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Thread: State of mFT today

  1. #51
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ... you guys are talking me back into loving my m43rds system... it is definitely a love/hate thing with me...

    Hi There
    It seems you're using the panasonic bodies exclusively - might I suggest that you beg/borrow/steal/rent and OMD - just for a few days - it might solve your problem?

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    It seems you're using the panasonic bodies exclusively - might I suggest that you beg/borrow/steal/rent and OMD - just for a few days - it might solve your problem?
    Agree. I will say up until now I've always preferred the Panasonic bodies by far but the OM-D looks to be a winner... No pun intended.
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I've been thinking quite a bit about this as well...
    . . . snip . ..
    If and when the day comes that there is a larger format system that can match the size and lens system maturity of our current MFT system, then what will be left for MFTs? Size. If some day there can be a Sony NEX full frame camera with a 90mm f/2 lens the size of a current Oly 45/1.8, then there's no reason the Oly lens can't be made even smaller. For me the bottom line is that today's MFTs system meets my image quality and versatility threshold, and the more they can shrink the lenses while continuing to meet that standard, the better.
    So nicely put Amin
    4/3 sensors are already 'good enough' and the lens system is already in existence.
    Job Done!

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Honestly as far as native mirrorless systems there's Micro 4/3 and nothing else really. Sony has a lot of great bodies/ sensors but really not many great lenses. Fuji has great lenses and a great bodies (even if slightly quirky) but it's just a limited system still. Samsung is mostly non-existent. Canon EOS-M is in it's infancy. Nikon took a half hearted approach with the 1 line so not to cannibalize dSLR sales.

    I've personally looked at all the other mirrorless options and pretty much everything leads back to Micro 4/3. Yes you can adapt and that's what I do for my NEX stuff but as far as a complete mirror less system there's Micro 4/3 and nothing else... yet.

    I'm probably going to get rid of my Sony Alpha soon as I don't see much advantage anymore. Yes FF is better and I have my M for that but for zooms I want something on the small side so I will probably pick up an OM-D since I still have the G1.
    Hi There
    It's what I did (sold the Sony kit) Sadly, because it was really good.
    These days I have the Leica stuff (for my FF small DOF penchant) and a couple of OMD bodies and some lenses for the rest.

    It makes a grand combination, and it's hard to see how someone is going to supersede it very soon (it's not quick to build up a good lens system). I have to say that, from a system point of view, I feel pretty settled, possibly for the first time since the beginnings of digital.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    >I have to say that, from a system point of view, I feel pretty settled, possibly for the first time since the beginnings of digital.

    Same here, even if we use GH2/GH3 (want video and stills). The only camera that adds to is is the X-Pro1. Here I will test the 18-55mm zoom. But as a system m43 rocks.
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    It's what I did (sold the Sony kit) Sadly, because it was really good.
    These days I have the Leica stuff (for my FF small DOF penchant) and a couple of OMD bodies and some lenses for the rest.

    It makes a grand combination, and it's hard to see how someone is going to supersede it very soon (it's not quick to build up a good lens system).
    Yeah I really like the results of the Sony kit but I hate the size of the lenses. I've gotten more accustomed to having the M and it takes care of 90% of what I do with a camera now (once I get my MM then I imagine that the 35 Cron will be a body cap for the MM and the 50 Lux for the M9-P.) The OM-D would certainly be sufficient for telephoto from the results I've seen especially with the Panasonic X lenses. That being said the Sony G 70-200/2.8 is an impressive lens in quality and size (for me.) Selling the kit will certainly pay for an OM-D kit and then some as I still have my G1.
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Yeah I really like the results of the Sony kit but I hate the size of the lenses. I've gotten more accustomed to having the M and it takes care of 90% of what I do with a camera now (once I get my MM then I imagine that the 35 Cron will be a body cap for the MM and the 50 Lux for the M9-P.) The OM-D would certainly be sufficient for telephoto from the results I've seen especially with the Panasonic X lenses. That being said the Sony G 70-200/2.8 is an impressive lens in quality and size (for me.) Selling the kit will certainly pay for an OM-D kit and then some as I still have my G1.
    Looks like Panasonic is developing a 150mm f/2.8.

    Maybe we are finally getting some very good native m4/3's telephoto lenses.

    -Bill

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa View Post
    because you say so, that's a good argument...
    Okay, I am sorry but you are simply the worst type of pixel peeper. You take a tiny piece of information and expand it into a misleading grand conclusion that is directly at odds with real world results.

    This comment "and 7 bit raw files

    oh, well... 1 out of 8 sensels is indeed encoded using 11 bit, but 7 out of 8 are 7 bit encoding...

    Sony Imaging almost always was able to screw Sony Semi sensors"

    is just nonsense and could be misleading to anyone that has not shot with Sony cameras.

    Then your later claim that P&S cameras produce robust files?

    What is the point of these types of comments?

    I am at a loss to understand the reason you would make such posts but I am too busy to spend any time trying.

    Best Wishes,

    Bill

    Fashion Meets Fighting

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  9. #59
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    One of the fascinating sides of m4/3 is that I can take an E-PL5, with the same excellent sensor as the OM-D and a tilting LCD as well, add the 12mm f/2.0, the 20mm f/1.7 and the 45mm f/1.8, all excellent lenses and the whole packaging weighing less than 700g and costing less than $2,500 (Yes, that's less than the RX-1, both figures). Already at this stage, the image quality is good enough for almost any use I can think of, but in a pocketable package...
    If I had to pick 1 camera and two lenses for the rest of my life, this would be it:


    DSC_2168 by Amin Sabet, on Flickr

    Total weight: 440 grams. Total cost: about $1000.
    Last edited by Amin; 2nd January 2013 at 20:52.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Regarding the legacy lens support, why hasn't the m43 camp used focus peaking? I suppose it's not a technical reason, but rather about patent cost or something. Has any m43 exec said anything officially?

