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Thread: Seriously!

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    Seriously!

    "I think now is a good time, for users and camera/lens manufacturers alike to take m43s seriously because ..."

    I've been thinking about this sentiment for a while now, and have longed for a full-frame mirrorless, and now realize how much it doesn't really make sense in the long run, because of added weight and size of lenses. While I know others are not on the page that's okay, that's what is great about this world, variety!
    However, if you share the same sentiment, please share a little insight about your own mileage and foresight please!

    It's fun to share after all!

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    Re: Seriously!

    Every 4/3 and m4/3 camera since the E-1 has had a sensor good enough for "serious" photography. What has been lacking with all m4/3 cameras is ergonomics and/or build quality. My GH1, an excellent camera in most ways, has been at Panasonic waiting for repair for 4 or 5 months now. They clearly aren't interested in fixing it. Unless they change their ways, I'm not buying a Panasonic camera again, except maybe cheap second-hand.

    The OM-D seems to be a new breed of m4/3 camera, and the first one that is suited for everyday use. Hopefully, Olympus know from experience that long term support is the path leading to long term success. If I was going to invest from scratch today, a combination of 4/3 and m4/3 would probably be my choice (4/3 for sports/action).

    Full frame? I do have an F6 and a Fuji GX 680, but for well over 90% of my photography, 4/3 and m4/3 is more than sufficient. My most used camera outside motor sports is the L1.

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    Re: Seriously!

    it depends. I think a larger sensor mirrorles would make sense for landscape or tripod work in general. mift is great and for a lot of stuff it is just perfect but a mirrorless with something like a d800 sensor and the ability to take most of the existing lenses would be great.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    "I think now is a good time, for users and camera/lens manufacturers alike to take m43s seriously because ..."

    I've been thinking about this sentiment for a while now, and have longed for a full-frame mirrorless, and now realize how much it doesn't really make sense in the long run, because of added weight and size of lenses.
    depends. Seen old Leica cameras? Lenses aren't that big you know. Seen a m4/3 lens as wide and as compact as the Olympus 21mm f3.5?

    For sure I agree that on longer focal lengths the smaller sensor rocks but for wides and normals? Personally I lean towards a full frame.

    Considering I have enough megapixels in my phone camera there can be no reasonable argument that the electronics for processing the images made by a full 35mm frame 8Mpix camera would need to be any larger or heavier than my OM10 is.





    nearly the same size aren't they
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    Re: Seriously!

    I would very much like a larger format mirrorless (with true electronic liveview, built in EVF and the whole works) in a compact package that does not require a Leica premium.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by simonstucki View Post
    it depends. I think a larger sensor mirrorles would make sense for landscape or tripod work in general. mift is great and for a lot of stuff it is just perfect but a mirrorless with something like a d800 sensor and the ability to take most of the existing lenses would be great.
    Maybe. If you are going to have use a tripod then I'd argue go film MF camera. You'll get far better results.

    I don't think it will be long before we see a 36mpx CSC just because the marketing departments of camera manufacturers are engaged in a sensless size war.

    LouisB

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    Re: Seriously!

    I found Micro-FourThirds quite seriously useful right out of the starting line with the G1. Just because Olympus has produced an even better body now doesn't make the G1, GH1, G2, and GH2 poor bodies.

    What's been missing until recently are fast lenses on par with the FourThirds lenses in Micro-FourThirds mount. Lenses take a lot of time to develop, it seems, bodies are easier.

    Full-frame 'mirrorless' (I really prefer the term "TTL electronic" rather than mirrorless—my M9 is mirrorless but it's certainly not TTL viewing)? Sure, there are plenty of good lenses available already. But don't expect compact. 35mm film sized sensors and their supporting circuitry take up a lot more space than a roll of 35mm film and the film transport mechanism.

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously!

