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Thread: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

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    G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    I haven't even charged the battery yet. It seems like the buttons are in the wrong places for my hands. AE/AF on the Display button doesn't work; perhaps not a huge deal for that one. The Quick Menu button is awkward down below.

    Trying to talk myself into it, but....

    I am a big fan of getting the ergonomics right as part of choosing a camera.

    Grrrrr. Decisions...

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    How will you be shooting all from EVF? What are your most used functions? I have very little that I need to get to on the quick menu.

    Also, if you use the LCD, you don't need AE/AF lock as much because of touch focus.

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    How will you be shooting all from EVF? What are your most used functions? I have very little that I need to get to on the quick menu.

    Also, if you use the LCD, you don't need AE/AF lock as much because of touch focus.
    I am about an 80/20 EVF/LCD user. I absolutely love having the LCD for tough angle shots, but otherwise I use the EVF. This means I like to have the controls to hand so I do not have to take my eye away from the EVF to change settings.

    The Quick Menu does quite well combined with the command wheel; I've come to use it a fair bit on my current cameras, but having it down on the bottom on the G3 seems awkward.

    I switch metering mode, AF mode, ISO using the Quick Menu although I also use the ISO button for that equally as often.

    I also use the mode switch on top to switch between timer/bracketing/continuous/single.

    The display button as a replacement for AE/AF is also really awkwardly placed and not raised. I do not use the AE/AF button that much, though.

    I use the display button a fair bit in playback mode, but I am assuming it still behaves as the display button when in playback even if you have reassigned it.

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    I put 'Select AF/MF' on the Qmenu/Fn2 button. I put 'AF' on the DISP/Fn1 button. The half press of the shutter button meters for me.
    I was having trouble feeling the Fn1 button, so I cut 2 layers of gaffers tape and made a spot for over the button. It has really helped. I have ordered some 5mm dots which I'm hoping will work even better. If they don't work, the gaffers tape will suffice. Besides, I don't use AF too often, so it is not a deal breaker. I liked the ergonomics of the G2 a little better, but I like the IQ of the G3 better...so I will adjust.

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Timer bracketing etc is on the bottom of the four way now.

    Dipslay works as display should when in playback even if reassigned for shooting.

    EVF will auto switch to LCD if you set Play on LCD to on in the menu. to get out of playback and start using EVF again tap shutter.

    I've got the Quick menu set for my favorite 5 things right in a row and fast to get to.

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Timer bracketing etc is on the bottom of the four way now.

    Dipslay works as display should when in playback even if reassigned for shooting.

    EVF will auto switch to LCD if you set Play on LCD to on in the menu. to get out of playback and start using EVF again tap shutter.

    I've got the Quick menu set for my favorite 5 things right in a row and fast to get to.
    But you cannot get to the Quick Menu via a button with your settings, correct? You have to go to the touchscreen?

    Thanks,

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    I liked the ergonomics of the G2 a little better, but I like the IQ of the G3 better...so I will adjust.
    That is why I posted this.

    I would like the IQ, and the faster AF, and that is why I bought the G3 without handling it first, but now the ergonomics are worrying me.

    I guess I need to ask myself if I would have bought it after having handled it in a store first.

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    But you cannot get to the Quick Menu via a button with your settings, correct? You have to go to the touchscreen?

    Thanks,

    Doug
    I didn't change quick menu.

    four way controller
    top ISO
    left Focus (face-detect/single etc)
    right WB
    bottom bracket/burst/self timer

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    That is why I posted this.

    I would like the IQ, and the faster AF, and that is why I bought the G3 without handling it first, but now the ergonomics are worrying me.

    I guess I need to ask myself if I would have bought it after having handled it in a store first.

    Doug
    interesting post Doug. I use the qmenu button quite a bit. Ever since my Pentax MX I liked seeing everything I needed through the viewfinder. But when cameras got more complex (like my EOS) I needed to refer to the top for some changes (like mode) which I don't mind. Perhaps its just that?

    I still find myself looking at the back for adjustment of some things on my GH1. I'll be interested to see how you go, but I advise don't jump ship just yet, igve it a little while

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Try putting a dot on the button. It really helps. Give it some time, I really like the camera now that I've used it a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    That is why I posted this.

    I would like the IQ, and the faster AF, and that is why I bought the G3 without handling it first, but now the ergonomics are worrying me.

    I guess I need to ask myself if I would have bought it after having handled it in a store first.

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Well simply solution is to try a GH2 if you feel the ergonomics don't work for you.

    Both are very good cameras, and both have their fans.

    I personally hated the G3's feel in hand, but the images and everything else was very nice.

    I don't do movies or anything so spending $300 extra for a GH2 maybe is a little silly, as a $599 G3 takes images just as nice as $899 GH2, but I'd rather have spent more money on a camera want to use rather than $600 on one thats going to just sit and gather dust because it feels uncomfortable in my hand.

    The lack of grip just didn't work for me. I know I'm in the minority and many don't have a problem with it, but I also know I'm not the only one.