    I'm torn between buying into m43 and NEX and wish there was a format that combined their best aspects.
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    Regarding the legacy lens support, why hasn't the m43 camp used focus peaking? I suppose it's not a technical reason, but rather about patent cost or something. Has any m43 exec said anything officially?

    I'm torn between buying into m43 and NEX and wish there was a format that combined their best aspects.
    Some manager from Panasonic said in connection with the launch of the GH3 that is was a question of programming resources, and that they simply didn't have enough people available before the launch. That might be an excuse though. Maybe the real reason is that they want to sell their own AF lenses rather than making the cameras easier to use with lenses that they won't make a dime on. The situation is somewhat different for Sony, since they can't offer the same wide range of lenses that Panalympus have available.

    It is apparently fixable with a firmware update.
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    Regarding the legacy lens support, why hasn't the m43 camp used focus peaking? I suppose it's not a technical reason, but rather about patent cost or something. Has any m43 exec said anything officially?

    I'm torn between buying into m43 and NEX and wish there was a format that combined their best aspects.
    I was torn as well, and tried both. Believe me - for longer focal length lenses and manual focus, the IBIS on the OMD far far outweighs the focus peaking on the NEX as a focus aid - much as I like focus peaking.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I was torn as well, and tried both. Believe me - for longer focal length lenses and manual focus, the IBIS on the OMD far far outweighs the focus peaking on the NEX as a focus aid - much as I like focus peaking.
    You can use one of the art filters to do focus peaking on the OMD. Here are the steps:

    1) Change the mode dial on the E-M5 to "A"

    2) Menu > Shooting Menu 1: set the "Picture Mode" to "ART 11 Key Line" (press right and choose Filter II). You may need to repeat this step twice to get the art filter setting to stick.

    3) Optional step if you want magnified view during focus peaking: Menu > Shooting Menu 1 > Set "Digital Tele-converter" to "On"

    4) Menu > Shooting Menu 1: select "Reset/Myset", then select "Myset1" and choose "Set"

    5) Menu > Custom Menu B: select "Button Function", then select "Fn1 Function" and choose "My1"

    6) Menu > Shooting Menu 1: set the "Picture Mode" to "Natural" (or whatever you started out with)

    7) Menu > Shooting Menu 1 > Set "Digital Tele-converter" back to "Off" if you set it to "On" in Step 3 above

    At this point, you'll have the "Key Line" art filter, which acts like a form of focus peaking, assigned to the Fn1 button. You can hold down the button while focusing for a kind of "on demand" focus peaking and then release the button before you shoot so that the art filter doesn't affect the captured image itself.

    Quick video showing the steps to configure: Focus Peaking on Olympus OM-D E-M5 - YouTube
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Amin,

    Awesome.
    Does something like that also work in the E-P2?
    Thanks.

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Amin, thanks for the heads up
    To see where you're autofocus is actually aiming at, the author added this:
    one thing I would like to add, if you also switch to MF before setting the myset then the focus peaking works well for AF lenses as well
    How cool is that !

    All the best.
    Bart ...
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Thanks Amin, I've tried the keyline filter approach you've described above and there's a bit of a delay when switching it on/off, plus writing the raw file with embedded art filtered jpeg slows down a bit.

    I'm finding it quicker to use the magnifier option, attached to Fn2... with stabilisation to assist manual focusing it works really well.

    Cheers

    Brian
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    Re: State of mFT today

    played around with this a bit as I was quite intrigued. Preliminary conclusion is that it doesn't give better AF or MF accuracy than using the standard magnified view when the subject is quite clear. In general both methods have been fine but the old fashioned one has a slight edge so far. However, when the subject is obscured, the light is generally bad, contrast low or image shaking even when stabilised using a telephoto (AF is usually accurate anyway and MF easy if not using a longer telephoto) then the peaking can be most helpful.

    I simply change to Art filter 11 on the left dial without altering any other settings, in other words RAW only. The actual image doesn't change at all this way and you simply use the filter for focus peaking. If you need a JPEG chimp then follow one of the varying suggestions on other forums -- can't say I entirely follow all of them....


    This was posted on the UK Oly user's forum some time ago
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Amin,

    Awesome.
    Does something like that also work in the E-P2?
    Thanks.

    With best regards, K-H.
    Hi K-H, I don't know. If the E-P2 had a firmware update to use the Key Line Art Filter, then it should work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Amin, thanks for the heads up
    To see where you're autofocus is actually aiming at, the author added this:
    Nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Thanks Amin, I've tried the keyline filter approach you've described above and there's a bit of a delay when switching it on/off, plus writing the raw file with embedded art filtered jpeg slows down a bit.
    If you use the method I listed and release the Fn1 button before shooting, you can shoot RAW only without the JPEG (the Art filter is only engaged while the button is held down).

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I'm finding it quicker to use the magnifier option, attached to Fn2... with stabilisation to assist manual focusing it works really well.
    Good to have options .

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    [I]played around with this a bit as I was quite intrigued. Preliminary conclusion is that it doesn't give better AF or MF accuracy than using the standard magnified view when the subject is quite clear. In general both methods have been fine but the old fashioned one has a slight edge so far. However, when the subject is obscured, the light is generally bad, contrast low or image shaking even when stabilised using a telephoto (AF is usually accurate anyway and MF easy if not using a longer telephoto) then the peaking can be most helpful.
    I pretty much feel the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    This was posted on the UK Oly user's forum some time ago
    Yes, it was widely covered a while back, but after Jono's post about wanting focus peaking on the E-M5, I thought he and some others may not have seen it back then.
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    Re: State of mFT today

    I was wondering why nobody has started on the following threads?
    - SLR Magic 35mm f1.4
    - Olympus Epm2
    I just bought the 35/1.4 and will have it soon and also bought an Epm2 and will collect it on Monday.

    Since this thread is about the state, then these 2 new items does add a lot to the state of m43 I would think.

