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Thread: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

  1. #51
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I have done much more on film lately than previously, and I enjoy it a lot, even the workflow. It slows me down and makes me think, but that's me

    E-5, not yet. I've ordered a couple of lenses for starters (Panaleica 14-50 and Sigma 50/1.4). They will hopefully arrive here next week. I need to do this step-by-step. Monies are only available in small piles, so I buy new gear as old bodies are wearing out.
    I completely stopped film some 3 years ago. My last activities were to scan some of my old MF films from my Hasselblad days - gave excellent results but took too much time, especially removing dust. As long as you do not digitize, film is great, otherwise it is too much workload required - at lest for me.

    You will enjoy the E5 - great camera, great lenses! Only issue is that I am no longer sure about the future of the E system, so I really would consider taking that step now or in the future, as M43 seems to become a decent replacement for the E system, especially with the new X lenses and the M43 pro bodies.

    Issue for me is that all the best EVFs today are still lightyears away from pro like OVFs as you get in an E5. Not sure when these will become equally good.

  2. #52
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Issue for me is that all the best EVFs today are still lightyears away from pro like OVFs as you get in an E5. Not sure when these will become equally good.
    Maybe they will never look the same, which is still the case for b&w film compared to digital. I don't worry about that, and I don't worry that my gear will be discontinued. I'm sure there will be enough of it around to last the rest of my life. I've bought two new-in-box OM lenses the last year.

    Oh, and I do scan film btw.:

    OM-2 with Zuiko 28mm f/2.8 and Delta 100


  3. #53
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Maybe they will never look the same, which is still the case for b&w film compared to digital. I don't worry about that, and I don't worry that my gear will be discontinued. I'm sure there will be enough of it around to last the rest of my life. I've bought two new-in-box OM lenses the last year.

    Oh, and I do scan film btw.:

    Obviously very different approaches, but ok, enjoy then!

  4. #54
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    it has, properly designed lenses do not have such huge distortions... and as a result they do not have noise banding as a result of software corrections

    we are talking about geometric distortions here
    Properly designed lenses are those that produce optimal results in the system they are designed for. Period.

    Before digital photography geometric distortion HAD to be corrected in the lens, as later correction was impractical. If astigmatism and coma suffered to a degree as a result, and the corners became softer, so be it because severe geometric distortion was a lot more painful visually. Now designers are not bound by that, and can address various corrections, as well as reduce the size of the lenses by letting geometric distortion and lateral chromatic aberration 'float' and correcting it in software, giving us optimal image quality by 'properly' designing lenses.

    Henning

  5. #55
    Member kwalsh's Avatar
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    it has, properly designed lenses do not have such huge distortions...
    No, a properly designed lens minimizes all aberrations in the output image to the greatest degree possible. This is why leaving distortion and lateral CA for software is in fact more proper. Requiring no distortion constrains the stop location from its optimal location for image sharpness. By removing that constraint and performing the correction in software better overall image quality is obtained.

    See this figure:



    Notice, when field curvature and coma (not correctable in software) are minimum there is plenty of residual lateral CA and distortion (which are trivially corrected in software).

    If we follow your advice and instead design for no distortion we will have more coma and field curvature and a lower quality image in the end.

    As for the noise banding, I remember your example. I tried desperately to recreate it using very high ISOs and extreme contrast profiles with the 20/1.7 and was never able to reproduce it (using both a G1 and a GH2 and LR3). If you've got a consistent method of producing it I'd love to try again, it sounds like an interesting problem to investigate.

    Ken

    P.S. - Hasselblad, complete pantywaists in the image quality department by your logic, had this to say about their approach to lens design and software corrections:

    For example, in the case of our new HC series 28mm lens, the only way we can get the lens to produce images of Hasselblad quality is by having an integrated system and utilizing our knowledge of our optics, our cameras, and our digital magazines, having them communicate with each other, and applying software within the system to compensate for issues that arise (such as lens distortion) and optimize the image.
    Last edited by kwalsh; 29th August 2011 at 16:48.

