Fun with 4/3rds cameras/ Image Thread

[neilvan]

I thought with these modern cameras and lenses, there was no need to turn off the IS anymore. Also, wouldn't the IBIS compensate? I remember this being an issue with the first gen of VR/IS lenses.

Joel

Hi Joel - Can we still call the 90-250mm a modern lens?

Anyway, it's probably just an old habit of mine that I haven't quite got over, however, in my experience, turning IS off increases my keeper-rate. It does say in the manual [page 53] to turn it off for lenses that aren't Four Thirds or m4/3 lenses. My tripod/head combo for this kit is VERY solid, definitely no stabilization needed. I do leave it with my monopod/gimbal though...

Same thing with my VR lenses for my Nikon kit...my keeper-rate goes down considerably if I leave it on with my 300mm f4 PF.

 

[scho]

Lower Enfield Falls. E-M1X 12-100, HHHRes mode, Sharpened in Topaz Sharpen AI.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Hi Joel - Can we still call the 90-250mm a modern lens?

Anyway, it's probably just an old habit of mine that I haven't quite got over, however, in my experience, turning IS off increases my keeper-rate. It does say in the manual [page 53] to turn it off for lenses that aren't Four Thirds or m4/3 lenses. My tripod/head combo for this kit is VERY solid, definitely no stabilization needed. I do leave it with my monopod/gimbal though...

Same thing with my VR lenses for my Nikon kit...my keeper-rate goes down considerably if I leave it on with my 300mm f4 PF.

I think you are right. I did some shots on tripod with the GX8 and PL 45mm Macro yesterday, and forgot to switch off the IS at first. The photos taken after I switched it off look sharper. It makes sense also... locking down the sensor and movable lens element instead of leting the camera consider if it's needed or not.

 

[apocolibri]

This is not information exclusive to m43 cameras, but since we need all the help we can get with respect to noise mitigation at high iso's I just received an email from Topaz announcing the release of Topaz DeNoise AI. For those who own Topaz DeNoise, the most comprehensive and adjustable noise reduction software that has unfortunately been treated as the red headed stepchild to DXO Noise Prime, a new AI version has just been released.
I haven't yet had time to test it, but if it's anything like Gigapixel AI or Sharpen AI it should revolutionize noise reduction software. It's a free upgrade for those who currently own Topaz DeNoise.
I've learned to withhold judgement on any initial release of Topaz software as these are generally beta versions that Topaz releases early to generate user input.
As of late I've been looking for user feedback on Gigapixel AI and Sharpen AI and the best source for informed reviews are at the luminous-landscape.com website. The information found on many recent threads not only points out the program's shortcomings (with resepect to the AI program needs for GPU's with more than 2gb vram for optimum results) but also how to get best results and how to avoid aliasing when using Sharpen AI.
Topaz has been quick to update their recent releases after receiving user feedback. I'm stoked beyond words to see this new release as it promises to give us a little more breathing room with our m43 sensors.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

This is not information exclusive to m43 cameras, but since we need all the help we can get with respect to noise mitigation at high iso's I just received an email from Topaz announcing the release of Topaz DeNoise AI. For those who own Topaz DeNoise, the most comprehensive and adjustable noise reduction software that has unfortunately been treated as the red headed stepchild to DXO Noise Prime, a new AI version has just been released.
I haven't yet had time to test it, but if it's anything like Gigapixel AI or Sharpen AI it should revolutionize noise reduction software. It's a free upgrade for those who currently own Topaz DeNoise.
I've learned to withhold judgement on any initial release of Topaz software as these are generally beta versions that Topaz releases early to generate user input.
As of late I've been looking for user feedback on Gigapixel AI and Sharpen AI and the best source for informed reviews are at the luminous-landscape.com website. The information found on many recent threads not only points out the program's shortcomings (with resepect to the AI program needs for GPU's with more than 2gb vram for optimum results) but also how to get best results and how to avoid aliasing when using Sharpen AI.
Topaz has been quick to update their recent releases after receiving user feedback. I'm stoked beyond words to see this new release as it promises to give us a little more breathing room with our m43 sensors.