    They add high performance at affordable prices.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    It seems you're using the panasonic bodies exclusively - might I suggest that you beg/borrow/steal/rent and OMD - just for a few days - it might solve your problem?
    Jono, interesting advice.

    Is the Olympus body 100% compatible with all Panasonic lenses? I thought I read somewhere about some features on Panasonic lenses not working as well with Olympus bodies?

    LouisB

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    Re: State of mFT today

    LouisB: I dunno about 100% compatibility, but I use my PanLeica 25 and 45 most of the time, and sometimes the pancake 20 on my OMD. This is despite having the Oly 12 and 45 which everyone raves about!
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Jono, interesting advice.

    Is the Olympus body 100% compatible with all Panasonic lenses? I thought I read somewhere about some features on Panasonic lenses not working as well with Olympus bodies?

    LouisB
    I''ve got several lenses, but my two most used are the 20mm on one body and the 14mm on another. Both are E-M5s. I haven't had any issues.

    On the general state on m43s, I don't think I have anything to say that hasn't been written here already, but to be brief. I picked up my first one in March when they were just released and been shooting it for about 9 months now. I like it more now than when I bought it. Picked up a second body 2-3 months ago. The lenses are small and great, the kit is small and light and results are fantastic. I've sold all my SLR gear now. There isn't another camera on the market now that I'd trade my E-M5 for.
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    If I had to pick 1 camera and two lenses for the rest of my life, this would be it:


    DSC_2168 by Amin Sabet, on Flickr

    Total weight: 440 grams. Total cost: about $1000.
    So are you assuming that your life will be over in just a few days?? ;-) Technology changes that fast currently that I would be rather careful with that kind of (absolute) statement.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    I would hate to limit myself to one camera + 2 lenses for the rest of my life. I'm looking forward to some step change improvements in ergonomics, performance and image quality to come.

    Kind regards

    Brian

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    You can use one of the art filters to do focus peaking on the OMD. Here are the steps:

    1) Change the mode dial on the E-M5 to "A"

    2) Menu > Shooting Menu 1: set the "Picture Mode" to "ART 11 Key Line" (press right and choose Filter II). You may need to repeat this step twice to get the art filter setting to stick.

    3) Optional step if you want magnified view during focus peaking: Menu > Shooting Menu 1 > Set "Digital Tele-converter" to "On"

    4) Menu > Shooting Menu 1: select "Reset/Myset", then select "Myset1" and choose "Set"

    5) Menu > Custom Menu B: select "Button Function", then select "Fn1 Function" and choose "My1"

    6) Menu > Shooting Menu 1: set the "Picture Mode" to "Natural" (or whatever you started out with)

    7) Menu > Shooting Menu 1 > Set "Digital Tele-converter" back to "Off" if you set it to "On" in Step 3 above

    At this point, you'll have the "Key Line" art filter, which acts like a form of focus peaking, assigned to the Fn1 button. You can hold down the button while focusing for a kind of "on demand" focus peaking and then release the button before you shoot so that the art filter doesn't affect the captured image itself.

    Quick video showing the steps to configure: Focus Peaking on Olympus OM-D E-M5 - YouTube

    AMIN,

    Again many thanks.
    Now that I have my OM-D E-M5, I had no problem setting up my camera according to these instructions.
    I have the following questions though:

    • Can one also choose the magnification factor? If so, how?
    • Can one also choose the peaking color? If so, how?

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Right now, m43 hits the sweet spot for me for general SLR-type photography. That's as opposed to rangefinder, which area the Leica M's fulfill for me. Professionally I mostly use Canon, as they have the superb 17 and 24mm TSE lenses.

    In prints, the extra quality from the full frame cameras rarely makes a difference over m43 images.

    When carrying the cameras, especially with a range of lenses, the difference between m43 and FF is huge, and APSC is unfortunately much closer to FF than m43. The NEX cameras are fine if you can live with one or two lenses of modest focal range, but lose their size advantage as soon as you demand something more.

    Depending on where I'm going I carry 2 m43 bodies and the 7-14, 12-35, 35-100 and 100-300 along with maybe the 20 or 25/0.95 all in one Domke 803 bag. A Nikon or Canon FF camera with 2 moderate lenses will also fully fill the bag. Alternatively, I can also use the 7-14, 14-45 and 45-200 with the 12, 20 and 45 providing speed. This also fits in the 803, and provides for somewhat different situations while being lighter.

    As has been noted, the biggest downside to m43 cameras is the very poor focus tracking performance. If I need that, I still use an SLR with mirror and prism.

    The main thing is that the m43 system allows me to take a very flexible system with me easily, without having to compromise lens selection due to size and weight, and I always take the best pictures with the camera and lens I have with me.

    Those days when I go out with only a 35 or 50 for street shooting, the M9 with a Summilux is a much better choice (or possibly an RX1; I haven't yet tried one), but it and I fare poorly when I am on vacation in Africa and I wish to take a frame filling shot of a lion.

    The OM-D is now a camera that has reached a certain 'good enough' level. There will be many advances, but for me at present the OM-D with a decent lens has reached a certain Goldilocks stage.

    If some company comes up with a multilayer sensor that doesn't have all the negatives of the Foveon sensor but retains the good points, has a decent system behind it and a reasonable price, I might go for it. Hopefully, it will be an m43 format.

    Henning
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    Re: State of mFT today

    My E-P1 and the camera I replaced it with.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    If the rumors about a BSI (back side illuminated) sensor in the "Kodak S1" made by JK imaging products come true, it will certainly shake things up a bit.

    I am following that with interest.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    As much as I liked the M4/3 system, I did not want to deal with the 2x cropfactor anymore. Just sold the 45/1.8
    At this stage I am at 1,5 x and I hope it soon to be 1:1, as long I can use MF lenses on it.
    (sorry, but it is a hobby of mine to use "old glass")

    michiel

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    Re: State of mFT today

    ... and from time to time i think i have to leave the party ....
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by kweide View Post
    ... and from time to time i think i have to leave the party ....
    Don't worry there are partys everywhere...

