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Thread: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

  1. #8401
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by neilvan View Post
    Thanks Larry, I just did a full uninstall of PS and Topaz stuff, re-installed everything and there they are...fixed. I suspect it was PS creating the problem as I have done several uninstalls/reinstalls of Topaz recently to no avail. It's working now though, yay!
    Glad you got it sorted. Now you can see what we are talking about.

    Larry

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by leuallen View Post
    Glad you got it sorted. Now you can see what we are talking about.

    Larry
    I have seen what is being talked about, they were working just fine as stand-alone applications. Admittedly, I rarely use noise reduction as I almost always shoot at base ISO with my Olympus cameras. I do use it with my Nikon cameras though and it does work well for sure... Using Neat Image is kind of automatic for me (15 years or use). My final determination for any application comes from prints, it's very difficult to see any difference between Neat Image and Topaz on a 16"x20" so far but time will tell... Maybe I'll have to try ISO400 with my E-M1.2.

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    Re: 20,000 ISO on m43... THIS IS NUTZ!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by leuallen View Post
    Stellar results. Seems we are on to something with Sharpen AI and Denoise AI. Now the question becomes which came first the chicken or the egg. Do we denoise first and then sharpen or vice versa. Will sharpening mess up denoise results and increase grain or will Denoise AI not work as well on a sharpened image. Inquiring minds want to know. Too tired now to test.

    Larry

    Always denoise first, Larry.
    Sharpening first will only sharpen and exagerate the noise.
    You've probably noticed that with Sharpen AI the "Stabilize" setting provides the most sharpening... but you need to look closely at the edges of your image, such as the edges of a moon shot, as too high a setting will introduce crunchy artifacts that may not be seen in the center of the image.

    The "Sharpen" setting provides the most "realistic" results if the image is not too soft, though it won't restore sharpness in a soft image as "Stabilize" will.

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by neilvan View Post
    I have seen what is being talked about, they were working just fine as stand-alone applications. Admittedly, I rarely use noise reduction as I almost always shoot at base ISO with my Olympus cameras. I do use it with my Nikon cameras though and it does work well for sure... Using Neat Image is kind of automatic for me (15 years or use). My final determination for any application comes from prints, it's very difficult to see any difference between Neat Image and Topaz on a 16"x20" so far but time will tell... Maybe I'll have to try ISO400 with my E-M1.2.
    I am working with 4/3 ISO 6400 files so I use it frequently and it makes a difference.

    Larry
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    Re: 20,000 ISO on m43... THIS IS NUTZ!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolibri View Post
    Always denoise first, Larry.
    Sharpening first will only sharpen and exagerate the noise.
    You've probably noticed that with Sharpen AI the "Stabilize" setting provides the most sharpening... but you need to look closely at the edges of your image, such as the edges of a moon shot, as too high a setting will introduce crunchy artifacts that may not be seen in the center of the image.

    The "Sharpen" setting provides the most "realistic" results if the image is not too soft, though it won't restore sharpness in a soft image as "Stabilize" will.
    Thanks. As I thought, denoise first.

    I generally try all three mode if it is an important image. I have found the best mode is different for each image. Sometime Stabilize, others Sharpen, or maybe Focus. I have rescued some images that were in pretty bad shape. Almost like magic. Like you were at that point in time again and you can retake the picture with better focus or hold it more stabil,

    Larry

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Some random recents...


    Pair of Rowers
    by Jason Hindle, on Flickr

    ISO 80 is more useful/usable than you think...


    The Ever Changing City
    by Jason Hindle, on Flickr

    A favourite boozer (from a play with Olympus Workspace)...


    The Salisbury
    by Jason Hindle, on Flickr

    Finally.... Finally.... I got my much neglected FL-36 out and started playing with Flash. I’ve decided this is the year of flash (and the tripod also). This photo I think represents the point where I started to get my head around some of the white balance challenges.


    Knocking Off Time
    by Jason Hindle, on Flickr

    Apologies if that leaves you tempted to grab into the photo.
    Likes 9 Member(s) liked this post

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    GX8 with Zuiko 12mm f/2 @ f/4


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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    A happy holiday to you all from a very perplexed Easter Bunny .