    Simple solution is to get your hands on a GH2 or even an older G series and see if you find it that much better.

    If you do, well, then either pay the extra money or see if you can live with the G3

    No choice is right or wrong, but knowing is rather priceless.

    Maybe you will find the Gh2 is not any better for you and you can happily go back to the G3 (or somethign else all together)

    As it sounds now, your probably just going to always be wondering if you should of got something else and that can certainly eat at you, taking the fun away from shooting because all your going to be thinking about is the ergonomics over and over.

    Been there, done that.

    Knowing is half the battle

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    I haven't even charged the battery yet. It seems like the buttons are in the wrong places for my hands. AE/AF on the Display button doesn't work; perhaps not a huge deal for that one. The Quick Menu button is awkward down below.

    Trying to talk myself into it, but....

    I am a big fan of getting the ergonomics right as part of choosing a camera.

    Grrrrr. Decisions...

    Doug
    It would be so easy - just sell it and get an EP3

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    ... or a top ergonomic HelloKittyCam !

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Interesting but due to individuality I guess. I shot all day yesterday with G3 and find it just right for handling. (I do have a G1 and GF1). I've set up my Fn buttons to suit with preview on Fn 1. I really only use that for MF lenses occasionally and display is on screen--don't use that much either. I use AEL a lot so have put it on Fn2 bottom and its much more ergonomically pleasing than on G1 on top row. I have my Q menu pared down to essentials and found it not difficult to use on screen in bright Southern light. I keep my LCD turned in except for occasional use of Q menu or display and for review just turn it out and its displayed.

    I carried the camera on my Y strap with the small and very flexible Lowepro Terra clime underneath with 2 more lenses and for a whole day found this to be a lovely way to shoot. Hardly knew I was carrying anything and when I did, after 3 weeks, the camera felt quite right to me, buttons that I use often are on the 4 way or the Fn buttons, my custom is set up for 3 ways I like to shoot, grip felt good in hand so I'm happy.

    Diane

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    I was having trouble feeling the Fn1 button, so I cut 2 layers of gaffers tape and made a spot for over the button. It has really helped. I have ordered some 5mm dots which I'm hoping will work even better. If they don't work, the gaffers tape will suffice.
    What a great idea - thanks very much for posting this. Several times now I've been looking through the evf and I need to focus quickly and so I just start my thumb pressing on the back of the camera figuring I'll hit the button. Some type of tape or textured dot will fix this.
    ---------------
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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    I haven't even charged the battery yet. It seems like the buttons are in the wrong places for my hands. AE/AF on the Display button doesn't work; perhaps not a huge deal for that one. The Quick Menu button is awkward down below.

    Trying to talk myself into it, but....

    I am a big fan of getting the ergonomics right as part of choosing a camera.

    Grrrrr. Decisions...

    Doug
    Me too Doug - I always try a camera in the hand before purchase these days... saves a lot of grief

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by Millsart View Post
    Well simply solution is to try a GH2 if you feel the ergonomics don't work for you.

    Both are very good cameras, and both have their fans.

    I personally hated the G3's feel in hand, but the images and everything else was very nice.

    I don't do movies or anything so spending $300 extra for a GH2 maybe is a little silly, as a $599 G3 takes images just as nice as $899 GH2, but I'd rather have spent more money on a camera want to use rather than $600 on one thats going to just sit and gather dust because it feels uncomfortable in my hand.

    The lack of grip just didn't work for me. I know I'm in the minority and many don't have a problem with it, but I also know I'm not the only one.

    Simple solution is to get your hands on a GH2 or even an older G series and see if you find it that much better.

    If you do, well, then either pay the extra money or see if you can live with the G3

    No choice is right or wrong, but knowing is rather priceless.

    Maybe you will find the Gh2 is not any better for you and you can happily go back to the G3 (or somethign else all together)

    As it sounds now, your probably just going to always be wondering if you should of got something else and that can certainly eat at you, taking the fun away from shooting because all your going to be thinking about is the ergonomics over and over.

    Been there, done that.

    Knowing is half the battle
    Sorry, I should have been clear. I have been on the M4/3 bandwagon since the G1. I have a G1 converted to IR, a G2 which got purloined by my wife (which led me to ordering the G3 sooner than I would have :-), and a GH1 I picked up on the cheap. I know the G1/G2 form factor works for me. Not sure I want to spend the extra for the GH2 given that I have the GH1 (yes, I know the advantages of AF speed, greater resolution, not sure the IQ is that much better than the GH1, but possibly IQ).

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    It would be so easy - just sell it and get an EP3
    Heh, don't think that hasn't occurred to me. I've been with Panny since the G1, and I am used to their menu system (such as it is).

    I really like the flip out screen, Not sure the VF-2's ability to go vertical would make up for that enough. I am primarily a viewfinder person, so possibly an okay compromise.

    Of course, the EP3's IQ is supposedly pretty comparable to the G2, so no G3'esque improvement there, but no loss.