  32. #82
    Member jnewell's Avatar
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Jono, interesting advice.

    Is the Olympus body 100% compatible with all Panasonic lenses? I thought I read somewhere about some features on Panasonic lenses not working as well with Olympus bodies?

    LouisB
    I have used a variety of O and P lenses on a GX1, G5 and OM-D and have not noticed any issues at all. (I don't own the 20/1.7 so I can't comment on the 'chattering' issue with that lens. IIRC, Pansonic bodies correct for LCAs in-camera, but Olympus bodies don't, but I think that's the only design/spec issue between the two branches of the m4/3 family.

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Excellent summary. I'd add -

    1. I was initially disappointed by the CAF performance of both Olympus and Panasonic bodies, but even shooting pictures of crew races the SAF performance of the latest generation of bodies is so good that as a practical matter I don't feel handicapped.

    2. I think the G5 is almost at the level of the OM-D in terms of image quality, and as far as I can tell from looking at pictures online and reading user reports, the GH3 seems to have essentially reached the level of the OM-D. I think the next generation of bodies from Olympus and Panasonic are going to make it really clear that for almost any purpose m4/3 is a very good choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by henningw View Post
    Right now, m43 hits the sweet spot for me for general SLR-type photography. That's as opposed to rangefinder, which area the Leica M's fulfill for me. Professionally I mostly use Canon, as they have the superb 17 and 24mm TSE lenses.

    In prints, the extra quality from the full frame cameras rarely makes a difference over m43 images.

    When carrying the cameras, especially with a range of lenses, the difference between m43 and FF is huge, and APSC is unfortunately much closer to FF than m43. The NEX cameras are fine if you can live with one or two lenses of modest focal range, but lose their size advantage as soon as you demand something more.

    Depending on where I'm going I carry 2 m43 bodies and the 7-14, 12-35, 35-100 and 100-300 along with maybe the 20 or 25/0.95 all in one Domke 803 bag. A Nikon or Canon FF camera with 2 moderate lenses will also fully fill the bag. Alternatively, I can also use the 7-14, 14-45 and 45-200 with the 12, 20 and 45 providing speed. This also fits in the 803, and provides for somewhat different situations while being lighter.

    As has been noted, the biggest downside to m43 cameras is the very poor focus tracking performance. If I need that, I still use an SLR with mirror and prism.

    The main thing is that the m43 system allows me to take a very flexible system with me easily, without having to compromise lens selection due to size and weight, and I always take the best pictures with the camera and lens I have with me.

    Those days when I go out with only a 35 or 50 for street shooting, the M9 with a Summilux is a much better choice (or possibly an RX1; I haven't yet tried one), but it and I fare poorly when I am on vacation in Africa and I wish to take a frame filling shot of a lion.

    The OM-D is now a camera that has reached a certain 'good enough' level. There will be many advances, but for me at present the OM-D with a decent lens has reached a certain Goldilocks stage.

    If some company comes up with a multilayer sensor that doesn't have all the negatives of the Foveon sensor but retains the good points, has a decent system behind it and a reasonable price, I might go for it. Hopefully, it will be an m43 format.

    Henning
    http://www.newellj.smugmug.com
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    Re: State of mFT today

    I suppose if I knew what mft was I might care, but I don't, so I don't.

    - Leigh

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    I suppose if I knew what mft was I might care, but I don't, so I don't.

    - Leigh
    mFT = Micro Four-Thirds = M4/3.

    I remember once when a co-worker boasted to me that her husband had just become an MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional). Though I knew she was referring to this status, I asked (innocently), "Oh, you mean he's a Male Chauvinist Pig?" Dont'cha just love acronyms?
    Best regards,
    John.
    http://jburnett.ca
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  36. #86
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    I suppose if I knew what mft was I might care, but I don't, so I don't.

    - Leigh
    It's worse than that, Leigh. We're talking about mFT CSCs.

    LouisB
    -----
    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Unfortunately, the internet resembles an explosion in an acronym factory.

    But I don't understand the tie-in with Computer Sciences Corporation.

    Thanks.