    True Godfrey, but Jono's reports of the E-M5's usefulness for legacy lens use (backed up by beautiful example photos) have gotten me interested again... I've got a mint condition Hexanon 57mm f1.2 and rainbow imaging adapter on the way, and I can't wait to use it!

    The G1 was what got me immediately into m4/3rds... The E-M5 is the camera to get me interested in legacy lens shooting again.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Seriously!

    HI There
    Brian - thank you for the kind words - trying out these lenses is a lot of fun.
    Well, seems to me that the only really valid reason for a full frame mirrorless is for more 'depth of field control' . . . . I really wish people didn't use that expression - how about 'narrower depth of field', trying to make an un-emotive expression for it!

    I agree - I'd like one as well . . .. . . but but but - I don't think it invalidates m4/3 at all, rather to the contrary. From my point of view I'd like to have both:
    1. a camera with a smaller sensor and wider depth of field
    2. a camera with a larger sensor and narrower depth of field.

    The difference between m3.4 and APSc is not enough to be worth much, and nor is the difference between APSc and full frame . . . so, IMHO the perfect combination is to have two systems, one m43, (wildlife, macro, travel) and one full frame (landscape, portrait etc). Not to say that each couldn't be used for both of course.

    Now all I need is the full frame mirrorless, also with a nice R adapter, so I can use the 21-35 and the 28-90 R lenses in the same manner, but at their intended focal lengths (with a narrower depth of field).

    all the best

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    True Godfrey, but Jono's reports of the E-M5's usefulness for legacy lens use (backed up by beautiful example photos) have gotten me interested again... I've got a mint condition Hexanon 57mm f1.2 and rainbow imaging adapter on the way, and I can't wait to use it!

    The G1 was what got me immediately into m4/3rds... The E-M5 is the camera to get me interested in legacy lens shooting again.
    I don't know why you call them "legacy lenses" ... Many of the lenses I used with my G1 are current series lenses for other camera mounts. There's nothing "legacy" about them.

    The G1 was great to use with adapted lenses too. I shot with the Konica 40mm f/1.8, Cosmicar 12.5mm f/1.4, Nikkor 20mm f/3.5 AI-S, and Olympus Pen F 70mm f/2 more than I did with any Micro-FourThirds lens. I enjoyed working with it using manual focusing lenses like these, obtained results that were so much better, it's what incited me to abandon autofocus cameras and lenses for the most part.

    I also used the G1 with my FourThirds 25mm f/2.8, Summilux 25mm f/1.4, and 35mm f/3.5 Macro as well. Shouldn't come as any surprise that the E-M5 is a bit better ... it has been four years and some since the first Micro-FourThirds camera went on the block, so some development must have happened. ;-)

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ... 'depth of field control' . . . . I really wish people didn't use that expression - how about 'narrower depth of field', trying to make an un-emotive expression for it!
    I don't know about that. "Depth of field control" seems more objective and less emotive than "narrower depth of field" to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ... I'd like to have both:
    1. a camera with a smaller sensor and wider depth of field
    2. a camera with a larger sensor and narrower depth of field.
    ...
    That's why I have FourThirds, APS-C and 35mm format bodies which can share lenses back and forth between them:

    - Nikkor lenses on Nikon F
    - Nikkor, FourThirds mount lenses on E-1
    - Nikkor, Leica M mount lenses on GXR
    - Leica M mount lenses on M9, M4-2

    The only problem with this is that I *still* have a mess of lenses and bodies ...
    I'd really rather have less.

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    Re: Seriously!

    It is really amusing to note that the OM-D is considered as a revolution when Olympus are just playing catch up to the G1 introduced years ago. "Toy" cameras suddenly become "serious" and so on.

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    Re: Seriously!

    I wouldn't consider the E-M5 to be revolutionary, although the OM-D could well prove to be

    Weather seals, IBIS in video (once the firmware fix for legacy lenses arrives) and modular grips seem like pretty useful evolutionary steps, at least.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Seriously!

