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Thread: OMG!

  1. #151
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    it isnt 'equal'
    they do not account for Sony sensor black-level offset in Nikon's for instance, this gives Nikon an advantage in reducing the noise floor, hence artificially widening the DR as they have a noise cut-off.
    The same is true to Sony sensor cooked RAWs, they can tell you its happening but they dont correct their data, another advantage to Sony sensors.
    Nope, the DR is still the same. The total DR that is. They measure from noise floor to top.


    measure a K5 or D7000 in IMATEST and they produce around 12 stops of DR not all that far from anyone else.
    Which points then to something wrong in IMATEST then because as I have seen for myself, the DR of the K-5 is indeed a jump from most.

    The same system sees 4/3rds sensors with 11.5 stops DR in RAW that magically gets reduced to 10.5 stops engineering DR or so in DxO,
    which is of course - impossible. DxO Im sure are good for some things, this isnt one of them ...
    The other way around. A lot of IMATEST done depends on an external raw converter, DXo depends on their own direct measurement. That's why you see so many websites running the same IMATEST with so many different results- even Imaging Resource used to comment for years (they don't do that anymore) that they couldn't explain how come the D70 scored lower than the E-300 (or was it e-330? I can't remember anymore ).

    Not to say more on this, since it was said to you before already:

    Re: DR measurements: DxOMark vs IMATEST: Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
    Re: DR measurements: DxOMark vs IMATEST: Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

    youve been told this time after time and still dont get it
    but eventually, like the faked ISO you used to claim one can hope that somehow it penetrates
    eventually
    I have been told time and time again by people that apparently don't understand what they are talking about, nor the fact that I verify things for myself. The DR of the K-5 is definitively significantly more, than the E-3/E-5. I don't say this just trusting Dxo but by experience. It is because of this experience (well before this obviously , say with e-300/330/410/420/e-3/620) that I tend to trust Dxo on DR and ISO scores.

    - Raist

    PS: I am not going to go back and forth with you here on getdpi. It's just not worth my time arguing with you as I stated months ago on dpreview, simply because I have seen weird things from dynamically changing the subject to suit a point (lenses, I remember) to a bunch of other things an intention. You can go ahead and say what you want, I am just going to skip it here too.

  2. #152
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Excellent . . . I've made a grand start in my quest not to by the OMG . . . it's been announced for more than 12 hours and I haven't placed an order.
    Hey Jono, saw your other post on this and I applaud your restraint :-) There will always be something better. ;-)

    But if you want to make fun of me, the EM5 thought crosses my mind though very lightly, the one I want to check is the DP2M wherever that comes out.

    - Raist

  3. #153
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    Re: OMG!

    On the EM-5 - I think Olympus will sell out of this camera. Would not surprise me at all it gets back ordered. I really think the asking price for the total package is excellent. No complaints there.

    I never warmed up to Olympus 4/3rd lenses until their new primes started to come out. My only critique on those is some are not weather sealed and some are. Would be better if all of them where.

    - Raist

  4. #154
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Nope, the DR is still the same. The total DR that is. They measure from noise floor to top.
    and if your RAWs have NR, or perhaps you engage in black clipping black-level offset
    that immediately alters the balance to anything else

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d
    Which points then to something wrong in IMATEST then because as I have seen for myself, the DR of the K-5 is indeed a jump from most.
    well pffft to that

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d
    The other way around. A lot of IMATEST done depends on an external raw converter, DXo depends on their own direct measurement. That's why you see so many websites running the same IMATEST with so many different results- even Imaging Resource used to comment for years (they don't do that anymore) that they couldn't explain how come the D70 scored lower than the E-300 (or was it e-330? I can't remember anymore ).
    just as DPR run there own version of DR and res tests, there are variations of method, you simply need to understand what each sites review components are good for

    where he was quick to talk about how IR used Adobe RAW under 'his suspicion' that they used adobes ability to reduce noise (which would be with every individual test anyway) yet at the same time failed to acknowledge the issue of NR in RAW until sometime later, IMO he never once entered in a good faith discussion about it. The fact of the matter became this, that IMATEST are perfectly valid results photographers can asses with tangible images shot of step wedge charts, that with IMATEST there is an evidence trail,

    DxO quite simply is a black box that advantages sensors that have noise abatement technologies such as black-level offset &/or NR.