    - Leigh
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  38. #88
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Acronym Definition
    CSC Computer Sciences Corporation
    CSC Co-Secant
    CSC Coastal Services Center
    CSC Contract(ing) Services Company/Corporation
    CSC Civil Service Commission
    CSC Card Security Code (credit cards)
    CSC Correctional Service of Canada
    CSC Chadron State College
    CSC Customer Service Center
    CSC Child Study Center (various universities)
    CSC Children's Services Council (Florida)
    CSC Cour Suprême du Canada (Supreme Court of Canada)
    CSC California Service Center
    CSC Cosecant (trigonometry)
    CSC Criminal Sexual Conduct
    CSC Customer Support Center
    CSC Canadian Securities Course (Canadian Securities Institute)
    CSC Content Security and Control (Cisco)
    CSC International Convention for Safe Containers
    CSC Construction Specifications Canada
    CSC Confédération des Syndicats Chrétiens
    CSC comp.std.c++ (newsgroups, usenet)
    CSC Civil Service Club (Singapore)
    CSC Command and Staff College
    CSC Computer Science Course (education)
    CSC Convention for Safe Containers
    CSC Canadian Society of Cinematographers
    CSC Career Service Center
    CSC Connecticut Siting Council
    CSC Carrier Supporting Carrier (Cisco)
    CSC Civil Service College (Singapore)
    CSC Canadian Society for Chemistry
    CSC Computer Security Center
    CSC Campaign for Safe Cosmetics
    CSC Client/Server Computing
    CSC Campbell Scientific (Canada) Corporation
    CSC Commission de Sécurité des Consommateurs
    CSC Carnegie Science Center
    CSC Code of Student Conduct
    CSC China Steel Corporation (Kaohsiung, Taiwan)
    CSC Computer Science Conference
    CSC Convention on Supplementary Compensation (nuclear agreement)
    CSC California Strawberry Commission
    CSC Conspicuous Service Cross (New York state)
    CSC Computer Service Center (AMSEC)
    CSC Church of Scientology of California
    CSC Centre for Social Cohesion (think tank; UK)
    CSC Cornering Stability Control (BMW)
    CSC Contactless Smart Card
    CSC Computer Software Component
    CSC Central Serous Chorioretinopathy (visual impairment)
    CSC Computer Software Configuration
    CSC Certified Service Center
    CSC Common Service Centre (India)
    CSC Client Service Center
    CSC Congregation of the Holy Cross (religious order)
    CSC Contemporary Security Canada (Toronto, Ontario, Canada)
    CSC Commonwealth Science Council
    CSC Construction Safety Council
    CSC Chinatown Service Center
    CSC Computer Services Corporation (various locations)
    CSC Comprehensive Skills Certificate
    CSC Customer Self Care
    CSC Case Study Committee
    CSC Computing Services Centre (University of Malta)
    CSC Command and Staff Course
    CSC community support center (US DoD)
    CSC Convoy Support Center
    CSC Common Signaling Channel
    CSC Certified Sous Chef
    CSC Cop Shoot Cop (defunct band)
    CSC Central Security Control (US Air Force, Security Forces)
    CSC Corps Support Command
    CSC Combat Support Company
    CSC California State College
    CSC Center for Scientific Creation
    CSC Client Support Center
    CSC Certified Security Consultant
    CSC Commercial Space Center (NASA)
    CSC Customer Service Consultant
    CSC Container Service Charge (shipping)
    CSC Connaître les Syndromes Cérébelleux
    CSC Carrier's Carrier
    CSC Convertible Static Compensator
    CSC Child Study Centre (Ottawa University, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada)
    CSC Congolese Trade Union Congress (Republic of the Congo)
    CSC Centre for the Study of Conflict (University of Ulster)
    CSC Certified Senior Consultant
    CSC Commission Scolaire de la Capitale (French)
    CSC Customer Supply Center
    CSC Crazy Sexy Cool
    CSC Coffee, Sugar, Cocoa
    CSC Concurrent Supercomputing Consortium
    CSC Conseil Supérieur Consultatif (French)
    CSC combat support center (US DoD)
    CSC Command & Staff College
    CSC Communications Systems Center
    CSC Computer Systems Command
    CSC Center of Scientific Computing (Finnish Center for High-Performance Computing and Networking)
    CSC Cultural Survival Canada
    CSC Chinese Shao-Lin Center (Kung Fu school)
    CSC Cost and Schedule Control (DoD)
    CSC Chicago Symphony Chorus
    CSC Current Source Code
    CSC Conical Shaped Charge
    CSC Cell Site Controller
    CSC Creative Systems Corporation
    CSC Cryonics Society of Canada
    CSC Chinese Students Club (Columbia University)
    CSC Certified School Counselor
    CSC Correspondent Services Corporation
    CSC Chevron Science Center (University of Pittsburgh)
    CSC Command Senior Chief
    CSC Citizens to Save California
    CSC Cincinnati Service Center
    CSC Current Source Converter
    CSC Channel Service Committee
    CSC Coastal Surveillance Center
    CSC Controlled Series Capacitor
    CSC Centre Street Church (Canada)
    CSC Computational Sensors Corporation
    CSC Circuit Switching Center
    CSC COSPAS/SARSAT Council
    CSC Center for Surface Combat
    CSC Cryptologic Support Center
    CSC Club Sport Cartaginés (soccer, Costa Rica)
    CSC Camillian Social Center (Rayong, Thailand)
    CSC Computer Software College (India)
    CSC Cost Sensitive Classification
    CSC Clock Switch Card (Cisco)
    CSC Computer Sciences Canada, Ltd.
    CSC Central Site Controller (PCS)
    CSC Certificate of Substantial Completion
    CSC Congregation of the Sisters of Charity
    CSC Contingency Support Center (NASA)
    CSC Chief Culinary Specialist (US Navy)
    CSC Coastal Sea Control
    CSC Connecticut Surety Company
    CSC Communication System Control
    CSC Conservation Supply Curve
    CSC Concurrent Small C
    CSC Cosmo Scientific Consultant
    CSC Conventional Systems Committee (DAB)
    CSC Cherry Semiconductor Corporation
    CSC Co-Site Constraint
    CSC Crime and Safety Committee
    CSC creeping line single-unit coordinated (US DoD)
    CSC Computer Security Coordinator
    CSC Convention for Safety Containers
    CSC Call Signalling Channel
    CSC Center Staff Chaplain
    CSC Configuration Status Control
    CSC Conventional Selection Combining
    CSC Combat System Coordinator
    CSC Control Signaling Code (ITU-T)
    CSC Criticality Safety Committee
    CSC Centre de Soudage et de Contrôle (French)
    CSC Core Support Capability
    CSC Chief Commissaryman (Naval Rating)
    CSC Canteen Service Company (vending machines)
    CSC Central Switching Controller (PCS)
    CSC Car Seal Closed
    CSC Chagossian Social Committee
    CSC Coalition for Smart Competition
    CSC Custer Sportsmen's Club
    CSC Coalition of Spirit-Filled Churches, Inc.
    CSC Context Specific Collaboration
    CSC Change Schedule Chart
    CSC Clan Southern Comfort
    CSC Commodity Software Change
    CSC Codemasters Software Company Ltd.
    CSC California Sheep Commission
    CSC Civilian Support Center
    CSC Combat System Console
    CSC Chinese Society of Cryptography
    CSC Christian Service Charities, Inc.
    CSC Curriculum Service Canada
    CSC Cell Star Corp
    CSC Computer Setups and Consulting
    CSC Canadian Somali Congress
    CSC commander in chief’s (CINC’s) Strategic Concept (US DoD)
    CSC Civilian Supervisors Course
    CSC Command Status and Control Register
    CSC Comprehensive Science Catalog (US Geological Survey)
    CSC Contaminated Soil Cleanup (air quality/environment)
    CSC Circular Scattering Cluster
    CSC Central Sign Council (Greenfield, WI)
    CSC Crime Scene Coordinator
    CSC Combined Synchronization Cell
    CSC Colorado Springs Cablevision
    CSC Control Systems Converter
    CSC Cut & Sew Complete (S&S Furniture)
    CSC Cable Spreader Chamber
    CSC Command/Community Support Center
    CSC Computer Set Control
    CSC Child Support Collector
    CSC Customer Systems Certification
    CSC Central Station Control
    CSC Cadet Squadron Commander (Civil Air Patrol)
    CSC Captain Sea Cadets
    CSC Chesapeake Systems Consultants (Marietta, GA)
    CSC Comparative Science of Cultures
    CSC Calgary Science Centre (Canada)
    CSC Cardinia Shire Council (Australia)
    CSC Cost Sharing Contract
    CSC Club Subaquatique de Caen (French underwater club)
    CSC Congrégation de Sainte-Croix (French: Congregation of Holy Cross)
    CSC Corporate Service Corps
    CSC Convention sur la Sécurité des Conteneurs (French: Convention on the Safety of Containers)
    CSC Carl Sandburg College (Galesburg, Illinois)
    CSC Capture et la Séquestration du Co2 (French: Capture and CO2 Sequestration)
    CSC Cardiac Science Corporation (Lake Forest, CA)
    CSC Compiègne Sports Cyclistes (French: Compiègne Sports Cycling; Compiègne, France)
    CSC Confidential Security Corporation (Peoria, IL)
    CSC Caluire Sporting Club (France)
    CSC Collaborative Supply Chain (logistics)
    CSC Charleston Stage Company (Charleston, WV)
    CSC Claude Spanghero Communication (France)
    CSC Castleton State College (Castleton, Vermont)
    CSC Centre Social et Culturel (French: Social and Cultural Center)
    CSC Comm South Companies, Inc. (Dallas, TX)
    CSC Cisco Systems Capital (computing)
    CSC Cocker Spaniel Club (dogs)
    CSC Capture et Stockage du Carbone (French: Carbon Capture and Storage)
    CSC Community Services Committee (various organizations)
    CSC Car Styling Club (France)
    CSC Comité Supérieur de Contrôle (French: Superior Control Committee; Belgium)
    CSC Cahier Spécial des Charges (French: Special Contract Specifications; Belgium)
    CSC Ciba Specialty Chemicals (Basel, Switzerland)
    CSC Charles Schwab Corporation (financial holding company)
    CSC Client Server Communication (computing)
    CSC Centre de Recherche Scientifique et Technique en Soudage et Contrôle (French: Center for Scientific and Technical Research in Welding and Control)
    CSC Club Sportif Cosnois (French sports club)
    CSC Center for Sex and Culture
    CSC Cyngor Sir Ceredigion (UK)
    CSC Compact System Camera
    CSC Continental Silver Club (car club; France)