Thank you for the heads up. I had a look at their website and a user video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qGnsFRS-jY, and it looks very impressive indeed. I guess I'll buy this, since it will be very useful for whenever I need "clean" photos.

 

[AlanS]

Lower Enfield Falls. E-M1X 12-100, HHHRes mode, Sharpened in Topaz Sharpen AI.

Hi Carl, do you have any thoughts on the rendering of the water? I feel there is something that does not feel quite "right" in the high res (pixel shift) rendering. I have the same feeling with my G9 if I use a short exposure, but not a longer one of say 1/8s to 1s. It is a coarseness that does not look/feel natural vs. a single exposure.
The ability to hand hold a high res pic is very impressive though!

 

[scho]

Hi Carl, do you have any thoughts on the rendering of the water? I feel there is something that does not feel quite "right" in the high res (pixel shift) rendering. I have the same feeling with my G9 if I use a short exposure, but not a longer one of say 1/8s to 1s. It is a coarseness that does not look/feel natural vs. a single exposure.
The ability to hand hold a high res pic is very impressive though!

Hi Alan,

Yes, I agree that moving water does not render that well in high res shots using fast shutter speeds. I will try some with slower shutter and/or ND filters. There is an option for shooting with live ND that basically blends multiple images of moving water, but it only produces jpegs.

 

[leuallen]

I tried Denoise AI on a file previously processed in LR to my satisfaction. It was 6400 so grainy. Made copy and reverted to original and then ran Denoise AI from PS. Adjusted Denoise AI parameters to my satisfaction and returned to PS. Result blew my mind. Excellent.

The image was a tight head shot. The smooth out of focus areas in the background showed almost no grain. The skin and areas that should have texture had grain in the right amount. By that I mean that it was not the watercolor effect of no grain that most denoise programs give. There was enough grain to show the texture and give the skin some bite and grit, a natural effect. Very good.

The originally processed version was done in LR. I used a high amount of noise reduction to clean up the background but this resulted in the skin being too smooth with no texture or bite, watercolor. To fix this I used an adjustment brush with the Noise setting set at about -50 and adjusted to taste latter. Applied to the skin areas to increase noise. They were now much improved and the background was untouched. A two step process.

Denoise AI did in one step which took two in LR and the Denoise AI results were much better.

Down sides: Creates an additional file. More storage space and more files to manage. But this is common if top notch results are desired because you often have to go to PS or some additional program.

Since this is the initial version of the program it was released to get it out there and get feed back. Thus it is missing some features that most Topaz programs have. No presets. Settings not sticky so that if you are doing similar files you have to set the parameters for each file as the last used good parameter settings are lost. I am sure that future versions of the program will address these shortcomings.

At this point, the big drawback for me is that I will not be able to batch process files if the parameters I want are other than default. The denoise process should be the first step in the workflow as it works best on the raw file with no processing. I am using raw so have no clue as to how it works on jpgs.

Up sides: Beautifully grain structure images from high ISO grainy images.

Screen shot of my results. First is Denoise AI and second is LR. 200% zoom. I don't know if you will be able to see the difference here but I assure you that they are very noticeable on my computer.

Keep in mind that one image does not a summer make. In other words this was a test on one file and it will take many more processed images to come to a definitive conclusion. But the outlook is promising.

Larry

 

[leuallen]

I was right. Difference do not show here. Trust me they exist and Denoise AI is noticeably better.

I am not good at posting images. I think that maybe the images are reversed. LR first then Denoise AI.

If you look at the highlight around the lips, the second image has more detail and density than the first, in other words better.