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d
    I have been told time and time again by people that apparently don't understand what they are talking about, nor the fact that I verify things for myself. The DR of the K-5 is definitively significantly more, than the E-3/E-5. I don't say this just trusting Dxo but by experience. It is because of this experience (well before this obviously , say with e-300/330/410/420/e-3/620) that I tend to trust Dxo on DR and ISO scores.
    the last challenge you made attesting your understanding of DxO results here was about YOUR notion that manufacturers where somehow cheating published ISO b/se DxO saw it differently. You went so far with this you were adding and subtracting ISO figures based on your reading of DxO in some strange attempt to 'equalise' what you saw as erroneously manufactured ISO

    ask yourself what ever happened to that argument
    that gets to the guts of your understanding of DxO


    - Raist
    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d
    PS: I am not going to go back and forth with you here on getdpi. It's just not worth my time arguing with you as I stated months ago on dpreview, simply because I have seen weird things from dynamically changing the subject to suit a point (lenses, I remember) to a bunch of other things an intention. You can go ahead and say what you want, I am just going to skip it here too.
    actually you seem to spend quite a lot of time all over the net trashing 4/3rds pretty heavily and annoying users, while offering slight condolence on occasional but rare lucid moments about how good it might be...

  5. #155
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    On the EM-5 - I think Olympus will sell out of this camera. Would not surprise me at all it gets back ordered. I really think the asking price for the total package is excellent. No complaints there.

    I never warmed up to Olympus 4/3rd lenses until their new primes started to come out. My only critique on those is some are not weather sealed and some are. Would be better if all of them where.

    - Raist
    I guess you mean m4/3rds lenses... true, though the mZD 9-18 and mZD 14-150 were pretty good. The 45mm f1.8 is outstanding.

    I don't know - it's easy to see folks whipped into a frenzy on the forums right now... but will that translate to demand greater than supply (neither of which we know much about)?

    I think it's a risky (but very welcome) move by Olympus to go aggressively for this position - weathersealed, seriously well thought out ergonomics... it's the weathersealed E-400 I've wanted for years.

    I wonder what kind of delay there will be to that EVF? and how consistent? If it's very short, and very consistent... with leading edge S-AF, this could be useful for action shooting - at least when the fast weathersealed lenses come along.

    Plenty of scope for this line to improve over the next couple of generations too... global shutter, range of weathersealed lenses.

    Cheers

    Brian

  6. #156
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Playing hard to get, eh? A sign of long lasting love if there ever was one

    Oh, and by the way, Jono, I think they made this one specially for you

    OLYMPUS OM-D - THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW - YouTube
    Thank you for that Jorgen - Silas just watched it and wondered why it wasn't already ordered!

    I think it looks wonderful . . . . but without focus peaking my R lenses will be useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Hey Jono, saw your other post on this and I applaud your restraint :-) There will always be something better. ;-)

    But if you want to make fun of me, the EM5 thought crosses my mind though very lightly, the one I want to check is the DP2M wherever that comes out.

    - Raist
    Ahhh - we all have our weak points - Fovean doesn't press my button . . but focus peaking does!

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    On the EM-5 - I think Olympus will sell out of this camera. Would not surprise me at all it gets back ordered. I really think the asking price for the total package is excellent. No complaints there.

    I never warmed up to Olympus 4/3rd lenses until their new primes started to come out. My only critique on those is some are not weather sealed and some are. Would be better if all of them where.

    - Raist
    I quite agree - I think they've done a grand job - I find it very tempting!

    Just this guy you know

  7. #157
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I wonder what kind of delay there will be to that EVF? and how consistent? If it's very short, and very consistent... with leading edge S-AF, this could be useful for action shooting - at least when the fast weathersealed lenses come along.

    Plenty of scope for this line to improve over the next couple of generations too... global shutter, range of weathersealed lenses.

    Cheers

    Brian
    ello Brian
    the 'lag' in the EVF is now at 29ms
    its switchable from 120 fps to 60 fps (frames per second)

    to put 29 ms in perspective it is about 2/3 rds the lag you get with a typical SLR or about par with a very good one. Excepting pelicle mirror type SLRs and probably (although I haven't seen a spec) Sony's SLT.

  8. #158
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    Re: OMG!

    Neat demo of the 5 axis stabilization (video) of the sensor in EM-5:

    "Olympus OM-D E-M5 Five-Axis Sensor-Shift Image Stabilization Hands-On" - Videos - Viddler

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    Pre-order placed. I agree that the black one looks better.
    I got the Pen 1 in chrome because it just looked sexy. But when using it I found the chrome too distracting and flashy. I got the Ep2 in black/gunmetal sort of grey. That was much better, but the coating on the Ep2 started to peel off and reveal the silver beneath. So now its black and silver. But I like it still.

    OM-D I would love a titanium version or dark grey version rather than black or chrome. I think Oly is reserving special colors for limited edition releases, perhaps a safari version, Ti version, or all white version etc etc.

