V
Vivek
Guest
You just have to give them unique names, Jono.
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jonoslack
Active member
Here I have to come clean, there are, actually, 3 of me:You just have to give them unique names, Jono.
jon
jonathan
jono
unfortunately one can make some interesting equivalences:
jonathan = jon
jonathan <> jono
jono = jon
jono <> jonathan
jon <> jonathan
jon <> jono
It's nearly time for a glass of wine
jonoslack
Active member
It could have been worse, it was my first demonstration with Silas (new employee, old son) in tow, He had made all the contacts with the customer, but we hadn't quoted them. We did a double act, haggled a bit, and they bought the software on the spot. This has only happened to me once before.Jono
you have the perfect excuse - having to be be in Aberdeen AND doing computer demos in December is enough drive anyone to misery and despair
Of course, we now have to fit installation in between a new one in Germany (I'm doing that one) and one in Khazakstan (Silas is doing that one :ROTFL
.Cairo sounds cooool . . . erm . . . :wtf::banghead:
kevinparis
Member
jono
Been trying to work out in my head all day on how to defend my 'less than enhusiasm' for the M8.
Notice i said M8... not Leica per se... and there lies the the truth
Leica made great cameras.. they offered photographers a tool that met their needs and was state of the art cutting edge echnology. Small body, quiet shutter, bright viewfinder, interchangeable lenses and the abiilty focus them with confidence. This all came in a package that was built to the highest engineering standards.
Of course these cameras were nothing without lenses... and this as where Leica were truly masters. The had the designers and the skill to produce lenses that resulted in a look that had never been seen before or probably since.
the problem is that this was all before I was born...more than 50 years ago. The Leica M3 still remains their best selling camera. It defined a whole generation of photographers and captured many of the iconic images of the 60's
The problem is that was were they stopped leading... they barely struggled through the 70's 80's and 90's.
SLRS got better smaller faster and less expensive... sure the lenses might not be as good but they got the shot... and whatever lens you put on a slr... thats what you got full frame on the albeit duller viewfinder... even when focusing close
But still the legend of Leica and the wish of every photographer/lawyer/dentist to be a Cartier Bresson or a Vietnam war photographer kept them in business...just
So the digital age arrives and what happens... Leica sit on the sidelines too long hoping the fad will go away and dont embrace the opportunity to once again redefine the ultimate must have camera.
Instead they shoehorn the technology into a form factor they are comfortable with... but actually they discover that the body need to be just a bit bigger.. they get rid of the redundant shutter cock lever that offered a reassuring point of grippage on the right hand side. But they retain the removeable baseplate to access the battery and the storage media.. forgetting or ignoring that this is likely to be a more regular occurrance in the digital world
Oh and removing the shutter cocking lever means that they have to now have a noisy motor rewind the shutter immediately... destroying one of their legendary advantages.
Then there is the quality of the image.. micro lenses to ensure the light hits the sensor just right... then they have to ship out IR filters because basically they cant record black properly.
None of this sounds like good design to me.. Design is about finding the best solution to the problem.. and with the M8 they failed.
To me the M8 is a VW Beetle with satnav, air con and electric wing mirrors... a classic car.. probably a lot of fun... but not the best solution available today
Granted nobody has yet produced the definitive digital camera... they all suffer from flaws... mainly in terms of interface.. The Canon 9 is my closest yet... but i dearly wish it had a focus ring i could touch. LX3 while i hear it takes wonderful pictures fails in its market segment because i cant safely put it in my pocket because it has a lens cap.
I look at Olympus Pen F' and OM1's and even Nikon EM's and FG's of 20 to 30 years ago and wonder why nobody does a digital SLR of that size and simplicity.
All I want is a light tight box with wonderful optics i can easily carry and quickly use..
Leica could give me the optics.. why not the rest
OK its late ramble off
Peace and love
Kevin
Been trying to work out in my head all day on how to defend my 'less than enhusiasm' for the M8.
Notice i said M8... not Leica per se... and there lies the the truth
Leica made great cameras.. they offered photographers a tool that met their needs and was state of the art cutting edge echnology. Small body, quiet shutter, bright viewfinder, interchangeable lenses and the abiilty focus them with confidence. This all came in a package that was built to the highest engineering standards.
Of course these cameras were nothing without lenses... and this as where Leica were truly masters. The had the designers and the skill to produce lenses that resulted in a look that had never been seen before or probably since.
the problem is that this was all before I was born...more than 50 years ago. The Leica M3 still remains their best selling camera. It defined a whole generation of photographers and captured many of the iconic images of the 60's
The problem is that was were they stopped leading... they barely struggled through the 70's 80's and 90's.