    Not sure about the OMD but OMG might very well be a revelation.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is really amusing to note that the OM-D is considered as a revolution when Olympus are just playing catch up to the G1 introduced years ago. "Toy" cameras suddenly become "serious" and so on.
    For me it's the excellent IBIS which tips it over the edge - you sure couldn't shoot a 400mm equivalent lens on the G1 at 1/50th handheld . . . and you sure can on the OMD - there are implications there for macro, nature shooting, birding etc . . . but then that's not really what you do, so it's not surprising your unimpressed!

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is really amusing to note that the OM-D is considered as a revolution when Olympus are just playing catch up to the G1 introduced years ago. "Toy" cameras suddenly become "serious" and so on.
    While there might not be too much difference in photographic results, my experience with Panasonic camera bodies and customer support has left them useless for any serious work. They break easily and are almost impossible to get repaired. The OM-D seems to be much more solidly built and my experience with their service organisation is mostly very positive.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    While there might not be too much difference in photographic results, my experience with Panasonic camera bodies and customer support has left them useless for any serious work. They break easily and are almost impossible to get repaired. The OM-D seems to be much more solidly built and my experience with their service organisation is mostly very positive.
    Hi Jorgen
    I quite agree - whenever I've had problems with Olympus (and we go back a long way) they've been quick and efficient - added to which, the OMD feels like a solid lump . . . brick sh1t house is the expression which springs to mind!

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Not sure about the OMD but OMG might very well be a revelation.
    OMG? Nah... it wasn't that good. Not even close to the quality of the original, one digit OM cameras


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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    While there might not be too much difference in photographic results, my experience with Panasonic camera bodies and customer support has left them useless for any serious work. They break easily and are almost impossible to get repaired. The OM-D seems to be much more solidly built and my experience with their service organisation is mostly very positive.
    Hmm. I was just working on some stuff in Lightroom and did a quick check: this is my "work in process" catalog, which has about 75,000 exposures in it. About 35-40% of those were made with Panasonic cameras (L1, G1, LX1, FZ10). Never had any failures at all. I have also been able to get spare parts (lens hoods, lens caps, etc) in a day or two from Panasonic USA.

    Of course, I only rarely have failures with any camera. The last time I had to have a camera repaired it was the Leica M4-2 body that I bought used in BGN condition and needed a viewfinder/rangefinder CLA and collimation, but the time before that was somewhere about 1996 when a Nikon 35Ti's lens jammed.

    None of my Olympus gear has ever required service, going all the way back to my OM-1n in 1976.

    But I do agree with you and Jono: when it comes to service and repair on camera gear, I'd much rather deal with Olympus than Panasonic. Olympus camera support has always been one of the best when I've needed parts or other bits. The worst I've had to deal with were Canon and Sony.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    But I do agree with you and Jono: when it comes to service and repair on camera gear, I'd much rather deal with Olympus than Panasonic. Olympus camera support has always been one of the best when I've needed parts or other bits. The worst I've had to deal with were Canon and Sony.
    Not the story told on other forums. In order to cut costs, Olympus consolidated their service to fewer (or one) location and the experience/turn around time has deteriorated.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Not the story told on other forums. In order to cut costs, Olympus consolidated their service to fewer (or one) location and the experience/turn around time has deteriorated.
    I haven't had need to call them for anything in a a couple of years now. Last I spoke with the service folks at Olympus USA was some time in 2010. To the limits of my direct experience, they've been good to work with.

    Overall, service and support across the industry has gone to crap in the past 15 years or so. I remember when I could send a Nikon to their repair facility in SoCal and have it back in hand with a perfect job done in at most five days ... and that was without a Nikon Professional Services account.

    Godfrey

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    Re: Seriously!

    Customer support will vary from country to country, but some of it also reflects the attitude of the manufacturer. While I've never had problems getting different accessories for the Panasonic cameras here, the GH1 has now spent 4 months at Panasonic without as much as a quotation for the repair. With Fuji, Nikon and Olympus, I get a quotation within 2 days and the longest repair has taken 2 weeks.