    A raw titanium, crackled finish would be VERY nice. But since the choice is black or chrome for now, the BLACK is the better choice. It will stand out from the canikony crown which have smooth humps. The OM-D will look like a transformer monster next to those smooth lump of plastics. So even in black, it will look great, look technical and shout Man Toy, serious shooter, great taste...haha. Just my opinion.

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    Just this guy you know

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I found lots of cameras to compare it with but no apples or oranges
    Retirement tempting cameras abound at the minute, but now I have 15, 21, 40 and 70 Ltd's Pentax is winning in a logical way. Not that logic has ever been my strong point.
    Hope all is well, with you and yours.
    David

  14. #164
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidL View Post
    I found lots of cameras to compare it with but no apples or oranges
    Retirement tempting cameras abound at the minute, but now I have 15, 21, 40 and 70 Ltd's Pentax is winning in a logical way. Not that logic has ever been my strong point.
    Hope all is well, with you and yours.
    David
    Absolutely - lots of interesting cameras - maybe you need the funny looking Pentax? (I think it looks pretty cool, but no EVF is a bit of a dropped bullock)

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: OMG!

    So it looks like after you take away all the new cool stuff of the OMD, I wonder if IQ will be any better then a GH2, G3, GX1 at base ISO shooting RAW, I'm sure olympus jpeg engine will be much improved though.
    I'm still looking forward to the new Fuji, I think this will be the Overall IQ champ for a 16mp mirror less camera.
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

  16. #166
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    So it looks like after you take away all the new cool stuff of the OMD, I wonder if IQ will be any better then a GH2, G3, GX1 at base ISO shooting RAW, I'm sure olympus jpeg engine will be much improved though.
    I'm still looking forward to the new Fuji, I think this will be the Overall IQ champ for a 16mp mirror less camera.
    Hmmmm

    actually you might be right

  17. #167
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    So it looks like after you take away all the new cool stuff of the OMD, I wonder if IQ will be any better then a GH2, G3, GX1 at base ISO shooting RAW,
    I think all indications are "no" with the possible exception that they might use a weaker AA filter.

    Of course the same as the most recent Panasonic cameras is still significantly better than all the existing Olympus cameras that use the old 12MP sensor.

    And I suppose if you shoot primes in low light then IBIS with the newer sensors means lower ISO for better IQ in some shooting situations.

    They are being coy about the sensor, they always are, but besides what appear to be a few misunderstandings along the way all bets (including DPR's) are on it being the GX1/G3 sensor with minor tweaks.

    Ken

  18. #168
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    and if your RAWs have NR, or perhaps you engage in black clipping black-level offset
    that immediately alters the balance to anything else

    well pffft to that
    Yeah, pfft to the lack of experience you have with the K-5 apparently. Almost every K-5 owner that has other cameras too knows this, it's rather obvious, easy to prove and a reason (for those that need/want the DR) to get a K-5. :-)

    []
    where he was quick to talk about how IR used Adobe RAW under 'his suspicion' that they used adobes ability to reduce noise (which would be with every individual test anyway) yet at the same time failed to acknowledge the issue of NR in RAW until sometime later, IMO he never once entered in a good faith discussion about it. The fact of the matter became this, that IMATEST are perfectly valid results photographers can asses with tangible images shot of step wedge charts, that with IMATEST there is an evidence trail,

    DxO quite simply is a black box that advantages sensors that have noise abatement technologies such as black-level offset &/or NR.
    DXo goes to the source- the sensor. Everything else is the software running on top. They do separate Pentax at ISO 3200 for some fudging on the data of thigh ISO on K-5 and also the Q, so they are not ignoring things like that.

    the last challenge you made attesting your understanding of DxO results here was about YOUR notion that manufacturers where somehow cheating published ISO b/se DxO saw it differently. You went so far with this you were adding and subtracting ISO figures based on your reading of DxO in some strange attempt to 'equalise' what you saw as erroneously manufactured ISO

    ask yourself what ever happened to that argument
    that gets to the guts of your understanding of DxO
    I did not say they were cheating- just that they pick different tone curve shifts. DXo equalizes this for the comparison which is the rich thing to do. This argument was done and done, apparently it went through your head the explanation. I gave my explanation, pointed to DXo website's too which explains this rather well and quite frankly I think it should be somewhat obvious. I also demonstrated an example of this beyond the shadow of any doubt with the e-620 a while back, including step by step instructions and screen shots, using dcraw and encouraged everyone to *not believe me, but to do it and see for themselves.* In return from a select group of people like you I got a bunch of insults back and nonsense.

    This is beyond proven, I don't need nor will I revisit it. What I do remember is you misreading the DXo chart. So whatever happened to that argument apparently is that you just can't accept the occlusion or you agree to differ. That's fine, but I am done with that.