    Last edited by Elderly; 18th April 2019 at 23:30.
    Ian.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    I was initially very optimistic about Denoise AI. But my testing was limited. I have found some glitches upon further testing.

    I have been playing with it. On 4/3 photos at 6400 ISO. So a good test.

    Ran a batch process on 7 files taken within minutes of each other. Performer on stage with changing colored lights.

    Had to crank the noise slider up to 100 because in some images high contrast edges showed patches of background that were not denoised. At default setting these patches were larger and became smaller as the noise slider was increased. Did not see much change to the rest of the image as the slider was increased. So I went with 100. May not work with all files.

    Some images showed the problem and others not a trace. Go figure, they were taken within seconds of each other.

    If the image is important here are the fixes for the artifacts. For the patches of the image which showed the original grain structure, high contrast edges and very bright areas, I lassoed the area and used a Gaussian blur. About .6 on up till it looked natural. The best technique was to lasso the area, hide the marching ants, then Gaussian blur with a higher value. Immediately following the blur or it will not work, use the Fade command. Move the Fade slider until it looks good.

    Another artifact is in certain areas of fairly uniform tonality I could see faint vertical banding with slight discolorization. The cure is to create a blank layer above the stack and to use the clone stamp at low opacity. Select the source with a value that matches what the banding should be. If the banding is predominately lighter, which it was in my case, set the clone layer to Darken and the brush to Darken.

    I batch process the file using Scripts->Image Processor. I don't think Image Processor come with PS. I believe it is a Russel Brown program. It works great.

    Create a script to use with the Image Processor. Starting with just opened file, start recording. Create a dup layer and make it active. Open the Denoise AI filter. Make what adjustment needed. Close the file and end the action. Start Image Processor and set parameters to your liking. I had is save a tiff file to a folder it created under the folder containing the original images.

    The above was all in PS. Now go to LR. You will see the new folder but it will be empty. Select the new folder and right click and select synchronize. Now the images are in LR and you can work on them

    This may seem like a lot of work and it sort of is. But the results are superior to most any other program especially for noisy 4/3 images. Where it shines is that even with drastic noise reduction you do not get that watercolor effect on areas such as skin.

    This is a new program and does not have the refinements of other Topaz programs such as presets and the values used are not sticky. But that will come with upgrades. They may even solve the problem of blotchy areas which are not processed and the banding.

    Larry

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    I found an issue similar to the one you described, Larry. I dealt with it by using a softening brush over the small area where the problem emerged, prior to running the image through DeNoise AI.
    Remember that when Sharpen AI was first released there were grid patterns present in some parts of a file that couldn't be dealt with. This was reported to Topaz and dealt with inside of a week... so I'm more than confident that any glitches we find at the onset will be dealt with and resolved by Topaz in an expeditious manner.
    I took a different approach to yours in my testing. In my efforts to find any shortcomings I maxed out the iso setting on my OMD EM5 Mk2 and underexposed the image by up to one stop. So in my recent tests I was shooting at an iso between 40,000 and 53,000 iso. The File information is attached below, followed by the original 25,600 iso image. Unfortunately the File Information window doesn't show that the image was underexposed, raising the effective iso.
    The original shot is then followed by the shot after being run through DeNoise AI followed by Sharpen AI. The results are interesting... to say the least:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Interesting. I don't think I'd ever use ISO that high. If I can get good results from 6400 ISO I would be happy.

    What do you mean use a softening brush? A slight Gaussian blur seems to work well but on some images there were lots of highlight areas that needed work.

    The image below is from the set mentioned above. It is scaled to about 100% Note that the background is pretty noise free while there is some noise on the face. I like my images to have the bite that noise provides in the skin areas so I masked the layer and with a low opacity brush brought back some of the grain in the face.

    As an aside. This was shot with the 75mm 1.8 wide open at about 1/160 sec with an E-M1X. Shot at the local American Legion who often hosts musical events. They are very informal in a bar like area so I can wander around and get close without disturbing anyone. The lighting and backgrounds are not very good which is a challenge. Therefore I tend to shoot tight to eliminate the background. This shoot happened to be on a little stage area which was not to bad. Lots of fun and I get some great pictures from it. I am impressed by the sharpness of that lens.