Larry

 

[apocolibri]

Thanks for your post, Leuallen.
Question: Are you sure the DeNoise AI shot is the top image posted and not the bottom? I ask because I'm seeing more detail in the bottom image. The top looks smeared on my 15" MacBook Pro Retina. Look at the detail in the shirt collar, the microphone, and especially in the musician's face. I'm seeing a much more natural looking image in the bottom shot and an image that has smeared a lot of the detail in the top shot.

I ran one underwater image through Topaz AI and was careful not to set the "Remove Noise" setting too high as I've never been a fan of noisless images. I often add grain before printing as the grain has the effect of almost adding detail. I think we have to be careful in not adjusting settings to the point that detail is lost for the sake of removing noise.

I've been pleasantly surprise at what I've seen thus far. My problem is that apart from my underwater work I always shoot at low iso, so I'm having trouble finding samples of noisy images to work with. If this program works as promised it will be an incredible tool for shooting at higher iso's underwater, which I try and avoid because of detail loss at high iso's.

This new interface on DeNoise is much simpler than the previous iteration. Albert Yang, the developer of DeNoise did a two part video several years ago explaining the purpose of each slider and how to use them. It was labor intensive, and I think many who tried DeNoise were frustrated at just how to judge blue and red channel noise as well as the other controls that were not the most intuitive. This new release is much easier to navigate, so I need to shoot a few high iso images so I can compare this to other programs.

Topaz is quick to release updates so I'm looking forward to seeing future modifications as the program matures.

 

[leuallen]

Thanks for your post, Leuallen.
Question: Are you sure the DeNoise AI shot is the top image posted and not the bottom? I ask because I'm seeing more detail in the bottom image. The top looks smeared on my 15" MacBook Pro Retina. Look at the detail in the shirt collar, the microphone, and especially in the musician's face. I'm seeing a much more natural looking image in the bottom shot and an image that has smeared a lot of the detail in the top shot.

Yes, I think I screwed up the upload order. The bottom image is Denoise AI. Compare the area around the lips. The Denoise AI image seems better, more density and grain in the highlights. Looks more natural.

Mac screens are not really that good for photo editing. I am using a pair of calibrated high end photo monitors by Benq. So my visual judgement should be pretty accurate.

I am waiting for some method of batch processing. Not promising at the present but with upgrades to program may be doable. I am shooting a musical performance tonight and will take 400-600 exposures of which 30-50 will be keepers and processed. It would be great if I could cull down to the keepers then batch process them with Denoise AI. It would save tons of time and effort.

Larry

 

[apocolibri]

Yes, I think I screwed up the upload order. The bottom image is Denoise AI. Compare the area around the lips. The Denoise AI image seems better, more density and grain in the highlights. Looks more natural.

That makes a lot more sense, Larry. The bottom image clearly looks better to my eyes on my monitor.

I just ran a test after photographing a framed humminbgbird I shot years ago. I shot the framed image indoors at 5,000 iso as I want to see how DeNoise AI does with extreme iso levels (extreme for m43). I first ran the image through Nik DFine as I have Nik plugins with my Aperture editing software (why change when the program still works beautifully?)

Next I ran the image through DeNoise AI and kept the settings low (20/20/20) so as not to obliterate all feather detail. I'm posting crops of the test below. First will be the original with considerable noise, followed by the Nik DFine sample and finally the DeNoise AI result. Compare the feather detail in the bird in all shots as well as the green areas arouond the bird that are the primary areas where the noise reduction did it's work. No sharpening was done following the denoise process with DFine or Topaz AI.
Look at these at full size for best results.

Though this is only a first test with many more to come, I think we have a winner here!