    - Raist

    actually you seem to spend quite a lot of time all over the net trashing 4/3rds pretty heavily and annoying users, while offering slight condolence on occasional but rare lucid moments about how good it might be...
    Not that I have to explain how you perceive how I spend my time to you, but at dpreview for the last months you have been the biggest poster at the Oly DSLR forum by far, and it's not sharing photographic gems. A select group of people get "annoyed" because they obviously choose so by clicking and reading threads that they claim bear no interest to them. Even putting the disclaimer that they can indeed choose to move on, doesn't seem to help these "victims."

    Many other users have commended me on what I have written so whatever. Moreover, my history with Olympus posts dates back further than you, and you will see as I have said before, not many said much when I was writing a glowing review of the e-420. I think the Em5 is a great camera and now that- as I would do and I haven't changed- call it so- you call it an "occasional but rare lucid moments about how good it might be." This is nonsense.

    And with this, this is my last reply to you here on getdpi.

  19. #169
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post
    I think all indications are "no" with the possible exception that they might use a weaker AA filter.

    Of course the same as the most recent Panasonic cameras is still significantly better than all the existing Olympus cameras that use the old 12MP sensor.

    And I suppose if you shoot primes in low light then IBIS with the newer sensors means lower ISO for better IQ in some shooting situations.

    They are being coy about the sensor, they always are, but besides what appear to be a few misunderstandings along the way all bets (including DPR's) are on it being the GX1/G3 sensor with minor tweaks.

    Ken
    So there is then the Kodak sensor from all the rumored tests between Kodak and Olympus? Or similar the Foveon sensor? Or any other NON Panasonic sensor, as they are out of the contract and do no longer need to get Pana sensors? ?

    I am a bit disappointed that they do not manage to get another manufacturer for their sensors ....

  20. #170
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    I did not say they were cheating- just that they pick different tone curve shifts. DXo equalizes this for the comparison which is the rich thing to do. This argument was done and done, apparently it went through your head the explanation. I gave my explanation, pointed to DXo website's too which explains this rather well and quite frankly I think it should be somewhat obvious. I also demonstrated an example of this beyond the shadow of any doubt with the e-620 a while back, including step by step instructions and screen shots, using dcraw and encouraged everyone to *not believe me, but to do it and see for themselves.* In return from a select group of people like you I got a bunch of insults back and nonsense.

    This is beyond proven, I don't need nor will I revisit it. What I do remember is you misreading the DXo chart. So whatever happened to that argument apparently is that you just can't accept the occlusion or you agree to differ. That's fine, but I am done with that.
    Im not aware of any 'misreading
    you made consecutive statements going on for some weeks that the published ISO was wrong, and you used some hocus pocus math you dreamed up to correct what you saw was some misdeed

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d
    Not that I have to explain how you perceive how I spend my time to you, but at dpreview for the last months you have been the biggest poster at the Oly DSLR forum by far, and it's not sharing photographic gems. A select group of people get "annoyed" because they obviously choose so by clicking and reading threads that they claim bear no interest to them. Even putting the disclaimer that they can indeed choose to move on, doesn't seem to help these "victims."
    well to point out a few things in order of appearance
    1) at the time you said this you were 3 posts in front of me in 1022, presently the position is 80/76, Im the 4th top poster.
    But then I do host Sunday Scapes and that makes around 30 of my posts a week.
    IOW ... I do something..

    2) I post at least one image a week on Sunday Scapes, presently my online gallery at dpr has 128 images in it,
    yours OTOH has exactly zero.

    3) an number of us have long been aware that you just post this stuff to agitate people in 1022

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d
    And with this, this is my last reply to you here on getdpi.
    that is of course another version of what you said last time, just some hours ago

  21. #171
    Senior Member Riley's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    So there is then the Kodak sensor from all the rumored tests between Kodak and Olympus? Or similar the Foveon sensor? Or any other NON Panasonic sensor, as they are out of the contract and do no longer need to get Pana sensors? ?

    I am a bit disappointed that they do not manage to get another manufacturer for their sensors ....
    my take
    its fabbed by Panasonic, it just isnt a sensor that Panasonic use
    Ive suspected for some time the entire wiring geometry is different
    certainly the colour filters on the bayer layer (and theyre bonded onto the sensor) are different, as is the AA filter

  22. #172
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    So there is then the Kodak sensor from all the rumored tests between Kodak and Olympus? Or similar the Foveon sensor? Or any other NON Panasonic sensor, as they are out of the contract and do no longer need to get Pana sensors? ?
    So far it appears not this time around. Olympus specifically called it a "Live MOS" sensor which is a Panasonic tradename for their CMOS sensors. So it seems really likely this is a Panasonic sensor. Interpreting what they've said so far about DR and high ISO noise improvement over the EP3 it sounds a lot like the GX1/G3 sensor or a very close derivative.