SLRS got better smaller faster and less expensive... sure the lenses might not be as good but they got the shot... and whatever lens you put on a slr... thats what you got full frame on the albeit duller viewfinder... even when focusing close
But still the legend of Leica and the wish of every photographer/lawyer/dentist to be a Cartier Bresson or a Vietnam war photographer kept them in business...just
So the digital age arrives and what happens... Leica sit on the sidelines too long hoping the fad will go away and dont embrace the opportunity to once again redefine the ultimate must have camera.
Instead they shoehorn the technology into a form factor they are comfortable with... but actually they discover that the body need to be just a bit bigger.. they get rid of the redundant shutter cock lever that offered a reassuring point of grippage on the right hand side. But they retain the removeable baseplate to access the battery and the storage media.. forgetting or ignoring that this is likely to be a more regular occurrance in the digital world
Oh and removing the shutter cocking lever means that they have to now have a noisy motor rewind the shutter immediately... destroying one of their legendary advantages.
Then there is the quality of the image.. micro lenses to ensure the light hits the sensor just right... then they have to ship out IR filters because basically they cant record black properly.
None of this sounds like good design to me.. Design is about finding the best solution to the problem.. and with the M8 they failed.
To me the M8 is a VW Beetle with satnav, air con and electric wing mirrors... a classic car.. probably a lot of fun... but not the best solution available today
Granted nobody has yet produced the definitive digital camera... they all suffer from flaws... mainly in terms of interface.. The Canon 9 is my closest yet... but i dearly wish it had a focus ring i could touch. LX3 while i hear it takes wonderful pictures fails in its market segment because i cant safely put it in my pocket because it has a lens cap.
I look at Olympus Pen F' and OM1's and even Nikon EM's and FG's of 20 to 30 years ago and wonder why nobody does a digital SLR of that size and simplicity.
All I want is a light tight box with wonderful optics i can easily carry and quickly use..
Leica could give me the optics.. why not the rest
OK its late ramble off
Peace and love
Kevin
jonoslack
Active member
Hmmm sounds like an M8 to me!
Still, I read what you say, but:
1. IR filters become no issue when you use them (apart from the cost)
2. the base plate removal is no issue with practice (I really like it - but I thought it was a REAL pain in the butt with my M6)
3. It's still quieter than every SLR I've used except the Olympus E1
4. The image quality has a certain something which really isn't available this side of medium format (even if it is only a lack of AA filter).
Saying that your best so far is the Canon G9 seems (to me) to be completely laughable. I mean, I have one, it's fine, but comparing the use and image quality to an M8 is like comparing a cheap Australian shiraz with a really good Rioja, neither is the best or the worst . . . . . but they are worlds apart.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that an M8 is for everyone (or that it's perfect), but I think that all things worth using have idiosyncrasies, the M8 is no different. Your assessment seems to me to be simply a precis of the bitching which has gone around the internet, and to me it just suggests that you haven't spent enough time with one (why should you . . but if you haven't I'm not sure that you have the credentials for a meaningful panning). . . . . . and when you speak of G9's and LX3's in the same breath, I'm pretty certain I'm right.
We can agree on the peace and love though!
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
Jono,
I think you nailed it. Just another M8 rant from a bystander ... nothing new of interest here. :thumbdown: If folks so prescriptive of how bad the M8 is actually used them then these comments would have more credibility.
As regards a Leica m4/3rds camera - sure, slap a red dot and Leica nameplate on the G1 but produce some m4/3rds Leica design lenses!
The G1 has me intrigued enough to sell off the G10 & GRD II that have been languishing in my travel bag and get a G1. Like you though, you'd have to prise my M8's from my cold dead fingers ... :grin::grin:
V
Vivek
Guest
Comparing the G1 to G10 and GRDII is no worse or better than comparing those with the M8.
Different classes of cameras.
V
Vivek
Guest
I think the square golden L can be replaced with a red M.
jonoslack
Active member
HI Graham
Vivek
I quite agree M8 is to the G1 what the G1 is to the G10/G200.
At least, in terms of image sophistication.
Well, Thank you for agreeing with me, but I wouldn't class Kevin as a bystander exactly. I think he worded it pretty well, but of course, we DO agree, and the criticisms certainly sound as if they're based in sentiment rather than experience.
Vivek
I quite agree M8 is to the G1 what the G1 is to the G10/G200.