    Larry
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by leuallen View Post
    Interesting. I don't think I'd ever use ISO that high. If I can get good results from 6400 ISO I would be happy.

    What do you mean use a softening brush? A slight Gaussian blur seems to work well but on some images there were lots of highlight areas that needed work.

    The image below is from the set mentioned above. It is scaled to about 100% Note that the background is pretty noise free while there is some noise on the face. I like my images to have the bite that noise provides in the skin areas so I masked the layer and with a low opacity brush brought back some of the grain in the face.

    As an aside. This was shot with the 75mm 1.8 wide open at about 1/160 sec with an E-M1X. Shot at the local American Legion who often hosts musical events. They are very informal in a bar like area so I can wander around and get close without disturbing anyone. The lighting and backgrounds are not very good which is a challenge. Therefore I tend to shoot tight to eliminate the background. This shoot happened to be on a little stage area which was not to bad. Lots of fun and I get some great pictures from it. I am impressed by the sharpness of that lens.

    Larry
    I'd probably never use an iso that high either, Larry.

    The point of the test was to discover the limitations of the program. If I had found 25,600 iso images unusable I would have then run tests at 12,800, and on down until I found the results usable. What this test showed is that with the addition of a little noise from the PS noise filter this image could be printed successfully and no one would ever know it was shot between 40K and 53K iso.

    The softening brush is one of the brushes available in Apple's old Aperture program. I still use Aperture as it works today as well as before it was discontinued. My Nik and Topaz plugins work seamlessly with it as well.

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    The title of this thread is:

    'Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread '

    As interesting and important as these technical discussions about de-noising are,
    I'm not sure that they belong in 'Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread ';
    I've always considered this thread predominently a place for ............... images .
    Such as that great shot of Larry's taken in the American Legion.

    I realise that de-noising can be important to Micro Four Thirds users in particular,
    so wouldn't this discussion be more appropriately placed in its own dedicated thread in 'Four Thirds Cameras'?
    Or maybe for more general viewing, in the 'Digital Image Processing Forum' ?

    I have to state my prejudice here: I am too lazy and incapable to do much post processing
    and so it's not my personal idea of fun .
    Ian.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    I realise that de-noising can be important to Micro Four Thirds users in particular,
    so wouldn't this discussion be more appropriately placed in its own dedicated thread in 'Four Thirds Cameras'?
    Or maybe for more general viewing, in the 'Digital Image Processing Forum' ?
    Let me agree and disagree with you

    I agree this denoise discussion doesn't belong here really.

    But denoising is as important for any sensor format, maybe just needed at slightly higher iso's as the sensor size grows. So why not post this discussion in the Image Processing forum? That's where brand and sensor size agnostic discussions like these belong in my mind.
    My Pics
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Let me agree and disagree with you

    I agree this denoise discussion doesn't belong here really.

    But denoising is as important for any sensor format, maybe just needed at slightly higher iso's as the sensor size grows. So why not post this discussion in the Image Processing forum? That's where brand and sensor size agnostic discussions like these belong in my mind.
    Let me agree with you ....... and agree with you

    The last line of mine in your quote of my post suggests the Image Processing Forum as an alternative place .
    Ian.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    The last line of mine in your quote of my post suggests the Image Processing Forum as an alternative place .
    Thanks Ian

    Note to self: don't react to a post:
    1. before morning coffee
    2. before reading it all
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Happy Birthday Jorgen I hope I have the right date?

    I realise that six candles are not quite a sufficient number for you today ...
    .... but, I thought that this image is fun
    and the children were very noisy !!!
    Last edited by Elderly; 20th April 2019 at 00:23.
    Ian.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    I fully agree with a previous poster that this thread is about fun with 4/3rds images an hence any boring stuff like denoising does definitely not belong here.

    There are plenty of other threads these things can be posted or discussed!
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    Happy Birthday Jorgen I hope I have the right date?