    I am a bit disappointed that they do not manage to get another manufacturer for their sensors ....
    There is probably a practicality issue to this. You want a lot of volume on a sensor. Those Sony APS-C sensors are all over the place because it is of benefit to both Sony and the people they sell them to because of the higher volume it generates. No one else is doing 4/3 sized sensors, so there isn't a sensor out there that Olympus can just buy. They would have to pay for an entirely new sensor and that might be prohibitive.

    On the other hand, the OM-D is not a cheap camera. Panasonic makes a unique sensor for the GH2 - which isn't a particularly high volume camera - and the OM-D will cost even more than the GH2. So perhaps it is possible they could go to someone else.

    Of course it is really to Panasonic's advantage to share volume with Olympus. So perhaps even though Olympus was "free" to pick someone else this time Panasonic made it worth their while to stay.

    Finally, consider that the new Panasonic sensors are actually pretty good. The only thing out there substantially better (and then only in certain cases) are the Sony sensors. From a practical standpoint besides us fanatics probably the vast majority of the market isn't going to notice or care. I'm sure for a camera company fighting to survive a bit more margin or more competitive price is worth trading a bit more noise and a bit less DR than the very best on the market.

    Ken

    P.S. All that said, I'd really drool for a Sony m43 sensor! And pay a premium for it.

  23. #173
    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Hey Ken, what do you think about the "Live Time" mode of the OM-D that lets you view a long exposure as it is being taken? Do you think this would be only possible with a digital sensor like the GH2 has? DPReview confirmed that the E-M5 sensor is a) not the same as the GH2's and b) not an oversized sensor. Those don't rule out the possibility that it is digital instead of analog though.

  24. #174
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    Re: OMG!

    I'm not sure how they are doing the "Live Time" and "Live Bulb" as there is more than one way to do that. But no, I'm fairly certain it can be done with either the "digital" GH line of sensors or the "analog" G/GF/EP line of sensors. Both sensor lines are CMOS, the "digital" line just has the ADCs on chip and the "analog" line has them off chip.

    Really all CMOS sensors can do it in theory, it is probably being done with what is called "non-destructive read". That means they "read" the sensor with out "reseting" it. In CMOS "read" just means turning on the pixel amplifiers in order. A "read" in CMOS never actually clears the pixel of charge, that is a separate "reset" action performed by a different transistor than the "read" amplifier. This is different than CCD. In CCD "reading" actually removes the charge from the pixel.

    Ken

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    I would be very surprised to see Olympus using anything other than Panasonic sensors for 4/3 and m4/3 as long as they are both parts of the consortium. Defining and designing two new lens mounts and everything around them in just a few years must have been a major investment and the exchange of technologies likewise significant. Both to protect themselves financially and to keep a good relationship, it's probably important for both parties to use each other's competence and technologies whenever possible. The little gain Olympus may or may not achieve by choosing another sensor supplier may backfire in the shape of a cooler working climate which in the long run could hurt compatibility between products and make m4/3 less attractive to photographers.

    It's all politics, and this is even Japanese politics

  26. #176
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post
    P.S. All that said, I'd really drool for a Sony m43 sensor! And pay a premium for it.
    +1

    Would pay even a high premium!

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    Re: OMG!

    Jorgen- I think theres in addition two issues:

    1. Who else would make the 4/3 sensor in volume to gain economies of scale benefit.
    2. that Panasonic probably gives Olympus a real nice price on the sensor

  28. #178
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Jorgen- I think theres in addition two issues:

    1. Who else would make the 4/3 sensor in volume to gain economies of scale benefit.
    2. that Panasonic probably gives Olympus a real nice price on the sensor
    1. Kodak did, 5, 8 and 10MP (maybe that's the reason they went bankrupt )

    2. Agree, and probably the other way around with Olympus technology.

  29. #179
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by kwalsh View Post
    So far it appears not this time around. Olympus specifically called it a "Live MOS" sensor which is a Panasonic tradename for their CMOS sensors. So it seems really likely this is a Panasonic sensor. Interpreting what they've said so far about DR and high ISO noise improvement over the EP3 it sounds a lot like the GX1/G3 sensor or a very close derivative.



    There is probably a practicality issue to this. You want a lot of volume on a sensor. Those Sony APS-C sensors are all over the place because it is of benefit to both Sony and the people they sell them to because of the higher volume it generates. No one else is doing 4/3 sized sensors, so there isn't a sensor out there that Olympus can just buy. They would have to pay for an entirely new sensor and that might be prohibitive.

    On the other hand, the OM-D is not a cheap camera. Panasonic makes a unique sensor for the GH2 - which isn't a particularly high volume camera - and the OM-D will cost even more than the GH2. So perhaps it is possible they could go to someone else.