  6. #56
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post
    If we follow your advice and instead design for no distortion we will have more coma and field curvature and a lower quality image in the end.
    there is a difference between overcorrecting trying to achieve 0% distortion and intentionally designing the lens w/ 5-7% distortions to make the lens cheaper...

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post
    As for the noise banding, I remember your example. I tried desperately to recreate it using very high ISOs and extreme contrast profiles with the 20/1.7 and was never able to reproduce it (using both a G1 and a GH2 and LR3). If you've got a consistent method of producing it I'd love to try again, it sounds like an interesting problem to investigate.
    I can refer you to the topic in Adobe forums where this (noise banding as a result of optics correction by software, because you can't get rid of it) was acknowledged by Eric Chan of Adobe Labs

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/798576

    PS: I agree that you see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... but I do, may be I have a better eyesight ? in any case I hope that PL25/1.4 will not be designed as P20/1.7 and I can replace it.

  7. #57
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post

    See this figure:
    says "simple lens"... how simple it is ? couple of of elements for educational purposes ?

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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by henningw View Post
    Before digital photography
    I think you wanted to say before Panasonic decided to save some $$$...

    because there were and are lenses designed for digital sensors before and now, w/o that huge amount of geometric distortion... take LX3 P&S for example - Samsung did a better job w/ lens (and faster and longer) in EX1/TL500 w/o that...

    Quote Originally Posted by henningw View Post
    giving us optimal image quality by 'properly' designing lenses.
    it is not that optimal... cheaper - yes.

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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    I think you wanted to say before Panasonic decided to save some $$$...

    because there were and are lenses designed for digital sensors before and now, w/o that huge amount of geometric distortion... take LX3 P&S for example - Samsung did a better job w/ lens (and faster and longer) in EX1/TL500 w/o that...

    it is not that optimal... cheaper - yes.
    Please. I know what I want to say, and that certainly isn't it.

    With respect to the LX3 lens: it has corrections applied; and w.r.t. the LX3 and Samsung EX1 - these are P&S cameras with rather different design and performance parameters than the lenses for the G series.

    Optimal is when you achieve outstanding performance by whatever means you can, and that implies total system performance. With film, the software corrections weren't available, and thus we had lesser performance because the optical designers had to make a lens that balanced all the performance lowering parameters, but could not produce a general purpose lens, ie, one that worked at many distances and over the whole visible spectral range that didn't show most of the aberrations to some degree.

    With software correction we have much higher performance lenses.

    Bringing in the cost into this argument is a red herring, because all manufacturers at all times have and will continue to reduce costs, whatever they produce.

    In any case, yes, the software correction method of image correction is a fully valid and effective way of optimizing system image quality.

    I have used and still have many lenses that do not rely on software correction to achieve very high image quality: Summilux 50mm ASPH, Summilux 21mm, Tri-Elmar 16-21mm, Canon 17mm TS-E, Apo Ronar 240 and 480mm, Photars from 25mm to 120mm, Biogon 38mm, etc.

    All have some failing; the most noticeable common one is price. Other than that, in spite of their price and state of the art design, the Summilux 21 and the Tri-Elmar 16-21 have rather high distortion. The Canon 17 is huge and in the far corners has image quality falloff such that you really have to use f/11, the Apo Ronars are f/9 and the Biogon has a lot of vignetting and some softness in the corners compared with current designs. If the designers had software correction available for their imaging systems, they could have made lenses that produced higher quality images.

    They could have optimized them.

    In the end, optimization is not an absolute thing. The banding that is apparent in some instances will affect me less than you, it seems. To me, it's more important to have an optical system that is very sharp at all EI's and every picture due to excellent correction for most aberrations that affect image quality, and have distortion and CA 'fixed' in software than have a lens thats not that sharp wide open and in the corners, and has maybe 2% distortion but that renders more smoothly on the GH2 sensor at EI 5000 with the contrast and sharpness bumped high. And might cost me more.

    Henning
    Last edited by henningw; 31st August 2011 at 09:46.