    I realise that six candles are not quite a sufficient number for you today ...
    .... but, I thought that this image is fun
    and the children were very noisy !!!
    Thank you Ian. How on earth did you know?

    After I removed my birth date from FB, hardly anybody sends gratulations anymore. Says something about what those electronic crutches do with us, doesn't it

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    The title of this thread is:

    'Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread '

    As interesting and important as these technical discussions about de-noising are,
    I'm not sure that they belong in 'Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread ';
    I've always considered this thread predominently a place for ............... images .
    Such as that great shot of Larry's taken in the American Legion.

    I realise that de-noising can be important to Micro Four Thirds users in particular,
    so wouldn't this discussion be more appropriately placed in its own dedicated thread in 'Four Thirds Cameras'?
    Or maybe for more general viewing, in the 'Digital Image Processing Forum' ?

    I have to state my prejudice here: I am too lazy and incapable to do much post processing
    and so it's not my personal idea of fun .
    I fully agree, Ian. I wasn't aware of the Digital Imaging Processing Forum or I would have posted this topic there. Apologies.
    How do we get it moved?
    I was only thinking that the main complaint I read about the m43 format are the poor high iso results. By placing the topic here it would help those who need to shoot at higher iso, such as birding photographers.

    On the other hand, I have posted images showing how noise is mitigated by this software at iso's as high as 40,000 so that aspect of the topic does conform to the parameters of an "image thread."

    But yes, this topic should be moved.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Thank you Ian. How on earth did you know?

    After I removed my birth date from FB, hardly anybody sends gratulations anymore. Says something about what those electronic crutches do with us, doesn't it
    I've never been a member of FB, but iirc you posted it on this forum (hoping for birthday presents of some of the many cameras that you say you are very interested in and will buy next year?
    Ian.

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    I've never been a member of FB, but iirc you posted it on this forum (hoping for birthday presents of some of the many cameras that you say you are very interested in and will buy next year?
    Ah... the Habelsad that nobody gives me

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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Some of the smaller creatures in the Sea of Cortez, OMD EM5 Mk2, two strobes, 60 macro for all but the Medusa (12-40PRO), all taken free diving.

    Juvenile King Angelfish (about 5" long):

    Name:  _5152403.jpg
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    Balloonfish (about 7" long):

    Name:  _A190321.jpg
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    Cortez Barnacle Blenny (2" long):

    Name:  _3260099.jpg
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    Red-head Yellow Striped Goby (1.5' long)

    Name:  _5142266.jpg
Views: 259
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    Brown-cheek Blennies fighting (2" long):

    Name:  _5253199.jpg
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    1" Jellyfish followed by a tiny, unidentified fish:

    Name:  _B020170.jpg
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Algarve light....




    Regards, Alan.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Here's one of thos occasions where a fully articulated LCD is a huge advantage. My arm is all stretched out through a kind of fence and the LCD more or less 90 degrees to the camera body. Face detection isn't among the best with the GX8, but it worked fine here in spite of the dim light inside the tunnel.

    GX8 with Pana 25mm f/1.7 @ f/2.2


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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    GX8 with Samyang 50mm f/1.2


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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    GX8 with Samyang 50mm f/1.2

    Typisch SKF Lager
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Cross post from the "Tree" thread...




    Regards, Alan.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    GX8 with Pana 100-300mm II @ 300mm and f/5.6


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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Surf's up....


    Famara Beach
    by Jason Hindle, on Flickr
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Seville...




    Regards, Alan.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanS View Post
    Seville …

    Excellent tonality!
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    There is something about having a wander around a none touristy Spanish city during Siesta. It won’t last, I suspect. The very pleasant Arrecife is just a short bus ride (or three hour walk, along the coast, as I desperately need the exercise) from two of Lanzarote’s three major resorts. And it has slowly been developing its own tourism.