    Of course it is really to Panasonic's advantage to share volume with Olympus. So perhaps even though Olympus was "free" to pick someone else this time Panasonic made it worth their while to stay.

    Finally, consider that the new Panasonic sensors are actually pretty good. The only thing out there substantially better (and then only in certain cases) are the Sony sensors. From a practical standpoint besides us fanatics probably the vast majority of the market isn't going to notice or care. I'm sure for a camera company fighting to survive a bit more margin or more competitive price is worth trading a bit more noise and a bit less DR than the very best on the market.

    Ken

    P.S. All that said, I'd really drool for a Sony m43 sensor! And pay a premium for it.
    i would doubt that its a Sony,

    perhaps momentarily against the common wisdom but I would expect it is far more likely to be Panasonic at its heart
    What we have to understand is that developing sensors is very expensive, and I think thats why the relatively short life and low volume GH1&2 cameras were so pricey. That sensor was entirely new in every aspect, size, geometry, architecture, digital converter. The GH series contribute to a particular niche that Panasonic see as around 10-15% of their business, not enough to affect economies of scale, but enough to make them worthwhile as long as you can put up the $1800 introduction pricing scale.

    I think we will find that what Olympus have been doing is choosing Panasonic sensors for which the lithography is already mapped out, that in itself is an expensive proposition, and it is likely helpful to Panasonic as it drives the volume of a particular shared sensor design up, further dividing the costs.

    However beyond that are aspects of a sensor design that can be altered. We have seen consistently that Olympus have chosen slightly different pixel measures from Panasonic, whose own fabrication process allows them to implement pixel wiring in a two metal BEOL process therefore some principle features can be changed in pipeline and wiring. We saw this with the introduction and improvements in video over the long running 12 +/- Mp sensors.

    So while the basis of a sensor can be the same to reduce costs, much of it can be customised to effect different views on the more subtle aspects of sensor design. If you saw the sensor as the heart of the imaging engine, you might find that various differences are not so difficult to implement, those of the AA filter, IR resistance, the richness or otherwise of colours on the bayer layer, the number of pipelines to push data throughput, rewiring to allow differences in exposure metering, in lifting contrast detect autofocus information. Of these things we are certain they differ both between manufacturers and generationally.

    Two features they are locked into are the fact that its a piece of silicon with 12 or 16 mill holes, and the geometry of that pixel. Panasonics unique fabrication process enables many things to be changed and that has challenged the perception of the generational differences.
    Last edited by Riley; 9th February 2012 at 20:23.

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    1. Kodak did, 5, 8 and 10MP (maybe that's the reason they went bankrupt )
    Yes, but Kodak stopped doing them in any volume. Also it begs the question too, how much volume they were getting out with just Olympus.

    2. Agree, and probably the other way around with Olympus technology.
    True. Certainly the anti-duster came from Olympus.

    - Raist

  31. #181
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    Re: OMG!

    I've always suspected that the veeeeeryyyy long life of the E-1 was because Olympus had to buy a minimum quantity of sensors and that they manufactured all the cameras in one go, leaving them with full warehouses for a long time which again delayed the introduction of the E-3.

    The E-400 was probably just a last, unsuccessful attempt from Kodak to make them stay. It's the only camera I know of where the manufacturer more or less has announced the discontinuation of the product on the launch day

  32. #182
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    Re: OMG!

    CORRECTION:

    I was wrong on "Live MOS" being a Panasonic trademark. The trademark is actually registered to Olympus in both the US and EU!

    So presumably Olympus could get a sensor from anyone and call it "Live MOS".

    Ken

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    Re: OMG!

    i was going to point that out too, but hey .... it seemed like minutia
    something else to get a grip on, micro really belongs to Olympus..

  34. #184
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I've always suspected that the veeeeeryyyy long life of the E-1 was because Olympus had to buy a minimum quantity of sensors and that they manufactured all the cameras in one go, leaving them with full warehouses for a long time which again delayed the introduction of the E-3.

    The E-400 was probably just a last, unsuccessful attempt from Kodak to make them stay. It's the only camera I know of where the manufacturer more or less has announced the discontinuation of the product on the launch day
    I dunno. I've always suspected that the very long life of the E-1 was simply because it was such a fantastic camera it took them forever to make something that actually performed better. :-)

    I was just shooting with the E-1 again last evening: it's still a nicer camera to shoot with than many other more modern cameras. If Only Olympus had put a faster data bus and a 12 Mpixel sensor in it... Oh well.
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I dunno. I've always suspected that the very long life of the E-1 was simply because it was such a fantastic camera it took them forever to make something that actually performed better. :-)

    I was just shooting with the E-1 again last evening: it's still a nicer camera to shoot with than many other more modern cameras. If Only Olympus had put a faster data bus and a 12 Mpixel sensor in it... Oh well.
    Agreed, that's the danger of throwing a great design away and starting from scratch I guess

    The strange thing about the E-1 - is how much better it feels than it looks in a web review... you just can't always tell.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Agreed, that's the danger of throwing a great design away and starting from scratch I guess

    The strange thing about the E-1 - is how much better it feels than it looks in a web review... you just can't always tell.
    Same went for the Panasonic L1.

