedicated flash unit: the burn-time of the flash tube is extended to cover the focal plane travel time for the appropriately matched camera shutters, thereby working around the X-sync limitations of focal plane shutters. This long burn time is the behavior of "FP" (focal plane) flash bulbs in the past, which is why Olympus (and Panasonic) chose to name this mode "FP" on their flash units.

Olympus and Panasonic flash units ... the FL36/FL50 models and siblings from Panasonic in particular ... are very well made, high quality units. Prices seem to vary a bit region to region, sometimes the Oly price is lower than the Pana price and vice versa. Some of the Metz units with Olympus/Panasonic dedication also offer the feature at a lower price per GN and are also good units, but overall I've been disappointed with the Metz flash unit controls: they seem excessively fiddly.

There are other vendors offering cheaper flash units that support the Olympus/Panasonic dedication, but not all of them include controls that allow full exploitation of the FP mode. Cheap flash units are like other piece of camera equipment: you get what you pay for.
 

Tesselator

New member
Well, maybe... but all you get is automation. There is no difference (in light quality or ignition) between a $10 used flash rated at GN 40 and a $500 one with the same rating. In fact some of the used $10 flashes are by far superior for manual work. There's a good quote at the page I yanked those images from:


"I guess that’s why so much flash units are for sale on eBay, forums and websites. You wind up with hundreds of other peoples failed flash ideas and the truth is most any light can work if you understand the mechanics of lighting."​
- http://www.aljacobs.com/flash-units-all/tons_more_coming.html
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
EDIT: Crossed messages! Thanks for all the input.

This is all true and everything but it implies you have to spend the big bucks for some pretty crappy flash units. The FL500 for example is like $500 for a $150 flash unit spec-wise. Yeah, Panasonic again - draining the blood out of us while not delivering the goods! Heh!
I was thinking of the Metz AF-2, which is about 3/4 the price of an FL500, but still expensive though, especially as I have a perfectly good Canon 430exii which was not cheap! The thought has struck me that (a) I don't use flash all that often, as I much prefer to use available light for the close-ups which are most of what I do, and (b) it turns out that I am getting quite used to setting the flash manually as the 430exii doesn't work in TTL mode on my SX10is with the camera in Manual mode, which is what I almost always use.

So perhaps I could just use the 430exii on a G3, with the camera in Manual mode, and the flash in its own manual mode. Being in (camera) Manual mode I would know to switch (the flash) to HSS/FP mode beyond 1/160 sec. I wonder if the camera and flash would communicate enough - exposure start and exposure finish presumably - for even manual HSS/FP to work?

I would lose TTL flash in Av mode though. I don't use that very often, but when I do ..... Grrr, it's all so complicated and difficult to get my head around with so many pluses and minuses for each option.

Aren't there remotes that can trigger a flash (or groups of flashes) and the shutter at the same time? I thought there were anyway and for like $50 or so. That way the camera will not even know there is a flash involved at all. Of course it means you have have to set up everything manually - but it also means you can use 3 or 4 $10 used flashes in fill mode at any shutter speed you like.

Anyone know for sure?
Given my particular working methods (long story) I'm not sure how practical it would be for my macro work, which is all done "in the wild". Still, it's an interesting alternative that I hadn't thought of. Would this work faster than 1/160 sec though? I thought the problem there was that at shutter speeds faster than a camera's sync speed the shutter is never fully open, the second curtain starting out before the first curtain finishes - and so with the flash being almost instantaneous, not all of the image gets flash illumination. And hence FP/HSS mode, where the flash is doing "microbursts" all the while the shutter is open.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
@ gardenersassistant ::

- Canon EX400 series flash units are designed to work with controls on the Canon bodies and do not offer any automation or control settings when used with non-Canon bodies. When used on anything else, you'll get nothing but a full-output pop at the time the shutter signals the flash and will have no high-speed-sync mode. I once had the EX420 when I worked with Canon equipment and sold it when I found it unreliable and difficult to use for anything that wasn't Canon.

- Inexpensive flash units abound. The quality differences aren't so much on the quality or amount of the light they produce but on their build quality, durability, and how controllable they are. Ones with cheap components don't last in heavy use, ones with good components do. Inexpensive ones cut corners on features too.