 

[neilvan]

This is not information exclusive to m43 cameras, but since we need all the help we can get with respect to noise mitigation at high iso's I just received an email from Topaz announcing the release of Topaz DeNoise AI. For those who own Topaz DeNoise, the most comprehensive and adjustable noise reduction software that has unfortunately been treated as the red headed stepchild to DXO Noise Prime, a new AI version has just been released.
I haven't yet had time to test it, but if it's anything like Gigapixel AI or Sharpen AI it should revolutionize noise reduction software. It's a free upgrade for those who currently own Topaz DeNoise.
I've learned to withhold judgement on any initial release of Topaz software as these are generally beta versions that Topaz releases early to generate user input.
As of late I've been looking for user feedback on Gigapixel AI and Sharpen AI and the best source for informed reviews are at the luminous-landscape.com website. The information found on many recent threads not only points out the program's shortcomings (with resepect to the AI program needs for GPU's with more than 2gb vram for optimum results) but also how to get best results and how to avoid aliasing when using Sharpen AI.
Topaz has been quick to update their recent releases after receiving user feedback. I'm stoked beyond words to see this new release as it promises to give us a little more breathing room with our m43 sensors.

I have been using Topaz Labs applications for roughly 12 years, (I own 98% of what they have released). I got this free update yesterday, it does work very well but I have already found myself going back to using my old standby, Neat Image, for noise reduction needs for a couple of reasons. You can't invoke DeNoise AI or Sharpen AI from within PS CC 2019 which slows down my 'workflow'. They also strip the files of EXIF data, I personally think this a really big 'no-no'. Also, in Sharpen AI the defaults for saving a file [name, compression-type & colour profile] get reset each time. Small things but they really get annoying having to change them with every file...

Maybe this is something they can address in a future release but they haven't with Sharpen AI as of the current release so who knows?

 

[apocolibri]

I have been using Topaz Labs applications for roughly 12 years, (I own 98% of what they have released). I got this free update yesterday, it does work very well but I have already found myself going back to using my old standby, Neat Image, for noise reduction needs for a couple of reasons. You can't invoke DeNoise AI or Sharpen AI from within PS CC 2019 which slows down my 'workflow'. They also strip the files of EXIF data, I personally think this a really big 'no-no'. Also, in Sharpen AI the defaults for saving a file [name, compression-type & colour profile] get reset each time. Small things but they really get annoying having to change them with every file...

Maybe this is something they can address in a future release but they haven't with Sharpen AI as of the current release so who knows?

The EXIF stripping is a big issue for me as well, Neil. This will be addressed sooner if more people complain to Topaz. Bummer that you can't access the Topaz plugins from PS CC 2019. I have the 2018 version of PS CC and both Sharpen AI and DeNoise AI are accessible under Filters.

The hummingbird sample posted above is a poor example of what this new program can do. The image was printed on rice paper and DeNoise doesn't know how to deal with the texture in the paper. I just reshot the same image at 12,800 iso and DeNoise AI is retaining the feather detail where the rice paper texture isn't seen, and smearing continuous tone areas where there is noise but no detail. I need to pick a better example as the paper texture is wreaking havoc with the AI.

 

[leuallen]

You can't invoke DeNoise AI or Sharpen AI from within PS CC 2019 which slows down my 'workflow'. ?

What do you mean? I open file, make dup layer. Go to filters Topaz Labs -> and Denoise AI is listed there. Maybe your installation is messed up. I used the standard install for Denoise AI and it placed the filter in my PS filters menu.

I seem to have my metadata intact with Denoise AI. I have heard complaints that other Topaz plug-ins messing up the metadata. They are working on it.

I have Neat Image also and used it when LR was not enough (Denoise 6 is too complicated). Denoise AI is better and simple, only 3 intuitive sliders.

I am not affiliated with Topaz in any way. I was just so impressed with program that I wanted to spread the word. This is great for 4/3 users as it reduces one of its major drawback of noise at high ISO.

Larry

 

[leuallen]

The EXIF stripping is a big issue for me as well, Neil. This will be addressed sooner if more people complain to Topaz. Bummer that you can't access the Topaz plugins from PS CC 2019. I have the 2018 version of PS CC and both Sharpen AI and DeNoise AI are accessible under Filters.

The hummingbird sample posted above is a poor example of what this new program can do. The image was printed on rice paper and DeNoise doesn't know how to deal with the texture in the paper. I just reshot the same image at 12,800 iso and DeNoise AI is retaining the feather detail where the rice paper texture isn't seen, and smearing continuous tone areas where there is noise but no detail. I need to pick a better example as the paper texture is wreaking havoc with the AI.

Must use raw file for best results (dng same thing). Printed on rice paper confuses me. Just take your camera, set the ISO to 6400, and take some snaps around the house. Pick things with fine detail.

In your example, I think you can up the noise reduction without losing detail. In my example I used about 43. Just use your eyes to examine the programs image tile.

Larry

 

[scho]

I have been using Topaz Labs applications for roughly 12 years, (I own 98% of what they have released). I got this free update yesterday, it does work very well but I have already found myself going back to using my old standby, Neat Image, for noise reduction needs for a couple of reasons. You can't invoke DeNoise AI or Sharpen AI from within PS CC 2019 which slows down my 'workflow'. They also strip the files of EXIF data, I personally think this a really big 'no-no'. Also, in Sharpen AI the defaults for saving a file [name, compression-type & colour profile] get reset each time. Small things but they really get annoying having to change them with every file...

Maybe this is something they can address in a future release but they haven't with Sharpen AI as of the current release so who knows?

They have promised an update of Sharpen AI in early May that corrects the exif stripping issue. We shall see in a few weeks.

 

[apocolibri]

Re: 20,000 ISO on m43... THIS IS NUTZ!!!!

Leuallen,
I did try raising the level of noise reduction and the background (green area) turned to mush. It was, as I thought, a function of the rice paper texture that was confusing the AI algorithm.
I decided to really push things so I just shot a bird of paradise flower detail in shade at 20,000 iso. First a shot of the file info so no one thinks I'm cooking the results, followed by the original 20,000K iso file, followed by one processed in the prior incarnation of DeNoise 6 (I don't use the Olympus settings in DeNoise6 as this flattens all detail and turns the image to pure mush), followed by the image run through DeNoise AI. Settings for DeNoise AI are indicated at the bottom right of the file.

There was severe banding on the right side of the image that was somewhat mitigated in DeNoise 6, and absent in DeNoise AI.

When I saw the results of the AI version, the ghost of Belushi whispered in my ear: "NOW WHAT YOU GOT TO SAY... BAAAABYYY!!!???"

This, along with Sharpen AI and Gigapixel AI is a game changer for the m43 format. Short of a new sensor with better highlight rendering and an EM5 MK? with better autofocus, I have no interest in upgrading this old 2015 technology. And I don't work for Topaz either...

 

[neilvan]

What do you mean? I open file, make dup layer. Go to filters Topaz Labs -> and Denoise AI is listed there. Maybe your installation is messed up. I used the standard install for Denoise AI and it placed the filter in my PS filters menu.

I seem to have my metadata intact with Denoise AI. I have heard complaints that other Topaz plug-ins messing up the metadata. They are working on it.

I have Neat Image also and used it when LR was not enough (Denoise 6 is too complicated). Denoise AI is better and simple, only 3 intuitive sliders.

I am not affiliated with Topaz in any way. I was just so impressed with program that I wanted to spread the word. This is great for 4/3 users as it reduces one of its major drawback of noise at high ISO.

Larry

Thanks Larry, I just did a full uninstall of PS and Topaz stuff, re-installed everything and there they are...fixed. I suspect it was PS creating the problem as I have done several uninstalls/reinstalls of Topaz recently to no avail. It's working now though, yay!

 

[leuallen]

Re: 20,000 ISO on m43... THIS IS NUTZ!!!!

Stellar results. Seems we are on to something with Sharpen AI and Denoise AI. Now the question becomes which came first the chicken or the egg. Do we denoise first and then sharpen or vice versa. Will sharpening mess up denoise results and increase grain or will Denoise AI not work as well on a sharpened image. Inquiring minds want to know. Too tired now to test.

Larry