    Frankly, I don't think you can ever tell how well a camera will work for you from a web review. I ignore web reviews entirely ... I go to them only to read the specifications and ogle pretty pictures of new gear. I only very very rarely buy anything without it being in a dealership nearby first and going to play with it a dozen times. The E-5 was one of the few I ordered sight-unseen that succeeded (I'd played with the E-3 so many times I felt knew exactly what it would feel like, and I was right). The GXR was the only other one.

  37. #187
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    Re: OMG!

    Okay okay okay okay okay.
    I'm hopeless . . . I got rid of the X100, and I haven't ordered the X10 or the X1 or the D800 or the D800e or the Pentax K-01 . . . I was beginning to feel rather smug.

    But this one is one too many for me . I've just put in a pre-order for a black OMD with the 12-50.

    And there was me thinking I'd escaped from m4/3 . . .

    It's your fault - all of you -

    But most of all it's Jorgen's fault - he's a relentless GAS bully - impossible to resist - he's even been getting at me on Facebook

    Just this guy you know
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  38. #188
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    Re: OMG!

    Slightly surprised you went for the lens Jono, have you seen any reviews?

    I'm thinking the grips and weathersealed adapter will be worth it... but then I have my 4/3res lenses to use with it.

    Will be interesting to read your thoughts on the EVF - will the fast refresh make a huge difference?

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: OMG!

    The prices are unrealistic.

    I will wait for them to come to some sensible levels. In the meantime, there will be others.

  40. #190
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I've just put in a pre-order for a black OMD with the 12-50.
    You do know that this camera just needs that lovely 12 and a 45 macro, now don't you?

    Somehow I knew that this one has your name written all over it. Mine too BTW, but happily the Dutch shops don't let me preorder that easily, so I'll have some time to figure out if this really is worthy of replacing the GH2.

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Slightly surprised you went for the lens Jono, have you seen any reviews?

    I think that lens will be good for an outdoor walk around lens, since it is weather sealed and does close ups - something we don't otherwise have in m4/3 but are spoiled with in regular 4/3.

    It is slow and undoubtedly not as sharp as the better primes (which I have), but I am adding it to my bag, too. Of course, I'd rather have a replacement for the 12-60mm, but this lens does bring some options/convenience to m4/3 that we don't currently have. And it is inexpensive as part of a kit.
    Roberto M.

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Slightly surprised you went for the lens Jono, have you seen any reviews?
    No - hadn't seen 'em. The reason I went for it was twofold:
    1. it only costs an extra 150, and I figured I could sell it for more than that if I didn't like it.
    2. It's weather-sealed

    But now I have read the write ups, I'll suspend judgement until I've tried it at working distances with working subjects (although I thought the finnish guy did a good job).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I'm thinking the grips and weathersealed adapter will be worth it... but then I have my 4/3res lenses to use with it.
    Not interested in grips etc. . . . When I get it, it'll be a fight out between the NEX7 and the OMD - a fight to the death . . . (well, a fight to ebay at least!).

    If I prefer the OMD I've got enough collateral in NEX lenses to get the ones I'd likely want:
    9-18
    45 f1.8
    12 f2
    14-150
    45 macro

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Will be interesting to read your thoughts on the EVF - will the fast refresh make a huge difference?

    Cheers

    Brian
    I kind of know what the EVF is like - the Sony one is obviously better in theory, but I've been using the Olympus one quite a bit side by side recently, and in actual real terms I don't think there is that much difference.

    We Shall See!

    Quote Originally Posted by marlof View Post
    You do know that this camera just needs that lovely 12 and a 45 macro, now don't you?

    Somehow I knew that this one has your name written all over it. Mine too BTW, but happily the Dutch shops don't let me preorder that easily, so I'll have some time to figure out if this really is worthy of replacing the GH2.
    Hi There
    I realise that it does - I've actually sold the 45 macro twice now! I'll see if I love the camera with the kit lens - if I do, then the NEX get's it - and the 12 and 45 would be top of the list.

    The pre-order situation at WEX is really good - they call you when it arrives, and if you want it they charge your credit card. If you don't they don't. So I can easily change my mind

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by pikme View Post
    I think that lens will be good for an outdoor walk around lens, since it is weather sealed and does close ups - something we don't otherwise have in m4/3 but are spoiled with in regular 4/3.