    Siesta
    by Jason Hindle, on Flickr
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    GM5 with Pana 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 II @ 42mm and f/7.1


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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    GX8 with Pana 100-300mm II @ 300mm and f/5.6


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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    GX8 with Pana 100-300mm II @ 300mm and f/8


  37. #8437
    Senior Member Elderly's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    I went to the Sony World Photography Awards exhibition yesterday.
    I didn't think that it lived up to previous years;
    there was an ARTificiality about so many of the images and I wasn't sure about the quality of the printing.
    There were however some stunning images among the huge number displayed.

    In each room there was a Sony monitor showing a long running but rapidly changing slide show of many many of the categories in that paricular and other random rooms, interspersed with hard to comprehend (during their short duration) captions.
    The monitors were set up with a large degree of 'pop', which made the actual prints lack impact.



    -

    Ian.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    I went to the Sony World Photography Awards exhibition yesterday.
    I didn't think that it lived up to previous years;
    there was an ARTificiality about so many of the images and I wasn't sure about the quality of the printing.
    There were however some stunning images among the huge number displayed.

    In each room there was a Sony monitor showing a long running but rapidly changing slide show of many many of the categories in that paricular and other random rooms, interspersed with hard to comprehend (during their short duration) captions.
    The monitors were set up with a large degree of 'pop', which made the actual prints lack impact.
    Oh dear. That's surely a real schoolboy error in the photography world.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    I went to the Sony World Photography Awards exhibition yesterday.
    I didn't think that it lived up to previous years;
    there was an ARTificiality about so many of the images and I wasn't sure about the quality of the printing.
    There were however some stunning images among the huge number displayed.

    In each room there was a Sony monitor showing a long running but rapidly changing slide show of many many of the categories in that paricular and other random rooms, interspersed with hard to comprehend (during their short duration) captions.
    The monitors were set up with a large degree of 'pop', which made the actual prints lack impact.
    Additive colours versus subtractive... they would never look the same even if they knew what they were doing.

  40. #8440
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Additive colours versus subtractive... they would never look the same even if they knew what they were doing.
    You are right, our colour perception of images from a reflective source and an emissive source are always going to be different,
    but in this case (and I should have been more explicit in my original post) the differences were exaggerated by the 'TV showroom' settings of the monitors and what I objectively perceived as many of the prints (all made by the same company?) appearing to me, a little faded.

    Anyway - to keep this thread on topic as this discussion is not 'fun' - I'm going to post a relevant 'image' ,
    an image that is not a keeper, as in the split second I had to act, the hand moved to mask more of the camera phone and I made the wrong decision to focus on the sign



    Ian.
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  41. #8441
    Senior Member AlanS's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Visited Locomotion at Shildon the other day (https://www.locomotion.org.uk) just random shots that caught my eye...














    Regards, Alan.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    ^ Beautiful Alan
    thorkil
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    A few more...














    Regards, Alan.
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  44. #8444
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanS View Post








    Lovely shapes, colours, composition and rendering !
    Ian.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Great shots of the locomotion event Alan. When I was younger I used to do maintenance, fire and drive steam trains at a museum line in the eastern part of the Netherlands. Every time I see those kind of details it brings back those good memories, so thanks for sharing.


    Something different from me, still old, but a few alleys in Breda that caught my eye this morning


    Horses for courses



    Funnel alley


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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Thanks Pieter, I think all of us "older" generation have a soft spot for railways, especially steam! (plenty of the younger ones do too, my Grandaughter loved it!).
    Regards, Alan.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Locomotion, Shildon....



    Red!





    ORANGE!
    Regards, Alan.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Alan, I love the style of the photos you have posted lately, the clean, simple look. Very inspirational

  49. #8449
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    Thank's very much Jorgen, I am continually trying to simplify my compositions as I have a habit of being drawn to complex scenes that are difficult to interpret! Perhaps it is a sign I am making progress?
    Regards, Alan.
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    Re: Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

    I had some real fun with the "pass down" PEN E-P3 I got some time ago, I bought some adapters (OM Zuiko and Leica M) and today I used the latter with my 1958 M-Summicron 50/2 "Dual Range" so I could focus to 45 cm.

    On May 1 there is always a vintage car rally in town, so that provided the subject matter


    1: Bird in flight



    2: Porsche



    3: Spare wheel hub



    4: Stealth bomber



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