The Metz dedicated-series flash units work pretty well for what they offer (pick the right one and you get FP mode in both auto TTL and manual operation, etc) and are well built. The only issues I've seen are the often fiddly control interface (if you can work with it, who cares? :) and the fact that the reflectors aren't shaped for FourThirds format (their reflectors are shaped for 2:3 format cameras, so while they have a higher guide number for price over the Olympus/Panasonic models, they effectively lose some of that power through the wrong coverage pattern, although if you're using them with diffusers and bounce equipment this is mostly irrelevant).

If your need is for relatively light duty use, almost anything will suffice as long as it supports the relevant FP mode for Auto TTL and manual operation. And anything will suffice if you don't care about FP mode, but it seemed that was one of your primary interests.

I use less expensive, simpler flash units often as I most often use manual flash setups, but I use Olympus FL-36 and FL-50 units whenever I need to do anything that needs FP mode operation. They're very good flash units and are built to last.
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
Thanks again Godfrey. Very helpful info.

Canon EX400 series flash units are designed to work with controls on the Canon bodies and do not offer any automation or control settings when used with non-Canon bodies. When used on anything else, you'll get nothing but a full-output pop at the time the shutter signals the flash and will have no high-speed-sync mode.
No high-speed sync - no good then for what I want. Oh well.

The Metz dedicated-series flash units work pretty well for what they offer (pick the right one and you get FP mode in both auto TTL and manual operation, etc) and are well built. The only issues I've seen are the often fiddly control interface (if you can work with it, who cares? :) and the fact that the reflectors aren't shaped for FourThirds format (their reflectors are shaped for 2:3 format cameras, so while they have a higher guide number for price over the Olympus/Panasonic models, they effectively lose some of that power through the wrong coverage pattern, although if you're using them with diffusers and bounce equipment this is mostly irrelevant).
Yes, diffusing or bounce almost all the time.

And anything will suffice if you don't care about FP mode, but it seemed that was one of your primary interests.
Indeed so. Essential if I go down the Four Thirds route.

I use less expensive, simpler flash units often as I most often use manual flash setups, but I use Olympus FL-36 and FL-50 units whenever I need to do anything that needs FP mode operation. They're very good flash units and are built to last.
That's useful to know. Thanks.
 

Tesselator

New member
EDIT: Looks like Godfrey answered most of it while I was messing about. :) Here's what I wrote anyway tho:


EDIT: Crossed messages! Thanks for all the input.

I was thinking of the Metz AF-2, which is about 3/4 the price of an FL500, but still expensive though, especially as I have a perfectly good Canon 430exii which was not cheap! The thought has struck me that (a) I don't use flash all that often, as I much prefer to use available light for the close-ups which are most of what I do, and (b) it turns out that I am getting quite used to setting the flash manually as the 430exii doesn't work in TTL mode on my SX10is with the camera in Manual mode, which is what I almost always use.

So perhaps I could just use the 430exii on a G3, with the camera in Manual mode, and the flash in its own manual mode. Being in (camera) Manual mode I would know to switch (the flash) to HSS/FP mode beyond 1/160 sec. I wonder if the camera and flash would communicate enough - exposure start and exposure finish presumably - for even manual HSS/FP to work?
I dunno specifically (others might) but I guess it will fire fine. I have a buttload of National PE-3550 and PE-3057 units I got locally for $5 each (untested - but they all worked fine) and the GH1 can use them np at all. The PE-3057 has it's own fill-mode sensor that exposes beautifully (bounced or direct) if the camera is set appropriately. The trouble is with the GH1 that as soon as the camera thinks there is a strobe attached the shutter speed is limited (in all modes) to 1/160. So, assuming the the G3 is similar, if you want faster speeds than the sync limit (I think) you have to get the camera and flash to fire simultaneously without the camera knowing that a flash is being used. The only way I can think of is to buy one of those $50 Hong Kong remotes that are able to fire the shutter and also slaved (remote) flash(s).

I would lose TTL flash in Av mode though. I don't use that very often, but when I do ..... Grrr, it's all so complicated and difficult to get my head around with so many pluses and minuses for each option.
I dunno, while these particular flash guns do have a light sensor and a built-in auto mode, and are actually geared for film cameras so should be mostly too bright I can usually just shoot without too much thought or effort using the guide on the back. I shoot only manual lenses anyway so I'm not losing much without the automation. I still get plenty of aperture leeway even with that very restrictive Xs ~ 1/160s. Here's some I just took right now just for fun:


Auto: 1/30, Bounce 0º, f/11


Auto: 1/30, Bounce 45º, f/8


Auto: 1/30, Bounce 75º, f/4​


Given my particular working methods (long story) I'm not sure how practical it would be for my macro work, which is all done "in the wild". Still, it's an interesting alternative that I hadn't thought of. Would this work faster than 1/160 sec though? I thought the problem there was that at shutter speeds faster than a camera's sync speed the shutter is never fully open, the second curtain starting out before the first curtain finishes - and so with the flash being almost instantaneous, not all of the image gets flash illumination. And hence FP/HSS mode, where the flash is doing "microbursts" all the while the shutter is open.
Macro in the wild, sounds like a diffuser situation. :) Same things apply. But again if you want higher than max-sync on a Panasonic M4/3 I think yo have to trigger the flash and camera separately or pay Panasonic's lunar based prices.

Also Godfrey did a good job of explaining things I thought. Flashes can and do burn longer than "instantaneous" - up to about 1/2 a second. The problem is just telling your camera that you're not so stupid as to expect the flash and the SS to be the same and all metered for you and stuff. Most other camera manufactures allow access to the FP mode in the camera body. Panasonic, in an effort to sell more flashes I am sure, puts access to that mode in the flash itself. So either you need to fool the camera into thinking there is no flash or pay thru the nose.
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
EDIT: Looks like Godfrey answered most of it while I was messing about. :) Here's what I wrote anyway tho:
Thanks for taking the time on this. More interesting info for me to mull over. I take the point about the possibilities of less expensive flash units, but for my needs (e.g. out in the wild, diffusion and/or reflection, needing to get above 1/160, some need for auto TTL) I suspect I'm going to end up paying up to Panasonic, Olympus or Metz.
 

Tesselator

New member
I'm looking into cheap ones right now. I need to compile a list of model numbers and maker names and then do searches for FP capabilities. I have a few already for the searching but I want an exhaustive list so I'm still looking up models that say they at leat have TTL and are Panasonic M4/3 compatible. Here's what I have so far:

Nissin Speedlite Di 466 FT-W White $159

Nissin Speedlite Di 466 FT - Black $139

Vivitar DF-293 $109

Vivitar 285HV $100

Sunset "Zeikos" ZE-SB1000 $125


Interestingly enough I could buy all 5 of the above (most of which have a better spec than the Fl500) for about the same price as just one Panasonic FL500 unit... LOL!

There's the Panasonic DMW-FL360 for $220 which says it's "FP emission capable" but it's terribly low spec with no swivel, no bounce card, crappy case, and a GN of only 36 (meaning probably not powerful enough to be used with most diffusers and/or softbox products). :( And it's made by Panasonic so it's twice as much as all the others and probably doesn't have an honorable Warrantee!
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
...So, assuming the the G3 is similar, if you want faster speeds than the sync limit (I think) you have to get the camera and flash to fire simultaneously without the camera knowing that a flash is being used. The only way I can think of is to buy one of those $50 Hong Kong remotes that are able to fire the shutter and also slaved (remote) flash(s).
....
This does nothing to extend flash tube burn time.

... Flashes can and do burn longer than "instantaneous" - up to about 1/2 a second. The problem is just telling your camera that you're not so stupid as to expect the flash and the SS to be the same and all metered for you and stuff. Most other camera manufactures allow access to the FP mode in the camera body. Panasonic, in an effort to sell more flashes I am sure, puts access to that mode in the flash itself. So either you need to fool the camera into thinking there is no flash or pay thru the nose.
Modern flash units capable of variable burn time for exposure adjustment generally burn somewhere between 1/8000 and 1/150 second, about two orders of magnitude shorter burn than 1/2 second. A vertically traveling focal plane shutter crossing a 14mm gate nominally takes 8-10 milliseconds if X-sync is set to 1/160 second .. that keeps accelerative loadings on the shutter curtains down in the 8-10g range and reduces costs enormously. So 80/1000 = 8/100 = ... let's call it 1/15 second minimum burn time needed to synch the traveling slit at shutter times over X-sync ... again roughly an order of magnitude longer burn than conventional flash units can burn the tube, not counting any additional timing needs.