    Ah, here we go: Compact System Camera (CSC)

  39. #89
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    Unfortunately, the internet resembles an explosion in an acronym factory.

    - Leigh

    It's indeed problematic, particularly when the acronym is used instead of finding or using words that can actually be understood by people.

    Take ATM. While most people in the world will understand what an ATM is, few outside English speaking countries know that it stands for the inedible, 7 syllable Automated Teller Machine. This, in spite of the fact that in some European countries, it's called a Minibank, as fast to say as the acronym and consisting of two internationally recognised words. The world is indeed a strange place

    And why then isn't a Minibar called a SADS, or Semi Automated Drink Storage?
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 25th January 2013 at 17:49.

  40. #90
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: State of mFT today

    glad we are so off topic :-)
    Uwe Steinmueller
    -------------------

    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com
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  41. #91
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    glad we are so off topic :-)
    Oh, but it's very on topic. There's an ATM next to the entrance of my camera pusher, and I frequently have to go out to use it when I unexpectedly find an item in the shop that I can't live without.
    Plastic money is not popular among Thailand's camera retailers, since it chips a sizable chunk off of their relatively slim profit margins.

  42. #92
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by kds315 View Post
    So are you assuming that your life will be over in just a few days?? ;-) Technology changes that fast currently that I would be rather careful with that kind of (absolute) statement.
    I took Amin's statement to be simply that were he forced
    to choose NOW, that is what he'd do. And I'd think that
    such a condition would tend to make cost less important,
    since it has that period to be allocated over.

    Now, with all the enthusiasm expressed for the OM-D E-M5,
    I'm curious as to why Amin chose another m43 body (which I'm
    guessing, from context --see nothing obvious on body...--,
    is the Oly E-PL5) ?

    - - - - -

    It was noted above that even if 35mm FF cameras can be reduced
    in size/weight, then so too, further, m43. To this, though, I'll
    counter that one's hands stay the same size : there is "small
    enough" and maybe --IMO-- "too (dang) small for comfort".
    So, one might wonder if a reduction of FF pushes into some
    reasonably ideal range of handling, and but for spies wanting
    cameras fit into a corsage or something, there would be nothing
    to being smaller, for the photographer.

    Sort of against this comes a similar consideration that if the
    m43 sensors are putting out such IQ as is roughly equal for
    many purposes, why ... pay more for what might only be
    distinguishable in pixel-peeping contests? (I mean, heck,
    if folks are watching videos on phones & tablets, ... !!)