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Me too Doug - I always try a camera in the hand before purchase these days... saves a lot of grief

    Cheers

    Brian
    Yup, broke my own rule

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    Try putting a dot on the button. It really helps. Give it some time, I really like the camera now that I've used it a while.
    An interesting idea. I will see what that might do.

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Doug,

    How much actual shooting have you done with the G3? I ask because it's clear you are more familiar with cameras that have a substantially different feel. Unless you have already done so, consider going on several long shoots, where you photograph in your 'typical' way. Just focus on the photography and see how it goes.

    In my brief time with the G3 I was surprised at how effective the ergonomics are un such a small beast. But it is different, and an in-depth session or two, where you forget about any decision you have to make, might answer your questions.

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelao View Post
    Doug,

    How much actual shooting have you done with the G3? I ask because it's clear you are more familiar with cameras that have a substantially different feel. Unless you have already done so, consider going on several long shoots, where you photograph in your 'typical' way. Just focus on the photography and see how it goes.

    In my brief time with the G3 I was surprised at how effective the ergonomics are un such a small beast. But it is different, and an in-depth session or two, where you forget about any decision you have to make, might answer your questions.
    Well, as I said in my original message, I have not even charged the battery yet.

    Your point is well taken, but I think I have to decide if it even passes the, "Would I take this camera home with me" test before I take it out on a shoot (and I have a shoot planned for this weekend because of the arrival of the G3, so that was the plan).

    Once I use it, it is no longer "new"....

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Interesting discussion, and I had very similar thoughts when I tried the G3 and GH2 in the shop a few days ago. My conclusion was that the GH2 has superior ergonomics both with regards to shape and controls. That doesn't rule out the G3 for me, and a smaller camera would be nice for city use, but that will be after I've bought the GH2 (or GH3?).

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    just got mine .... coming from a G1, RD-1, D300, AFD-II, the thing is down right micro! With the 20mm on it, it is really a solid feeling camera. I shot a lot of different cameras, and the only one that I can really work by feel is the D300, had it for almost 3 years now, and am selling off a d7000. The RD-1 with a CV40 is close, but I still spin things the wrong way every now and then, but I'm a bit dyslexic anyway!.

    Never did get to the point with the G1 where I could use it fully by feel, same with the AFD-II, but it is getting closer .....

    Given the that my Micro 4/3 fills my GAS slot, I doubt the subtle ergonomic issues will ever be that important to me.

    Dave

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Well, I went to Keeble yesterday and tried out the EP3 with the VF2 (they had the Oly 12mm as well, yum).

    I was surprised that the VF-2 actually seemed better than the Panny VF. I was able to try the different cams side by side which was a big help. Bottom line, I think I would miss the swivel screen too much.

    So, I guess I am heading towards selling the (unused) G3 and getting a GH2. The ergonomics definitely make a difference for me here.

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Of all these EVFs, I only have real-life experience with G1 and GH1 EVFs. But I have played with VF-2, G3 and A55 EVFs in store. What I didn't like about VF-2 and to some extent G3 EVF was that they seemed "too bright" and "too white" for the conditions, giving them an unnatural feel. This is something which I didn't experience with G1/GH1 EVFs which seem to match the original scene pretty well in most "non-high-contrast" situations to the extent that they felt just like OVF in most cases.

    Am I alone in feeling this way? Off course it could just be the particular conditions in which I tried these EVFs and maybe my real-life experience would be different. But would be interesting to hear the thoughts of those who have used both EVFs, if they felt something like that.

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    Well, I went to Keeble yesterday and tried out the EP3 with the VF2 (they had the Oly 12mm as well, yum).

    I was surprised that the VF-2 actually seemed better than the Panny VF. I was able to try the different cams side by side which was a big help. Bottom line, I think I would miss the swivel screen too much.

    So, I guess I am heading towards selling the (unused) G3 and getting a GH2. The ergonomics definitely make a difference for me here.

    Doug
    Well it's good that you were able to compare and decide what works for you.

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Well, I put the G3 in the for sale forum.

    I spent the weekend shooting with some of my Nikkor lenses on my GH1, and it became clear that having that little bit of extra size and heft to balance them was a big help.

    So, it will be either a GH2 or wait for a while.

    It's been an interesting conversation :-).

    Doug

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    Re: G3 came -- Just not sure -- ergonomics

    Quote Originally Posted by curious80 View Post
    Of all these EVFs, I only have real-life experience with G1 and GH1 EVFs. But I have played with VF-2, G3 and A55 EVFs in store. What I didn't like about VF-2 and to some extent G3 EVF was that they seemed "too bright" and "too white" for the conditions, giving them an unnatural feel. This is something which I didn't experience with G1/GH1 EVFs which seem to match the original scene pretty well in most "non-high-contrast" situations to the extent that they felt just like OVF in most cases.

    Am I alone in feeling this way? Off course it could just be the particular conditions in which I tried these EVFs and maybe my real-life experience would be different. But would be interesting to hear the thoughts of those who have used both EVFs, if they felt something like that.
    You can adjust the EVF and LCD brightness and color balance to your taste.

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