FP mode on dedicated flash units, whether the control switching is done in the body or in the flash, require the flash to be put into a different output mode in order to sustain a longer, lower intensity burn for the required time. And for optimized output, that burn has to be carefully synched to the actual shutter speed in use to maximize power and minimize flash unit heating (overheating will destroy the flash unit prematurely).

You can't get something for nothing. Cheap flash units not designed to permit long burn times or support the precise timing required are not useful for fast focal plane shutter synchronization. It has nothing to do with Panasonic wanting to milk every last dollar out of you ... it has to do with the technology required to do the job and how much it costs.
 

Tesselator

New member
Doesn't this have the exact same tubes in it? It can strobe a GN of about 30 for hours and hours and some have full one second burn times. Those are $10 each - new. Magic high cost technology? Gee that sounds like marketing! ;)

Yes, my "about 1/2 a second" was a slight exaggeration - but only slight. I haven't owned a whole lot of on-camera type flash units since digital cameras started out but of the 30 or 40 for film ones I have 5 or 6 of those models can burn for a very long time - I dunno maybe 1/5s. The others are tiny little pop flashes with GNs of about 10 - 20 worth about $1 each these days and I wouldn't expect them to do anything but pop. Still, they all work in HSS mode on other camera systems. 1/1000s is 1/1000s - it seems only to make sense that if a flash can burn longer than that it can be used at 1/1000 shutter speeds - unless the camera is prohibiting it in firmware like the Panasonics. And why would that be other than to sell "special magic" flash units? It looks even more obvious to me when one considers that the Panasonic units are feature stripped and a half. Half the product for twice the price, that sounds just like a monopoly-minded company to me.

So I think I've shown that the technology is dirt cheap and other systems are already doing it. How is it that Panasonic isn't if it's indeed not actually about milking us?

Additionally I ask that if indeed a flash works in HSS mode on some other camera system and it's only Panasonic's firmware which prevents the user from setting a SS higher than 1/160 when a flash is attached then why won't a remote trigger which triggers both the camera's shutter and also a flash unit (not attached to the camera) work - assuming the two trigger events are close enough?
 
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Godfrey

Well-known member
You obviously dont understand anything about focal plane shutters, flash unit technology and how it works. I'm not your tutor.
 
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gardenersassistant

Guest
I'm looking into cheap ones right now. I need to compile a list of model numbers and maker names and then do searches for FP capabilities. I have a few already for the searching but I want an exhaustive list so I'm still looking up models that say they at leat have TTL and are Panasonic M4/3 compatible. Here's what I have so far:

Nissin Speedlite Di 466 FT-W White $159

Nissin Speedlite Di 466 FT - Black $139

Vivitar DF-293 $109

Vivitar 285HV $100

Sunset "Zeikos" ZE-SB1000 $125
Thanks for the links.

The Nissin looks very interesting for the price. However, it is not FP-capable (it seems, reading the user guide and from statements on other forums).

The Vivitar site doesn't show a MFT version of the DF-293, but it does have an Olympus version. I can't find a manual for this, but the stated flash duration range of 1/500 to 1/30000 implies that it is not FP-capable (e.g. it could not cover an exposure of 1/200).

I can't find a manual for the Zeikos SB1000, but the Amazon link gives the flash duration range as 1/1000 to 1/20000, implying that it is not FP-capable.

From looking at the manual, it seems that the Vivitar 385HV is not FP-capable and does not swivel laterally, which I need for reflected flash operations.
 

pellicle

New member
worthwhile reading:

http://webs.lanset.com/rcochran/flash/hss.html

and I thought my memory served me well from my recollection of OM brochures (when I had an OM-1 and wished for a 4ti

In 1986, the Olympus OM-4T (Japan) introduced a system that could synchronize a specially dedicated accessory Olympus F280 Full Synchro electronic flash to pulse its light at a 20 kilohertz rate for up to 40 ms, to illuminate its horizontal FP shutter's slit as it crossed the entire film gate – in effect, simulating long-burn FP flashbulbs – allowing flash exposure at shutter speeds as fast as 1/2000 sec.
 
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