    - - - - - -

    One of my thoughts about Nikon was that with APS-C & FF,
    one could --with FF lenses-- get a sort of expanded focal range
    by swapping between bodies : regular & cropped, i.e.. (I recall
    meeting a fellow shooting for Smithsonian(?) who at the time
    had his wide (14-24) on a D300 (=>21-36) and telephoto on
    the D3 (Sigma 100-300?); to this, reversing lenses he could
    have a wider range; so, ... 14-24 / 21-36, 100-300 / 150-450.)
    Something similar using two m43 bodies needs an extra two
    lenses. (But costing/weighing it out, m43 maybe wins?)

    -drofnad

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    Re: State of mFT today

    Brian[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    This thread has turned out much better than I expected. The thoughtful views have been most enjoyable reading.

    Here's what I like about mFT (Mind you, I'll be speaking mostly about the Lumix side of the equation as I have very little experience with Olympus).

    1. (Like most people here) The size. In the digital age I was pretty much chagrined by the hefty offerings that seemed like people were hauling an albatross around their necks. I made the plunge into the realm with Leica's Digilux 2 feeling that digital at that time had achieved parity with film. That camera was bulky but not nearly as bulky as DSLRs. Then I saw the Lumix G1. A camera that was small but not too small. But with a thickness (the main part of the body not the grip that's often erroneously included in these measurements) that seemed no thicker than the Leica M6! I was sold. The GF1 and others also had a remarkable form (as well as the Olympus' digital homage to their 35mm Pens and now the OM).

    2. The EVF. While there's certainly a love-hate relationship amongst aficionados I am one who loved it IMMEDIATELY. Coming off the experience with the Digilux 2's very 'grainy' EVF (which I thought was pretty cool despite what others felt) the EVF of the G1 was a quantum leap. Did I miss an OVF? A little. But the EVF gave me the equivalent of an HUD that fighter pilots enjoyed with all sorts of information and grids that could be super imposed (or not) over the image providing what I felt was a complete command center while engaged in shooting. Today we're seeing EVF's with resolution and clarity that make the original one I saw in the G1 seem absolutely pre-historic.

    3. CDAF. At first the ugly step-sister to PDAF but now fully into it's own. It's blazingly fast. And deadly accurate. And, except in the most extreme low light circumstances is for the most part on a par with the best of PDAF in terms of speed and accuracy. (And for videographers a godsent as the preferred means of AF while filming.)

    5. A growing line of lenses and then some. Okay, the original lens I got, the ridiculously slow 14-45mm (28-90mm equiv.) zoom kinda sucked. But then Panasonic unleashed the 20mm f1.7. Then a Leica 45 Macro and a Leica 25mm f1.4. Then a 7-14mm f4 (nearly as good as the Oly FT version). And the 14-140 video monster. Then for big game hunters the 100-300mm f4. And now again copying Olympus FT optics offering two fixed f2.8's zooms: a 12-35mm and 35-100mm. Meanwhile Olympus has upped the ante with some nice jaw-dropping m-offerings of their own: the 12mm f2, 17mm f1.8 (which is a better focal length IMHO than Pany's middling 20mm f1.7), THEIR 45mm f1.8 Macro and their luscious 75mm f1.8 (a wow if ever there was one). And if that wasn't enough, mFT opened the floodgates for EVERYONE ELSES's optics from Nikon to Canon to Zeiss to Leica to Tamron to Samyang to Sigma to... And while these are mostly MF lenses the close-up patch borrowed from Digilux 2 days seems to work rather well as the overwhelming evidence on various threads in this section can attest. (Next step: Peaking.)

    6. IQ. Initially not too shabby but steadily improving ever since. Olympus and Panasonic seem to have realized that 16 MP is certainly plenty for a good 300 DPI image in a coffee table book or a magazine spread. And every gallery. And with each iteration the one weakness, high ISO noise, has been their focus (pun intended). The OM-D with (I think) Sony's (mostly likely EXMOR like) sensor has been performing impressively at ISO 3200. And there's no reason to think that the GH3 with it's waterproof, full metal MG++ jacket wouldn't be the same. I don't know about you but with Oly's new faster optics and the new sensors I see a grand slam for most situations besides sports and extreme low light PI work with spousal indiscretions. Video, which is not something I'm into, has similarly seen advances that, for the most part, put mFT first on most short lists.

    7. Body design. While I mentioned size initially there is a lot to be said for the thoughtful body designs of these creatures. Panasonic and Olympus seem to have struck a right balance of software driven features as well as good old mechanical layouts. A blend of good intuitive menus as well as a careful offering of essential (and apparently preferred by most) buttons and dials and their placement. Realizing that touch screen success in smartphones would have certain advantages (with the right software) in a camera and incorporating them is nothing short of genius. Finally a word or two about camera noise. From the very beginning I've really liked the low-pitched shluck of the G1 and everything after that has been just as non-attention grabbing. Initial reports of the totally silent shutter of the GH3 seem to be a mixed bag. But I'm certain that any issues will be worked out with a minor improvement in the firmware.

    Do I find anything to fault?

    Probably the two things that any camera with a larger sensor can offer: (1) shallow depth of field. This is simply a matter of physics. And there's nothing you can do about it although SLR Magic's 0.95 lenses can certainly bring you closer. But I've also experimented with the Brenizer method (as Tessalator has as well) which, if you don't mind the extra work of taking and stitching a number of smaller files together, allows you to achieve results that no larger frame sensor could give you (unless of course it's also being used in a Brenizer context) because the lens equivalents simply don't exist (a 28mm f0.8????). And (2) better low light performance. This clearly has come a long way (although I still tend to shoot at ISO 100-360 out of habit) but with others shooting quasars at ISO 12600 it's hard not to be a little envious. (Of course, if low light shooting is your raison d'être for image making you probably wouldn't be using this system anyway! )




    (Note there are others but these two are the most glaring.)

    So for my money, I really like how far mFT has come, where it's at and if past performance is any indication of future possibilities...where it's going.

    Size: I loved that Digilux2 and today the m43 gives a much better interpretation of the EVF than that. But the look and feel was so practical.