    It is slow and undoubtedly not as sharp as the better primes (which I have), but I am adding it to my bag, too. Of course, I'd rather have a replacement for the 12-60mm, but this lens does bring some options/convenience to m4/3 that we don't currently have. And it is inexpensive as part of a kit.
    HI Roberto
    Quite right - but you put it so much more eloquently than I did!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  44. #194
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    Re: OMG!

    There you see, it didn't take many days before you came to your senses

    I agree with Roberto about the lens. Probably a very nice all-weather walk-around. I will also use the 4/3 PanaLeica 14-50 for when I need a larger aperture zoom or only want to bring one lens, but the Zuiko plus the Pana 7-14 and a couple of primes should be perfect for travel.

  45. #195
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    There you see, it didn't take many days before you came to your senses
    We'll see - I'm really finding it pretty hard to criticise the NEX7, and the lack of focus peaking on the OMD is a bit of a pain - but if I like it, then I'll probably use it with AF lenses most of the time . . . If I don't like it, then I'll have wasted a relatively small amount of money on the turnaround.

    As far as the lens is concerned, I've learned to try them out myself - it's a pity that it seems to be a pale shadow of the lovely old 12-60 though.

    One of the attractions is a proper wide angle option (which really doesn't exist on the NEX).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: OMG!

    I'll be interested in the fight LOL. I have the G3 so not in any hurry to add the OM-D but have been considering the NEX 7. I can afford to sit back and see how it shakes out before doing anything.

    Diane

    [QUOTE=jonoslack;389145]

    Not interested in grips etc. . . . When I get it, it'll be a fight out between the NEX7 and the OMD - a fight to the death . . . (well, a fight to ebay at least!).

    If I prefer the OMD I've got enough collateral in NEX lenses to get the ones I'd likely want:
    9-18
    45 f1.8
    12 f2
    14-150
    45 macro

  47. #197
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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Okay okay okay okay okay.
    I'm hopeless . . . I got rid of the X100, and I haven't ordered the X10 or the X1 or the D800 or the D800e or the Pentax K-01 . . . I was beginning to feel rather smug.

    But this one is one too many for me . I've just put in a pre-order for a black OMD with the 12-50.

    And there was me thinking I'd escaped from m4/3 . . .

    It's your fault - all of you -

    But most of all it's Jorgen's fault - he's a relentless GAS bully - impossible to resist - he's even been getting at me on Facebook
    OMG - you're hopelessly condemned and beyond salvation ...
    And stop pointing at innocent people ...


    But are you sure you don't want that grip, Jono ?
    This is what WEX says:
    OM-D Free Grip with every pre-order*
    Olympus are offering every Wex Photographic customer who pre-orders the new E-M5 a FREE 2-Part Grip (SSP 229.99). To claim, just keep hold of your order confirmation email, and when you recieve your E-M5, send both the order confirmation, and your delivery reciept to Olympus. *Limited to 2 claims per household. Full terms and conditions coming soon.
    It's free ...
    Bart ...

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    Re: OMG!

    Jono, just get the grip for nothing and then sell it to me for shipping the cost, some money for the trouble and the price for a dinner for you and your wife (exclusive wines are not part of my math here though...).

    ===

    I'll definitely buy the E-M5. I'll without regrets leave the Nex sector and say Yes to weather sealing, better ergonomics and decent native lenses. I have a few pieces up for sale (or sell?) and hope some demanding Leica or Nex aficionados will bite... Me, I take mediocre images and will probably be happy with a small mediocre Panasonic sensor.

    I like the great image quality from my Nexes but, frankly, I've never had cameras getting so much in their way for me. The nearly non-existing shutter lag will be missed though.

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    OMG - you're hopelessly condemned and beyond salvation ...
    Yes, indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    And stop pointing at innocent people ...
    There's nothing innocent about Jorgen - he's a dangerous and seditious man (even if he is also good fun, charming and a fab photographer).
    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    But are you sure you don't want that grip, Jono ?
    This is what WEX says:


    It's free ...
    Well, if it's free . . . I'll sell it to Jonas and have the dinner!

    Just been in Holland for a couple of days . . . we must meet for a pint sometime, so that we can discuss Jorgen's bad character

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: OMG!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, if it's free . . . I'll sell it to Jonas and have the dinner!
    ...and a really nice dinner I hope!

    Just been in Holland for a couple of days . . . we must meet for a pint sometime, so that we can discuss Jorgen's bad character
    Meeting and drinking is good - but discussing Jorgen is better done in the open. How else should can he be able to learn and improve?

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