  10. #60
    Member kwalsh's Avatar
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    I think you wanted to say before Panasonic decided to save some $$$...
    Your evidence for that assertion is?

    because there were and are lenses designed for digital sensors before and now, w/o that huge amount of geometric distortion... take LX3 P&S for example - Samsung did a better job w/ lens (and faster and longer) in EX1/TL500 w/o that...
    Hey, thanks for proving my point and illustrating how you throw around speculation without even looking at objective data:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/stud...&x=0&y=0<br />

    What's that in the corners and edges of the EX1? Horrific coma and astigmatism? Would that be three cameras that use SW correction having better IQ than the EX1? Just like I said?

    Check out the label at the top of the martini bottle. The EX1 looks like garbage, not surprising since they didn't optimize the design as they should.

    QED

    Ken

  11. #61
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/stud...&x=0&y=0<br />

    What's that in the corners and edges of the EX1? Horrific coma and astigmatism? Would that be three cameras that use SW correction having better IQ than the EX1?
    hey, it saves you applying any 'nostalgic' filters in post

  12. #62
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    I am starting to see some nice example images from the 45-175mm f4-5.6 X lens. - previous reference removed - I had the 45-200 and enjoyed it very much before switching to the 14-140, 100-300 combination.

    I am having trouble seeing how the new positive features of the X lens are a good tradeoff for any loss of IQ:

    DMC-365 - My Year with Lumix Camera Equipment: Results From New Lumix 45-175mm f4-5.6 Starting to Appear


    Now, I know it's more about how the lens works for a person than specifications. But, I have trouble believing it could be better, at least for me, than the 45-200.

    To those who've used it - am I missing something?

    Reed
    DMC-365.blogspot.com
    Last edited by rgeorge911; 25th January 2012 at 19:15. Reason: Removed reference to report on 45-175 without link - sorry about that

  13. #63
    Member kwalsh's Avatar
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Hi Reed,

    I couldn't find the link in your article about the 45-175 being a bit softer. Just OdzBodkinz's post with his flowers.

    I did post a comparison at DPR a few weeks back:

    45-200/45-175/40-150 the winner is...: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

    And someone else around that time was doing some blog entries with comparisons as well.

    I did not find the 45-175 to be a big optical improvement over my 45-200. More of a trade. The 45-175 does appear to handle flare better, and in normal shooting this appears as slightly better micro-contrast. On the other hand, at least at infinity focus, the 45-200 appears to be sharper in the corners and edges than the 45-175. I'm not sure one would evaluate one or the other to be better - just a different balance of optical parameters.

    Now, what certainly is different is the size and weight. The 45-175 is more compact and lighter for sure. And of course the cost is different as well, but not huge in my book.

    I found the 45-175 IS to be ineffective at typical shutter speeds. Does well at very low shutter speeds where you don't expect perfectly sharp results, but in the 1 to 2 stops below hand holding range it doesn't help at all - same success rate turning it off.

    So, the 45-175 was a bit of a let down for me. I stuck with the 45-200. It still is a good lens if you realize it doesn't have very good IS and consider the slightly improved micro-contrast to be a benefit compared to the slightly reduced edge sharpness. If size and weight matter (and for many of us in m43 land it does) then it brings a lot to the table (or rather it doesn't and that's a good thing). Still, in the end, I stayed with the heavier 45-200. It seems the QC on the 45-200 might be poor, and so for anyone that had a lemon of a 45-200 I'm sure the 45-175 is a vast improvement.

    Link in my DPR post above to a giant gallery of comparison shots between the 45-200, 45-175 and 40-150 all at infinity if you are interested in obsessing over 100% views!

    Ken

  14. #64
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    Re: New 'X' Panasonic lenses

    Hi Ken,

    I am embarrassed to say that I indeed didn't link to that report, and now cannot find it. Therefore, I simply must retract my earlier reference to it. Sorry about that.

    I really appreciate your experience with these lenses. It seems to reinforce my thought that there's no big reason for me to reconsider my current lens choices.

    Reed
    DMC-365.blogspot.com

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