    The EVF: Aww you are exaggerating, the G1 was a fabulous benchmark with ample magnification, much better than those really small optical DSLR versions of the lower grade models from Canikon.

    Lens range: Don't forget using c-mount lenses and almost anything, maybe even a coke bottle...LOL

    Design: The G3 like a baby SLR and the Oly Pen were the first m43, I remembered having to queue to buy my Pen, design was desirable.

    AF: CDAF on my Epm2 is Fab and even on my old Ep2 with lenses like the 45/1.8 are as fast as I feel is needed, for my predominantly portrait work.

    DOF: solution 1. Use the SpeedBooster and gain one f-stop back out of 2 stop loss, in terms of DOF.
    Solution 2: the Brenizer method, To me if you are going to photoshop stitch you might as well just use gausian blur and overlay one blur over one sharp and selective reveal the blur. It's not as easy and neither is the Brenizer method, but it can produce the same look of wide angle shallow DOF.

    IQ: IQ was bad 10 years ago. IQ 5 years ago had improved so much and was already very good. m43 from the start had good IQ. It's just that with digital we can pixel peek to the microscopic level that we can determine otherwise. Shoot an image with a 5 year old dslr and compare that with todays camera side by side and if you dont read the exif, or pixel peek, it's hard to tell the difference.

    The Future: Yea, fully agree, I ditched the DSLR since my Oly Pen Ep first version and never looked back. Did I miss anything? Not for what I shoot, which is glamour models.... stream here.
    SLR Magic 35mm f1.4 on Olympus Epm2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    But overall, m43 is matured and practically compact. The only system that offers 5 f0.95 lenses from SLR Magic to Voigt, and with the Speedbooster, the look and feel of full frame images is almost within reach. I think we are in an age where technology gains will not improve image quality a quantum leap anymore, we do not need to buy the latest camera and rush to buy it because of small increments in image quality (like Foveon technology). It's so tough to be working for Nikon or Canon as the shelf life of a new camera is about as long as a banana. But since I love technology I do hope m43 continue to provide inspirational new innovations as it's a format that delivers great results. When Pro's adopted 35mm in the old days, they were laughed at as medium format was the only thing acceptable. But what happened to MF? It lost it's flavour to the smaller format. m43 is the new 35mm.
    Last edited by paparazzi666; 29th January 2013 at 04:58.

  44. #94
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by paparazzi666 View Post
    ... as the shelf life of a new camera is about as long as a banana.

    Love this

  45. #95
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    OMD-M5 or E-PL5

    I edged into this area in a backwards way. I have a Leica M(240) on order, likely to arrive in summer 2013, and I picked up the VF2 electronic viewfinder a few months ago during crazy Christmas sales at a tiny fraction of the Leica price. I had to convince a Leica salesman that I could tolerate the inferior aesthetics of a viewfinder that didn't say Leica in an elegant script, but I managed to steel myself and do that. But what good is a viewfinder with no camera? I wanted to see if I would like using it with medium telephotos, so one thing led to another. Now I have the E-PL5, 45/1.8 and longer stuff. I find it is a whole different way of seeing and lots of fun to boot.

    Now that I am comfortable with the not-watertight, somewhat harder to control E-PL5, I would like to know if there have been careful comparisons between the two (three, really, but the PM2 is too stripped down for me to find interestng) models. Are the images really the same, is the stabilization and AF the same, how important do people find the menu-based ("live list!!") controls of the E-PL5 compared with the larger number of thumbwheels on the OMD? It's painful to translate the (online) manual of the E-PL5 into logic, so I haven't dared to wrestle with the manual of the OMD. Have others?

    Sean Reid and Carl Weese have each told me they can see the effect of the admittedly weak AA filter that Olympus uses in its M5 gear, by comparing with other cameras. Does it bother anyone?

    scott
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  46. #96
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Cannot comment on the IQ from the EPL5, but what I do not like about it is that it has no built in EVF and also lacks the new 5-axis IBIS, which I personally found more than excellent!

    I would not care so much about weather-sealing, as most m43 lenses are not weather sealed anyway, but the EM5 for me is the perfect camera for everyday shooting.

    I also do have a M on order, but more and more I am thinking if I really need this, as the EM5 and m43 meanwhile gives me almost perfect results and a perfect system for my needs.

    Anyway if the VF2 brought you into m43 then you should be happy about that

  47. #97
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    Re: State of mFT today

    I now have an E-P2, OM-D E-M5, and an M240 on pre-order.
    Love the progress in 5-axis vs 2-axis IBIS.
    What got me interested in m4/3 gear was the Fun with OMD thread in this forum.
    The real reason I got the OMD though was to see how a good IBIS camera gets along with my Leica lenses.
    I also like the extra reach of my APO 280/4 with the crop factor of 2.

    Thanks to everybody for the great pictures in that thread.

    Best, K-H.

  48. #98
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by paparazzi666 View Post
    the shelf life of a new camera is about as long as a banana.
    That being the case, the question inevitably arises: will it blend? Fortunately, there is an answer: Will It Blend? - New Olympus Cameras Get Mixed by Blendtec - YouTube
    http://www.newellj.smugmug.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  49. #99
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    Re: State of mFT today

    [QUOTE=biglouis;
    Is the Olympus body 100% compatible with all Panasonic lenses? I thought I read somewhere about some features on Panasonic lenses not working as well with Olympus bodies?

    LouisB[/QUOTE]

    There is are some reported issues with the 7-14 Panasonic on Olympus bodies concerning distortion correction, but nothing that can't be handled in PP. I use Panasonic bodies but have tried Olympus lenses without any issues. A friend uses Panasonic lenses on his Olympus without any problems.

  50. #100
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    Re: State of mFT today

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Acronym Definition
    CS................
    Ah, here we go: Compact System Camera (CSC)
    You missed Completely Silly Concept

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