    I'm not treating my cameras nicely, but most of them have stood the test of abuse over time, except the GH1 which one day simply wouldn't power on. Compare that to my D80 which had been beaten, used in the rain numerous times, dropped etc., and when it finally developed some electronic hiccups after a rainstorm, Nikon changed the electronics and the broken top panel for less than $200 and in less than two weeks on a model that was discontinued years ago.

    And since I'm on a morning crusade against Panasonic anyway: The obvious thing to do when my GH1 stopped working would have been to buy a GH2. I do after all have 3 original Panasonic batteries for the GH1, bought for a whopping $100 a piece. Unfortunately for me, they don't use the same battery. Another alternative, the G3, use yet another battery, my L1 another one and the L10 (which I considered as a supplement to the L1) a fifth type. I can see no other reason for such a battery policy than extorting more money from the customer. Except in this case, the customer is going elsewhere (unless I buy a used Panabody to be able to get more back from my battery investment).

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Customer support will vary from country to country, but some of it also reflects the attitude of the manufacturer. While I've never had problems getting different accessories for the Panasonic cameras here, the GH1 has now spent 4 months at Panasonic without as much as a quotation for the repair. With Fuji, Nikon and Olympus, I get a quotation within 2 days and the longest repair has taken 2 weeks.

    I'm not treating my cameras nicely, but most of them have stood the test of abuse over time, except the GH1 which one day simply wouldn't power on. Compare that to my D80 which had been beaten, used in the rain numerous times, dropped etc., and when it finally developed some electronic hiccups after a rainstorm, Nikon changed the electronics and the broken top panel for less than $200 and in less than two weeks on a model that was discontinued years ago.

    And since I'm on a morning crusade against Panasonic anyway: The obvious thing to do when my GH1 stopped working would have been to buy a GH2. I do after all have 3 original Panasonic batteries for the GH1, bought for a whopping $100 a piece. Unfortunately for me, they don't use the same battery. Another alternative, the G3, use yet another battery, my L1 another one and the L10 (which I considered as a supplement to the L1) a fifth type. I can see no other reason for such a battery policy than extorting more money from the customer. Except in this case, the customer is going elsewhere (unless I buy a used Panabody to be able to get more back from my battery investment).
    Have you called them? Have you written to Panasonic corporate? Ask for the camera returned to make sure they haven't simply lost it? I certainly wouldn't sit back and wait 4 months.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Have you called them? Have you written to Panasonic corporate? Ask for the camera returned to make sure they haven't simply lost it? I certainly wouldn't sit back and wait 4 months.
    While Nikon, Canon, Olympus and Fuji all have walk-in service centres in Bangkok, Panasonic doesn't have that. The camera shop, which I visit regularly, has contacted them on numerous occasions. They tell me that my camera is not the only one. I suspect that it's a company policy. Repairing cameras doesn't generate any profit for them while selling new ones does. Most people are so used to electronic products that stop working that they simply don't care. Reputation? Nowadays, it's all about marketing.

    Many consumer printers are programmed to stop working after a certain number of prints (A message appears saying that the ink waste tank is full, and when you take it to a service centre, they tell you it's too expensive to change or that it can't be done). I wouldn't be surprised if they start doing that with cameras as well. Maybe it's already happening

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Seriously!

    Interesting reference Jorgen, thanks for that... I hate the whole idea of planned obsolescence, hope it doesn't find a place in digital camera design. I just think the Panasonic design is a bit fragile in this case, although the battery policy isn't doing them any favours.

    Good luck finding your camera/ getting it repaired.

    Brian

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    Re: Seriously!

    To say something positive about Panasonic: I liked the ergonomics and the image quality of the GH1 a lot, and I used it as a travel camera as well as for paid work. Obviously, it wasn't designed for that and I seem to remember that Panasonic at some occasion stated that it hadn't been their intention to make still cameras for professional use. I still use the L1 a lot and it's my travel camera for the time being. The L10 delivers even better image quality, as long as one stays at ISO 200 or lower, and I'm still considering one for use with the excellent 4/3 lenses. So while I hate their policies, the image quality that can be had from cameras now sold second hand for $300 or thereabouts is absolutely great

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    Re: Seriously!

    I wasn't looking for you to say something positive about Panasonic. It was more a matter of getting more aggressive about your camera sitting there for four months.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    "I think now is a good time, for users and camera/lens manufacturers alike to take m43s seriously because ..."

    I've been thinking about this sentiment for a while now, and have longed for a full-frame mirrorless, and now realize how much it doesn't really make sense in the long run, because of added weight and size of lenses. While I know others are not on the page that's okay, that's what is great about this world, variety!
    However, if you share the same sentiment, please share a little insight about your own mileage and foresight please!

    It's fun to share after all!

    Thanks
    Po
    Here is my opinion:
    If I use full frame I prefer a DSLR with optical viewfinder.
    Now for m4/3 the EVF makes perfect sense - because the optical viewfinder for that sensor size would be too small to be really usefull.
    I still believe that one can often easily see IQ-advantage of larger sensors in regards of color depth, tonality, and of course more flexibility to play with shallow DOF.
    I do browse for example regulary the Fujy x-pro image thread and also the OMD image thread - and yes, there are very good images i both threads...but talking just of IQ there are more "wowers" in ther Fuji thread (IMO).
    So for my taste I really like the OMD for the very good IQ, the speed, weatherproof, small, affordable and good lenses.
    But I still would want also one camera with a larger sensor.
    Cheers, Tom
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    Re: Seriously!

    Adding my opinion:

    1) m43 grew really out of baby age with the OMD. I like this camera, the built in EVF and the small size of even very good lenses. Limiting factors for "serious" work, where I do not want to get into anything hindering between my idea and the final photo is not so much IQ (which I think is excellent from the OMD) but size over all. In these cases I at least prefer a FF DSLR.

    2) The APSC cameras are not really better IQ wise as the OMD, I myself am also pretty underwhelmed by the highly praised Fuji X1 Pro and I also find that all other APSC DSLRs are kind of too bulky to bring the real compactness advantage of the OMD and IQ difference to the OMD is virtually non existent any longer. On the other side they are not large enough so they can fulfill my demands for good operability - see 1)

    3) For real demanding work my D800E with it's lovely 100% OVF and some selected glass will be my main tool. For the moments when I really need to nail the shot and need high resolution. It might replace finally my H3D39 but not sure yet about this and I am also keeping my foot in the MFD door, as I know Hasselblad is coming with some great news for next Photokina.

    For the moment I am happy with OMD and D800E, each for it's own purpose.

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    Re: Seriously!

    For me and my working style the E-5 or any other cam in this "size" category, APS-C of FF cams, were always obstacles between me and the subject. My work is often steered by close contact to get into dramatic views or effects without having the backgrounds compressed like when using telelenses. So the small OM-D is the perfect machine for me, beside my little E-P3. And i am so happy that both uses the same lenses . I am close to the action, Thanx Olympus !!
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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Adding my opinion:


    2) The APSC cameras are not really better IQ wise as the OMD, I myself am also pretty underwhelmed by the highly praised Fuji X1 Pro and I also find that all other APSC DSLRs are kind of too bulky to bring the real compactness advantage of the OMD and IQ difference to the OMD is virtually non existent any longer.
    Interesting but after shooting the two camera side by side on my trip, there is a visible difference between the two files.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Interesting but after shooting the two camera side by side on my trip, there is a visible difference between the two files.
    Yes - I'd agree - there is a difference- but of course, you're comparing Fuji Primes against m4/3 zooms? How does the comparison go when you use a lens like the 60 R elmarit?

    I guess the $10000 question is:

    Does the improved IQ of the Fuji more than make up for the improved ImageContent possible using zoom lenses on the OMD?

    .... and what about the shooting experience?

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Seriously!

    Terry, I did ask on that other forum about your impressions of the kit lens image quality on the E-M5?

    I think I'll be using the ZD 14-54mm mk II with the E-M5 + grips.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Seriously!

    Joergen:

    Fully agree with you on Pana's battery policy. They are, presumably, the #1 battery makers in the world.

    When they did manipulations to disable 3rd party batteries on G1, they showed their real colors.

    On repairs: They will have to replace the entire board (the only one) in GH-1 to fix the problem. Cheaper for them to send you a new GH-1 or better make you buy a new camera. Sony is in the similar league. A broken NEX-5N gets a repair cost quote higher than the current (new) prices, albeit very quickly. Making the choices very clear.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Don't get me started on Sony customer abuse

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yes - I'd agree - there is a difference- but of course, you're comparing Fuji Primes against m4/3 zooms? How does the comparison go when you use a lens like the 60 R elmarit?

    I guess the $10000 question is:

    Does the improved IQ of the Fuji more than make up for the improved ImageContent possible using zoom lenses on the OMD?

    .... and what about the shooting experience?

    all the best
    Well, I took both on my trip so that should pretty much answer the question about IQ vs image content. However, on both my series of poppies and my Palouse shots I got comments from people that looked at both that they preferred the look from my Fuji.

    I haven't used the 60 macro on the Fuji yet.

    Personally, I like shooting the Fuji, I like the controls, I like the aperture on the lens, I like the info layout in the EVF.

    But bottom line I have both and they compliment each other. It would be cool to have one as FF and the other as m4/3 but that hasn't happened and for me the Fuji does better than the M9.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Well, I took both on my trip so that should pretty much answer the question about IQ vs image content. However, on both my series of poppies and my Palouse shots I got comments from people that looked at both that they preferred the look from my Fuji.

    I haven't used the 60 macro on the Fuji yet.

    Personally, I like shooting the Fuji, I like the controls, I like the aperture on the lens, I like the info layout in the EVF.

    But bottom line I have both and they compliment each other. It would be cool to have one as FF and the other as m4/3 but that hasn't happened and for me the Fuji does better than the M9.
    Do you feel you are faster with x-pro than with the M9?

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Terry, I did ask on that other forum about your impressions of the kit lens image quality on the E-M5?

    I think I'll be using the ZD 14-54mm mk II with the E-M5 + grips.

    Cheers

    Brian
    I just sold the 14-54mm. Shipped yesterday .
    Compared to the kit lens the focus is very slow.
    The extra 2mm from 14-12 is pretty useful. The fact that the lens is pretty slow (aperture) is not.
    From an IQ perspective I haven't pixel peeped the lens. I haven't printed super huge and what I've shot so far, image content will trump absolute resolution.

    I also have the 12-35x on order. My plan is to keep the 12-35, 35-100 combo along with the 12-50. My current gap between 50 and 100 was actually pretty noticeable on this trip. (I had 7-14, 12-50, 100-300) I'm hoping the 35-100 will also allow for an as of yet - not even in the rumor mill, teleconverter.
    terry
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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Do you feel you are faster with x-pro than with the M9?
    Depending on the situation, yes Fuji faster than M9 (I only owned M8). The M9 is great, but I'm not tempted. So, I don't spend time thinking about the IQ differences.

    I'm pretty content right now.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Depending on the situation, yes Fuji faster than M9 (I only owned M8). The M9 is great, but I'm not tempted. So, I don't spend time thinking about the IQ differences.

    I'm pretty content right now.
    From what we see in the Fuji image thread it doesnt look like there is any reason to think about IQ-it just looks very good to me.

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    Re: Seriously!

    Sold my GX1, and in a few days now, I will know if I'm in the OMD club!
    Let's see what all the fuss is about!
    Last edited by pophoto; 25th June 2012 at 19:18.
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