At least, in terms of image sophistication.
kevinparis
Member
jono
thanks for the kind defence.. I take your points... and perhaps Graham should realise that I am not saying the M8 or indeed any Leica is a bad camera. That would be absurd to say... it is quite obvious that a Leica is capable of taking the very best photos.... but most of that has to do with the superb quality of the lenses.
my premise is that the industrial and to a certain extent engineering design of the M8 disappoints me... as do many many other digital cameras. I don't think any digital camera has really effectively tackled how to combine the control a keen photographer seeks with the options a digital sensor offers
I was in no way comparing the G9 quality-wise to the M8... But I know the first time I picked up the G9 it felt 'right' in my hands and knew that i would happily throw it in my pocket or bag when going out and be able to take pictures when and where I wanted.
Everytime I have picked up and used an M8 it just feels awkward.. cold, unwelcoming... and thats before i even think of the fact that I cant just throw 5000 bucks around like i would My G9 or Oly 510.
Maybe it is the price I baulk at, maybe it is I just don't see the advantages of the rangefinder in the 21st century or indeed those advantages actually improved from where they were 50 years ago.
If you gave me an M8.2 tomorrow - I would probably keep the lens, sell the body , buy an RD-1 which from my perspective does pretty much everything the M8 does but with more character, and take a nice trip somewhere to take photos... or maybe a lumix G1 and an adaptor and take an even longer trip. I think through the same lens photos from each of those cameras would be indistinguishable to most people.
Just don't tell my other half... she is still hankering after a Leica... but looking to film
take care all... I never mean to be nasty... just enjoy the banter
peace out
K
thanks for the kind defence.. I take your points... and perhaps Graham should realise that I am not saying the M8 or indeed any Leica is a bad camera. That would be absurd to say... it is quite obvious that a Leica is capable of taking the very best photos.... but most of that has to do with the superb quality of the lenses.
my premise is that the industrial and to a certain extent engineering design of the M8 disappoints me... as do many many other digital cameras. I don't think any digital camera has really effectively tackled how to combine the control a keen photographer seeks with the options a digital sensor offers
I was in no way comparing the G9 quality-wise to the M8... But I know the first time I picked up the G9 it felt 'right' in my hands and knew that i would happily throw it in my pocket or bag when going out and be able to take pictures when and where I wanted.
Everytime I have picked up and used an M8 it just feels awkward.. cold, unwelcoming... and thats before i even think of the fact that I cant just throw 5000 bucks around like i would My G9 or Oly 510.
Maybe it is the price I baulk at, maybe it is I just don't see the advantages of the rangefinder in the 21st century or indeed those advantages actually improved from where they were 50 years ago.
If you gave me an M8.2 tomorrow - I would probably keep the lens, sell the body , buy an RD-1 which from my perspective does pretty much everything the M8 does but with more character, and take a nice trip somewhere to take photos... or maybe a lumix G1 and an adaptor and take an even longer trip. I think through the same lens photos from each of those cameras would be indistinguishable to most people.
Just don't tell my other half... she is still hankering after a Leica... but looking to film
take care all... I never mean to be nasty... just enjoy the banter
peace out
K
jonoslack
Active member
I've gone to the trouble of shovelling out the original:
Still, if you don't like rangefinders then you're never going to love an M8, and having also had (and fallen in love with) an R-D1 I wouldn't go back to using it in a thousand years.
I can accept that you don't like the idea in principle . .
As for the G9 - you can throw it around as much as you like. Emma threw hers in a lake in Cornwall, it only took a second or two to get it out, by which time the whole camera was full of water . . . a week in the airing cupboard sorted it out, and it was just as despicable as ever
All the best
it's been said a lot since of course.
Still, if you don't like rangefinders then you're never going to love an M8, and having also had (and fallen in love with) an R-D1 I wouldn't go back to using it in a thousand years.
I can accept that you don't like the idea in principle . .
As for the G9 - you can throw it around as much as you like. Emma threw hers in a lake in Cornwall, it only took a second or two to get it out, by which time the whole camera was full of water . . . a week in the airing cupboard sorted it out, and it was just as despicable as ever
All the best
kevinparis
Member
jono
ok we agree to differ... lets get back to taking photos...
best wishes for the festive season
K
ok we agree to differ... lets get back to taking photos...
best wishes for the festive season
K
jonoslack
Active member
How does it go?
Peace and Love?
Best Wishes to You too - when are you off to Cairo?
We're going here for Christmas:
where our baby has a job as a 'ski man' and a french girlfriend.
kevinparis
Member
off to Cairo sunday afternoon... back in Paris wednesday and then of to Edinburgh next sunday until the New Year.
Enjoy the skiing - like rangefinders... not my cup of tea.. but each to their own
take care
K
Enjoy the skiing - like rangefinders... not my cup of tea.. but each to their own
take care
K
V
Vivek
Guest
I do not think I meant it that way. But as an M8 owner if that is how it comes across to you, Jono, I am happy to be of help!
As you mentioned yourself, M8 has been discussed to death over the net by folks who do not love it. I am not passionate about cameras or logos. I do not own an M8. I owned an Epson R-D1s for ~ 1.5 years (in hindsight a mistake but I don't dwell on such). I will not buy a digital range finder (red dot, blue dot whatever) ever again.
Per Ofverbeck
Member
Funny, I said the same thing to myself the other day.Nor I. The era of coupled rangefinder is over.
The G1 is the modern Barnack.
Barnack was a true innovator. Both the use of cine film in a small still camera, and (later) the coupled rangefinder were the cutting edge of technology when he adopted them.
He would have shaken his head over the trend to "embalm" these technologies today, still talking of "full frame" sensors and the absolute superiority of optical coincidence rangefinders.
Today, he would have designed a GREAT new camera using the same kind of EVF and focussing aids that the G1 is using.....:salute:
(To stem flaming: I do agree on the following:
1) The image quality of the M8 is incredible.
2) Optical finders and rangefinders still suit some shooters´ mode of work very well.
I sincerely hope these shooters continue to find such tools available ("affordable" may be too much to wish for...
)! But they´re not everyone´s cup of tea, really. My M2 rests slightly used in a cupboard while my Leicaflex SL´s were totally worn out...)
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jonoslack
Active member
Nor I. The era of coupled rangefinder is over.
The G1 is the modern Barnack.
Oh! I quite agree with you all about the era of the coupled rangefinder being over, just not that the M8 is a disaster (these are not the same thing).
However, there is a point about a rangefinder which is nothing to do with coupling, and still has as much artistic validity as it ever had . . . . . which is being able to see all around the subject, I find this delightful and invaluable, and I think it is a point that those who don't like or haven't used rangefinders usually miss out on.
Framelines and a wider angle of view on a bright viewfinder are a real joy to use. It doesn't need a nasty little focus patch in the middle!
In addition, the fact that when you bring your camera to your eye you always see the same 'view' of the world makes it like having a second eye, rather than something stuck in front of it; you can also keep your other eye open, for me it makes the camera dissolve into the background, and of course this has an effect on both the way one shoots, and the way one's subject perceives you.
My dream camera would have an evf and lcd (like the G1) but it would ALSO have a viewfinder like an M8 or R-D1, with an overlay to show 'proper' framelines, which would zoom with a zoom, and a patch at the bottom showing exposure values and focus confirmation (whether auto or manual). You could also have 3 or 4 different 'views' to accomodate different lens ranges (i.e. one which was equivalent to 15mm, one to 35, one to 90).
This is why I'm so disappointed that Leica seem to have opted out on this one - I was thinking that something the size of a CL, with a m4/3 mount, all the normal g1 gubbins AND an optical viewfinder with overlay would be something that almost any m series lover would want.
As I say, there are times when it is great to see what you are leaving out of a picture, as well as what you are keeping in.
Steen - quite agree about an opportunity for Zeiss, but I fear that their Sony tie in would preclude any real deal on m4/3.
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Stuart Richardson
Active member
Been talking to him, have you?
I just find it funny when people tear dead people out of their graves to prove their arguments. It is a very popular pastime in US politics -- "The founding fathers wouldn't have supported gun control, the founding fathers don't think gays should marry etc etc" Who knows what Oskar Barnack would have liked? He could have been an old curmudgeon who refused to use anything other than his Leica IIIf, or maybe he would be a wedding videographer! Who cares? Other than that, I am basically entirely with Jono here -- I am ok with the M8 since it gives me a digital way to use my M lenses, while still maintaining an optical rangefinder. I would like digitally or optically projected accurate framelines, but I am ok with the rangefinder patch. I have not met an EVF I have liked, but I am willing to believe that one day we may get there. I think a better option for rangefinders would be to build upon HUD (head up displays) that are used in a great deal of military and aviation technology. That way you have the purity and speed of optical vision combined with the utility of an EVF. I am sure Oskar Barnack would agree with me. :lecture: