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Thread: Hey G1 fans.

  1. #1
    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Hey G1 fans.

    Sean Reid has just uploaded the first part of his two part review of the G1. Really good read. And a lot to feel good about with your discovery of what I think is a truly remarkable development (if you'll excuse the pun) in digital photography.

    The first part is a good analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the G1 concept (and of course its inevitable comparison to the M-youknowwhat).

    The second part plans to delve into the quality of the images themselves. (Which I don't think there will be too many surprises if the images I've seen on this site are any indication. )

    If you haven't subscribed to his site, very worth it. He's very thoughtful, very thorough and very fair. (And no I'm not a paid stooge, spammer or one of his long lost relatives.)

    Peter
    Last edited by peterb; 9th January 2009 at 19:46.
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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Hi Peter,

    yes, looking forward to reading this article later today - it's sad that we have to put disclaimers on honest recommendations today... I am not a communist, I have never met a communist and none of my friends are gay - oh, and I have no financial connection with Sean other than paying my annual subscription to his excellent review site

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I agree. A good and fair read with only a few errors that I mentioned and one that I missed but someone else caught. Sean is a very good photographer, in my opinion and thus I place high value in his judgements. Having said that I don't always fully agree with him, mainly because of his admitted bias toward a RF type of viewing. While I like an RF type of viewing it isn't the be all and end all to me that it is to him.
    V/r John

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I reviewed Sean's review/analysis and while I think it fairly portrays the G1's strengths, and weaknesses, he seems to add a lot of his personal positive bias towards DRF's.

    I think that his comments on using RF lenses on the G1 are helpful, and accurately portray the additional steps in their use. Probably, their best use would be for stationary/slow moving images unless zone focussing, or large depth of field shooting works for the subject.

    I usually find his reviews thoughtful, and technically complete, but his description of an imaginary DRF (OV-1) to be a little off the purpose of the review. He goes into significant detail about this imaginary camera, which I think does little to add to his otherwise excellent review.

    Just my opinion.

    Martin

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Maritn

    In practice - which admittedly isn't a lot, I don't find focusing the DRF lenses to take that long. In low light with my M8 I'm kinda (like very) slow getting focus on a fast lens wide open.

    Even on the D700 and Voigtlander lens that has focus confirm I'm not that fast.

    Agree with your synopsis.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Thanks TEBnewyork

    I felt a little odd with my comments on the OV-1 (imaginary camera) since I usually find Sean's review's very well done with a great degree of objectivity.

    I m looking forward to receiving John Milich's GM adapter to see for myself how difficult or easy using some of my vintage Leica lenses on the G1.

    I really liked ur images of the Bay Bridge using the 15mm, and 75mm CV lenses. Makes me think about purchasing the 75 mm???

    Any problems with lack of stabilization at 150 mm FOV?????

    Martin

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
    I think that his comments on using RF lenses on the G1 are helpful, and accurately portray the additional steps in their use. Probably, their best use would be for stationary/slow moving images unless zone focussing, or large depth of field shooting works for the subject.
    I'm a former subscriber. Is his take that the G1 with RF lenses is as least as good as any rangefinder (as in my experience, an RF is also best used in the situations described above.)

    Was there anything about using adapted SLR lenses?

    I subscribed when I was contemplating an M8, found the information helpful but not moreso than other info freely available. I thought it curious that Sean is so steadfastly against ('cannot recommend') manual coding of lenses. Also was frustrated by the sloooow flash interface.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
    Thanks TEBnewyork

    I felt a little odd with my comments on the OV-1 (imaginary camera) since I usually find Sean's review's very well done with a great degree of objectivity.

    I m looking forward to receiving John Milich's GM adapter to see for myself how difficult or easy using some of my vintage Leica lenses on the G1.

    I really liked ur images of the Bay Bridge using the 15mm, and 75mm CV lenses. Makes me think about purchasing the 75 mm???

    Any problems with lack of stabilization at 150 mm FOV?????

    Martin
    PM me before you go out and buy a 75. I have both the CV75 and a 75 cron and would potentially sell the CV. The CV lens renders really beautifully wide open...these are from my M8

    http://tbanet.zenfolio.com/p1032449580/

    Terry

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I am a former subscriber too, and initially paid up when contemplating lenses for the M8. I think his reviews are very pertinent and an excellent resource to add to the spectrum of opinion available while in the midst of an equipment purchase decision.

    But I won't subscribe again and it may sound silly, but I simply can't stand the interface. It is slow beyond reason and very difficult to view test samples one against the other since many times only one sample fits in the screen. If there was an option to download a review as a PDF, I'd sign up again.

    I know, not rational, but hey, user experience is a factor and the fact that the interface still remains the same seems to underscore an impression I have of Sean that it's either "my way or the highway". YMMV as usual.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I am a repeat subscriber because I like what I see in his photography and his articles are well written and thought out. I even like the part about the imaginary OV1 because this is how you spur a manufacturer to build something different.

    However, I too hate his user interface. It is way too slow and cumbersome and the one thing Sean really should look to change. There are many other ways to present the information that would create a much more pleasant user experience. If it's done to protect content it is a waste as any competent technical person can extract the content. Most of us don't in respect for his copyright.
    V/r John

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    But I won't subscribe again and it may sound silly, but I simply can't stand the interface. It is slow beyond reason and very difficult to view test samples one against the other since many times only one sample fits in the screen.
    Not silly at all. Same experience here. Too frustrating, my day is too busy to waste time on scrolling, and like you say, difficult to have side by side comparisons. I refuse to scroll thru at turtle speed taking screen shots to make my own side by sides. Far too time consuming.

    I'd most likely sign up again, except for the interface. As John says, there are other ways. I have subscribed to another site for 4-5 years (not photography related) that has copyrighted info, and has none of these problems. A browser is far more efficient displaying text and jpegs than flash.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Make sure you are using the up and down arrows to scroll as opposed to the scroll bar in the on screen window. Scrolling is way faster and painless as compared to using the mouse, cursor and scroll arrows.

    Woody

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Using a Mac I tend to have my hand on the mouse and use the scroll ball so I never think to use the arrow keys on the keyboard.
    V/r John

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    ..... I thought it curious that Sean is so steadfastly against ('cannot recommend') manual coding of lenses......
    I think you have misinterpreted 'cannot recommend'.

    I'd have thought that Sean's campaigning, reviews, and extensive contributions to discussions [particularly on LUF] on using various 'M' and LTM lenses on the M8 demonstrate emphatically his position in favour of coding lenses when appropriate.

    I read 'cannot recommend' as will not, a legal nicety which protects him from possible and no doubt unwelcome litigation by people who code lenses, run into problems, and seek compensation from Sean.

    Whilst Sean cannot recommend, the signposts in his writing clearly shows where coding is advisable.

    I too find the slowness of the sight a bit irritating, particularly when I return to an article and want to scan it for specific information. Other than that, I'm a fan, particularly of Sean's reviewing style which I find refreshingly trustworthy.

    ............... Chris

  15. #15
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    We've had a fairly long thread now discussing an article that can't be read without a paid subscription -- "second-party spam," in effect. I'm not sure we should be doing that.

    Admitted bias: I'm another former subscriber; I dropped out because the site just didn't have much utility for me. Sean seems like a good guy, and I suppose his pedantic amateur-author style may strike non-writers as learned... but after a while I decided that his opinions weren't really any more valuable than a lot of other opinions available on the Web for free. I realize many people find them insightful and useful, so de gustibus non disputadem (Latin for "Your mileage may vary") and all that. But this still smells a little like plugola to me.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I think several folks have raised good points.

    IMO the number of "past" subscribers (as opposed to current subscribers) indicates to me the basic problem with Sean's paid subscription site: you cannot tell if you are going to appreciate the content until *after* you pay. So here, any potential new subscriber has only a few choices, pay and see or rely on another's recommendation. This is where I see value in threads like this as discussing the merits or flaws folks see can be beneficial to others trying to decide whether to pony up for the subscription...

    Personally, I don't subscribe to Sean's site because as has been repeated by several past subscribers, most of the data it contains can be had for free from several sources -- like right here on GetDPI (). Moreover, one tends to get a more balanced view when more than one opinion is voiced, and this doesn't happen on Sean's site...

    Where I think paid sites work, is where hard, verifiable, technical data is made available and/or where the reviewer has special expertise in the area being discussed. For example, take a site like Diglloyd's (http://www.diglloyd.com/diglloyd/blog.html): he has significant computer programming and testing expertise and applies this to is digital imaging equipment reviews -- and most of all, he has several helpful "free" articles available; if you like what you see in the free areas, then it's a pretty good bet you'll like the information in the paid section.

    On Sean's site, I don't recall much in the way of free meat. (Is there any at all now? Been over a year since I looked...) That said, the direct comparisons he's made using the same setting for different lenses or cameras might be helpful in deciding which version one wants to purchase. Then again, even after reading the paid review, an informed consumer will usually turn to a larger group for verification that a given product is as advertised, so now we're back to the free forum concept...

    One other huge caveat to any review is the buyer needs to first have confidence in the veracity of the reviewer, and did they use appropriate or off-the-shelf review samples... Here, it is known in all industries that often a manufacturer-supplied review sample has been triple-checked and tweaked at the factory for optimal performance -- let's face it, no manufacturer wants to send a dog review sample out. But as buyers, we may just end up with one or worse, the review sample may have been a "superior" copy and thus "normal" may be significantly sub-par.

    My .02 only -- and why the information in GetDPI forums will remain "free,"
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    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Wow! I didn't mean to cause such a ruckus by saying there was a rather favorable review of a camera we've all come to love for the possibilities it presents (namely using some incredible optics on the thing).

    So I apologize for sounding like I was making a plug for Sean's website. I've been a subscriber it's true and yes I've found the interface a little difficult at times (I think it's some weird Java script) but the content I've found quite good. Before the G1 I was contemplating a number of cameras and optics. And I pored over Sean's writings to help me come to a place where I'd want to be. As I'd mentioned on some of these posts I'd had Contax and then Leitz and then bagged it all for digital. First I had a Leitz' Digilux 2, then a Ricoh GR-D (which got fried by the elements on a heli-hiking trip to British Columbia) and most recently a Panasonic Lumix LX1.

    I wanted to get something better. His reviews on various Zeiss third party lenses (which I missed when I gave up the Contax) made me consider two other makes whose cameras would readily take them: the Nikon D700, D300, D90 and the Pentax K20D (based on his very positive review of the K10D). I also looked into the new Sonys with their capability of using some excellent Zeiss AF lenses.

    For me on the issue of photographic hardware in the digital age has been the sensors and their filters. How many pixels before noise gets out of hand? Is an optic being compromised by the sensor's anti-aliasing filter? Clearly nothing will ever come close to nothing coming between a lens and bare naked film. So that said, find a camera candidate with the least impairment on the sensor side that allows the best possible optics available.

    There was one other issue of the hardware. Their physical size. For some reason DSLR's and their lenses are like rocks to me. While liked what I read in Sean's reviews of the D700 I was stopped cold when I actually hoisted one up. Man that sucker is big. No Contax 139 with its built in motor drive. The same held for the D300. The D90 and Pentax (which I only held the previous K10D at B&H in NY a few years back) were just plain chunky. The Sony A900 was waaaay too big for me. And the A700 I felt was just another clubby DSLR.

    I LOVED the idea that the M8 was a just a tad thicker than the traditional film M's. But the price was an issue. But I saw somewhere on the web a photo of the M8 next to this new kid, a weird little camera from Panasonic called the G1 that again was about the same thickness and therefore implying a very holdable little camera that wouldn't feel liek a rock. And then I read how companies were making adapters for this thing. Adapters that would allow one to mount not just big SLR optics but the petite, legendary optics for the likes of M, Zeiss Ikon, Kycocera Contax (which ironically was a rangefinder that was called the G1!), Voigtlander which meant a digital camera with quality interchangeable lenses thus keeping the entire package small, manageable, unobtrusive and, best of all, fun.

    I also read how polarizing it was. There were clearly some fans. But many detractors (mostly over the dearth of optics for an $800 camera and some sniffing about it having an EVF no matter how good its quality which I found superb after the Digilux 2 experience). After considering everything I was sold on the G1. And, like many on this forum, am one happy camper as a result of that decision.

    Sean's reviews merely helped me along that process.

    As far as promoting anything, I suggested the same (as well as BarJohn here) with an analysis of what Pop Photo had said, particularly when with a little cross referencing of individual measurements they'd made with every other top flight digital today one could see that under certain conditions it appeared the little camera that could, the G1, not only held its own on the noise front it surpassed everyone in the color accuracy front and was bested by only two or three in the sharpness/resolution front (and for anyone who wanted to attach the best glass available that was a most exciting development).

    All I was doing was just calling attention to another fine review. No plugs. No payola. No kidding.

    Peter
    Last edited by peterb; 10th January 2009 at 12:36.
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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Peter - no need to explain, we apppreciate the pointer and it's a thought provoking review. I've never used a rangefinder and find the perspective offered refreshing... I was surprised that the ZD 11-22mm f2.8-3.5 wasn't mentioned as a moderately fast wide angle option. Obviously, an 11mm f2 pancake native m4/3rds prime would be fantastic, but this lens is certainly worth consideration in the meantime.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    We should rename this thread "Reid Bashing"

    I re-upped my subscription recently. The way I see it, once I learned his methodology and point of view, I could pretty much ascertain what I needed from the reviews. I think it's worth it. I mean, what's $34 for some solid info when you are trying to decide between $3K Leica lens or a $300 CV?

    Anyway, I can understand why he charges for it. Think how much time would be involved to secure the gear, test it like he does with the focus bracketing, etc, write the articles, add the test photos, post online, pay for the server space and bandwidth, etc. It's not a cheap venture from a money or time standpoint.

    I do agree, however that the interface could use some help. And the fictitious camera, well, maybe that was a little "out there", but who am I to say? Still doesn't take away the info that I find valuable.

  20. #20
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I didn't see the thread as Reid bashing, just perhaps balance. On other forums, it appears there is an unwritten rule not to post any alternative thoughts about Reid Reviews.

    There are other ways to provide the service, one of which is to use an advertising model instead of a subscription model.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I agree that I didn't think of it or see it as Reid Bashing. It's more constructive criticism than anything. Everyone gave their opinion in an intelligent manner from their own personal experiences. They also offered "suggestions" for improvements to be made. It's kind of hard to call that bashing IMO.
    If they reviews are valuable to you then there's no reason to not continue your subscription but if you find yourself not utilizing the information on a regular basis then I can see how people feel it's a waste of money to them. He seems like a knowledgable person from his posts on forums I read. That said there are obviously more than one source of valuable opinions around on the internet.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
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  22. #22
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    I think you have misinterpreted 'cannot recommend'.

    I'd have thought that Sean's campaigning, reviews, and extensive contributions to discussions [particularly on LUF] on using various 'M' and LTM lenses on the M8 demonstrate emphatically his position in favour of coding lenses when appropriate.

    I read 'cannot recommend' as will not, a legal nicety which protects him from possible and no doubt unwelcome litigation by people who code lenses, run into problems, and seek compensation from Sean.

    Whilst Sean cannot recommend, the signposts in his writing clearly shows where coding is advisable.
    You are probably correct, although I 'cannot imagine' anyone litigating because they incorrectly coded a lens based on something Sean wrote. Since I'm no longer a subscriber, I'm working from memory, but I don't recall him explaining how to code, or what the codes are, how-tos, etc.

    In any event, I wish he'd go to a system that doesn't use flash.
    Last edited by monza; 10th January 2009 at 19:30.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    We've had a fairly long thread now discussing an article that can't be read without a paid subscription -- "second-party spam," in effect... after a while I decided that his opinions weren't really any more valuable than a lot of other opinions available on the Web for free... But this still smells a little like plugola to me.
    I think it's important to realize that almost no sites are free. Sean has a GRD II review which you can read if you pay a subscription. I wrote a review of the same camera for my blog, which you can read if you view the ads. Someone might post a review of the same camera in these forums, which in part serve as marketing for Guy and Jack's workshops (it's right up there in the banner logo, see it?). None of this is exactly free.

    If someone starts a thread about a DPReview review, you can't go look at it without paying DPR in the form of ad views. Is that thread then "plugola"? I think Sean and Lloyd take a lot of criticism because they choose an uncommon form of payment. Yet, the subscription method of payment does help them eliminate certain forms of bias which can be introduced by advertisers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    ...For example, take a site like Diglloyd's (http://www.diglloyd.com/diglloyd/blog.html):... he has several helpful "free" articles available; if you like what you see in the free areas, then it's a pretty good bet you'll like the information in the paid section.

    On Sean's site, I don't recall much in the way of free meat. (Is there any at all now? Been over a year since I looked...)...
    Sean has 7 articles written for The Luminous Landscape which are listed and linked under "Example Articles" if you visit Reid Reviews. From what I recall, these articles have been there for a long time now.


    I only recently subscribed to both Diglloyd DAP/Zeiss ZF and Reid Reviews. Both are excellent and worth the money to me, but I can see how they might not be to someone else. I wish Sean's rangefinder tests were done on film cameras, since crop results on an M8 don't apply as well to me. I wish his site didn't rely on Flash, which is a pain in the neck.

    However, as someone who does camera tests, I admire Sean's approach and methods. His reviews are much more helpful to me than the ones I find on the big sites like DPReview, Imaging Resource, and DCRP. Likewise for Diglloyd. In contrast, the great majority of tests which we find in forums (not just these but any forums) are not done with the same level of care and expertise. My two cents.

  24. #24
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Well said, Amin.

    Good points about the reviews. DPreview provides a great amount of minutia in their camera reviews, but I find myself skipping over nearly all of it. Later, if I want to find how how much a camera weighs or some other obscure bit of info, it's very handy to use it as a reference. Reid Reviews approaches things from a different perspective and that approach is more helpful to me, in addition, there is a consistency across different tests such as lens testing. Unfortunately the flash interface gets in the way of easily bringing up a previous test to compare it to another one. I was not familiar with Diglloyd until this thread (thanks for the link, Jack.)

    Lastly, good point about nothing being free.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I think it's important to realize that almost no sites are free...I wrote a review of the same camera for my blog, which you can read if you view the ads...None of this is exactly free...If someone starts a thread about a DPReview review, you can't go look at it without paying DPR in the form of ad views...
    Yeah, but my landlord won't let me pay the rent in "ad views" -- he expects me to write out a check. Same at the gas station, the grocery store, etc. -- for some narrow-minded reason, they won't accept "ad views" either. They're tediously insistent on receiving some form of legal tender, which for me is a finite resource, whereas my ability to deliver "ad views" is limited only by my patience.

    To me, this makes the argument that "ad views" and paid subscriptions are equivalent seem like nothing more than an elegant sophistry.

    But that's just how it looks from my position fairly well down the economic ladder. If all you prosperous gents want to take the position that, "Pish-tosh, my good man, it's only money," that's fine too. At least I know where I am now, and where that is is outta here...

  26. #26
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    The argument is not that they are equivalent.

    Politicians have us clamor for 'free universal healthcare' as well.

    Free roads, free public education, free public television, NPR, PBS, free over-the-air TV...none of it is free.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Well said, Amin.

    Good points about the reviews. DPreview provides a great amount of minutia in their camera reviews, but I find myself skipping over nearly all of it. Later, if I want to find how how much a camera weighs or some other obscure bit of info, it's very handy to use it as a reference. Reid Reviews approaches things from a different perspective and that approach is more helpful to me, in addition, there is a consistency across different tests such as lens testing. Unfortunately the flash interface gets in the way of easily bringing up a previous test to compare it to another one. I was not familiar with Diglloyd until this thread (thanks for the link, Jack.)

    Lastly, good point about nothing being free.
    I find with DPReview while there may be a lot of detail if you actually own the camera it can be a great resource. On cameras I've bought that they've reviewed the operation and controls sections where they demonstrate or talk about the operation of the camera you learn things that you don't get from the manual.

  28. #28
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Actually, I don't mind paying for value. And as I said initially, Sean does deliver. (Digilloyd too!) But as soon as I take the step of paying, the relationship has changed and I go from being a "visitor" to a "customer". As a customer, I'm willing to accept the self-service nature of the web delivery method. But I also expect a certain amount of customer service in return.

    The few posters in this thread are not the first or the only people to complain about the interface. After the quaintness wears off, and you've extracted the most pertinent information required for an imminent purchase, the reluctance to make any effort to enhance the clunky "delivery" method starts to feel uncomfortable. Arrogant even.

    It sounds corny, but once someone starts paying you with cash for your service, they're your customer. And as the saying goes (like it or not) the customer is always right. Ignore them and they go away.

  29. #29
    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    First off, it's always amazing to me how a thread starts out one way and then takes on a life of it's own. Absolutely wonderful example of discourse (even if heated) at its best.

    Amin,

    Excellent points. And thanks for bringing digilloyd to my attention (I think others may have mentioned it too but this time I took notice and clicked).

    That said. What's the big deal here? You have pay as you pick up magazines like Pop Photo or Chausser (I think that's the one) and scores of others I see at Borders and Barnes and Noble, loaded with ads and articles to read and highly opinionated reviews to get insights about various cameras.

    You pay nothing for sites like DPreview, Luminous Landscape and Ken Rockwell (who does a great job on Nikon gear).

    You can also go to scores of other sites like Camera Labs (which even has some videos of their reviews posted on youtube!), Digital Camera Info, Shutterbug (which is also a magazine you buy), Imaging Resource and scores of others. All filled with highly subjective, highly opinionated stuff we eagerly inhale so we can start forming a short list of possible candidates for gear or whatever. Again, all FREE. (The most powerful word in advertising, by the way. )

    If someone wants to charge you for their insights and approaches, let 'em. It's a free society. You're can either choose to pay. Or not. In Sean's case, as Amin mentioned, there are a number of 'sample' articles to get a sense of his approach that you DON'T have to pay for. And I assume if you like what you read then you'll go check it out to see if a subscription is going to be worth something for a year. (Please note his annual subscription is the same as most monthly porn sites. So let's get real about how much he's charging here.) Yeah I said at the outset his site is worth subscribing to. But that's my opinion and was merely sharing it with you as an photo enthusiast like everyone else here. And you can either go "Lemme check it out." Or, "Peter's full of crap! No way I'm gonna pay for the opinion of a some photo dude I don't know." Again, it's your choice.

    Like Terry I tend to agree that DPreview while it goes on a bit long if you own the camera it can be a great resource. But if I'm interested in the camera I don't have I will skip down past the initial stuff to see what their comparisons with other similar make models have unearthed and of course get to the conclusion and see sample shots of the same London landmarks from review to review (like Steve's Digicams of his Florida playground, desk kitsch and salt water kayaks.)

    For the most part I use these varied resources and cross reference them to make comparison notes like I did with the G1 on Pop Photo. There I may unearth some unusual information (assuming all measurements are equal as in the case of Pop Photo's G1 review when I was curious about what they measured with other cameras). I don't do it with every camera just the one or two I may be interested in purchasing (my short list if you will) like I was with the G1.

    On the one hand I am interested in how a camera's measured performance is. Things measured by the independent observers like resolution, color accuracy, noise expecations at various ISOs and so on. DPreview and Digital Camera Info are particularly good in that regard. Again with a little cross referencing you can determine a lot.

    But I'm also interested in what people who've used the camera have to say about it in terms of their experience. Is it too heavy. Is it fast enough? And the proverbial bottom line, how are the images? (Words and expressions like "jaw dropping" usually get my attention.) Often they provide not only subjective views but also put forth things they think about as photographers and why or why not a particular camera or lens meets that expectation. (Like if they're really into a camera that can fire off 8 shots in a row in RAW without pausing when I am a more deliberate see and shoot kinda guy who's own shooting experience never calls for that and feels that even at 3.5 fps I'm way ahead of what I was capable of with an M6, I'm not gonna hold it against the G1.) In short you glean their biases from their own prose just like you'd get an 'author's' message from a novel. This I use to decide the validity of their claims in terms of my own personal biases.

    I like Sean and there are things I like about what he says but there are others I take with a grain of salt because through his writings I've gotten to know where he stands on things. He's for the most part impartial but he like everyone here has certain biases and those I take into account as I read what he has experienced vs others.

    Like the cameras I prefer I like to make the decisions not someone (or something) else.

    Peter
    Last edited by peterb; 11th January 2009 at 10:53.
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    That's the beauty of the free market: one can choose the advertising-supported sites, or the subscriber-supported sites. Both can be successful if they provide services that customers want.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I asked Sean about the use of Flash. He uses it as a means of securing the content of his site. Of Course one can easily take a snapshot of any web page or portion thereof so it really only protects the content from easily being converted to text form. Personally, I don't think it is worth it to lose customers over this minimal kind of protection but Sean may see it differently. In any case he doesn't believe it is costing him customers since subscriptions are up.
    V/r John

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Well, just for contrarianism, I am a big fan of Sean Reid and his site. At $32 per year, you have access to much information of value. Is everything Sean says is "right"? Hardly. However he has a methodology for testing that if nothing else is consistent. From one camera to another or one lens to another the methodology is the same and as such makes comparisons possible.

    With that said, Sean's biases are his. Period!! Everyone has biases and his are there and well known. The beauty of this is that once you are calibrated to Sean's biases (which he freely admits) you can dial in your own factors as to how to relate and thus gain value from the review(s). He clearly favors DRF over DSLR and once known that tells you how he personally values various factors of each system.

    I disagree strongly as to his tendency to be pedantic. He values what he values and thus defends his choices of lenses and systems based on those values. No different than LL with Michael's biases. Both value real world images for evaluating lenses and systems rather than on more mechanical approaches a la Erwin Puts. I am not putting down Erwin either. If you get more from his approach, then value it more than others.

    I love this site and have been a workshop member and follower since the beginning. But i do not believe that random thoughts, experiences etc about cameras, lenses etc are in any way comparable to a well documented, well thought out review. We, as camera purchasers, end up with biases that color what we write and obviously then bias other potential purchasers. By the way, this certainly includes what I buy, write about and then, as many, if not most, of the contributors to this site do and then sell the products they buy for the next most appealing product. Nothing wrong with this so i am not wacking on anyone, but folks who are very susceptible to the opinions expressed may end up with products they bought on recommendation if not outright enthusiam by reviewers who then move on in a heartbeat. So as many have said, do your own diligence, including the expressed opinions on this site, and then make your own decisions after handling the products to see if they do what YOU want and need. Anything else is foolhardy.

    Just my humble opinion in hopes that it helps someone along the way

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Hey Woody - did your G1 arrive?

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Sean, felt that I had not fully expressed his views so with his permission I am quoting verbatim from his emails so that his full opinion will be expressed and not just what I thought was important.

    -----------------------------
    On Jan 11, 2009, at 1:06 PM, John Griffith wrote:

    Sean,
    There is a discussion in the GetDPI forum thread titled "Hey G1 Fans" in which your and other paid sites is being debated. The biggest complaint about your site is the use of Flash as the delivery/user interface vehicle. I have to admit that I don't care for it either. It occurred to me that I have never heard your reasoning and that in fairness to you we should hear your side of the story. The other thought I had was maybe you weren't aware that you were losing some subscribers because of that interface and that if you knew you might consider changing to a more user friendly interface. I would certainly like to hear your views on the subject.

    John

    John Griffith
    [email protected]



    Hi John,

    Thanks. I don't participate on that site but I am aware of the discussion as I've gotten several e-mails. It's in Flash for content security - not perfect security but better than html. I have a site developer and if we find a web medium that works better - yet is at least as secure, I'll look at it. I talk about the site format in the subscription instructions so that people can know the details ahead of time.

    Meanwhile, I'm up to my ears in prepping content which is always the heart of the site to me.

    Cheers,

    Sean

    BTW, despite the pros and cons of Flash the site's renewal rate has been quite good since it started. The interface isn't perfect but its not awful either and I personally like the complete lack of ads. Adding a search feature would be great and a linkable table of contents is in the works.

    Cheers,

    Sean

    Hi John,

    I just saw your post. Flash may be a problem for some but my point, overall, was that most people seem to get to the content pretty well. I also mentioned that I would consider other web mediums as well (if they provided security) but you didn't mention that in your post. I also said that most of my energy right now is going into the content of the site.

    It's interesting how things get filtered and translated.

    Cheers,

    Sean

    BTW, though, thanks for the comments on my photography.

    Cheers,

    Sean

    Sorry, I should have copied and pasted your post. I didn't mean to leave out your other comment but since it seemed tenuous I did not want to give the impression you were about to change either. I did some experimenting with your site and what I find is that on Safari it is very slow and does not scroll easily from the mouse. On Windows with IE or Firefox it isn't so slow. Since many photographers use Macs and Safari you might want to test and compare using both IE and Safari. Apparently Adobe did not build the same performance into each Flash plug-in. If you like I will correct the post since I don't mean to give the wrong impression for you.

    John

    Hi John,

    That would be great, thank you. As I said, I am interested in looking at other ways of presenting the site but more pressing to me is the need to finish up the many reviews and articles that are already in progress. I'm swimming in Zeiss lenses for example. Given the choice of halting new content to focus on the site format vs. finishing these articles, I favor the latter.

    The slowness of the site, to whatever degree it is there, largely has to do with the fact that the pictures are compressed at level 9. That's not usual but it is done for good reason. I view the site primarily using Safari on a Mac Pro and it doesn't seem that slow to me over DSL.

    The format of the site is important but I also think there's a danger of people fixating on that and overlooking the heart of the site which is the content. The approach, the essays, they're what I care most about.

    Cheers,

    Sean

    ------------------------

    This should clarify any confusion I might have caused.
    V/r John

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I am a great believer of recommending stuff that works for me to my friends... it's a major reason I frequent the forums, to listen to the advice, warnings and recommendations of my peers - and to offer what I can of my own experience in return.

    This is all free information - and has zero guarantee of accuracy - opinions, as they say differ.

    When it comes to more formal, well disciplined and structured reviews I look to the big commercial sites like dpreview - but there's always a niggling doubt about commercial drivers affecting the reviewers' weighting...

    With Sean's reviews, I just feel that I'm paying for Sean's time in producing the material there - it's all up front and any bias is simply a reflection of his experience as a photographer.

    This is a complicated space, and there is no such thing as a free lunch... someone somewhere has to pay for the material - I like Sean's model, and it looks like more and more people agree it's worth the repeat subscription.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Woody, John...nicely put.

    John, thanks sharing your exchange with Sean.

    Peter
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Hey Woody - did your G1 arrive?
    Not yet Terry but I am anxiously awaiting. If it is what I hope (and what many of you have shown here) I will probably sell one of my M8's and use the G1 as my M spare. (Alongside the M7 with film)

    Woody

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Two personal Observation on the G1.

    1) Looks like G1 hit a "Home Run"
    2) Looks like G1 is fast becoming the "M Spare"/"M8 Backup"

    I am still enjoying with my G1, waiting for my 4/3 to m4/3 adapter, 45-200mmm lens. and M adapter. With my G1, I can use all my M, LTM, R and 4/3 and m4/3 lens. This is just amazing. I never had a camera that can do that. With the prices falling, I may even get a Backup G1. Wonder if they sell only the body.

    Robert.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Not yet Terry but I am anxiously awaiting. If it is what I hope (and what many of you have shown here) I will probably sell one of my M8's and use the G1 as my M spare. (Alongside the M7 with film)

    Woody
    In your dreams Woody.
    The G1 is a wonderful step forward, and it shows real prospects for the future, but the idea that it's an M8 substitute is (IMHO of course) one step too far.

    Granted, it's easier to focus M lenses accurately on the G1 in good light . . . .but then, was that a problem? As for the image quality, compared to compact cameras (like the D-lux4, ricoh GRDII etc) the G1 is stellar - wonderful - spectacular . . . compared to an M8 file it's simply 'okay'.

    The EVF is really good, so much better than any other one I've seen, but there is the problem that by the time you've seen something . . . it's finished. Catching fleeting expressions in people is simply a non-starter.

    Right - Grumpy Old Man Mode off.

    Just don't be too quick to sell that M8!

    Just this guy you know

  40. #40
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I like this thread. It's shown me there's a site I never heard of before.

    AND it's shown me that I don't need, nor care, to go there.

    To GetDPI I say thanks, you've saved me tremendous time and energy that I have so little to spare in the first place. I certainly can't waste it on arrogance.

    I enjoy what I've read and learned here. The community is great and I also learned I have to start clicking on more ads !!

    Take care all, Spring is soon arriving.

    -Bill Lynch, Mission Viejo, Ca

    =======

    ... I don't see any ads. I have no blockers; am I doing something wrong???

  41. #41
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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    In your dreams Woody.
    The G1 is a wonderful step forward, and it shows real prospects for the future, but the idea that it's an M8 substitute is (IMHO of course) one step too far.
    Looks like Woody would sell *one* of his M8s...so it would be complementary, not a substitute.

    Granted, it's easier to focus M lenses accurately on the G1 in good light . . . .but then, was that a problem?
    For me, actually it was. Certainly not for all others.

    As for the image quality, compared to compact cameras (like the D-lux4, ricoh GRDII etc) the G1 is stellar - wonderful - spectacular . . . compared to an M8 file it's simply 'okay'.
    Considering the price differential...oh, well, don't need to say much else.

    The EVF is really good, so much better than any other one I've seen, but there is the problem that by the time you've seen something . . . it's finished. Catching fleeting expressions in people is simply a non-starter.
    Haven't seen this non-starter yet. Did you see the portrait Brian posted?

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Jono,
    I realize that you are an M8 aficionado; however, by any objective measures I think the G1 files are as good as or often better than those produced by the M8. It has higher resoultion, less noise and better white balance and color accuracy. The JPGs are extremely good and the RAW files are quite maleable. The only place I see the M8 having more capability is in dynamic range and of course the RF type of viewfinder, though it has its own limitations and problems. As to requiring good light to focus manually, I think the G1 is much easier to focus in low light than the M8. I believe others here have found the same.
    V/r John

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Looks like Woody would sell *one* of his M8s...so it would be complementary, not a substitute.
    Hmm - to be honest, this was exactly what I had in mind when I bought the G1, and in some respects it's exceeded my expectations


    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    For me, actually it was. Certainly not for all others.

    Considering the price differential...oh, well, don't need to say much else.
    I didn't think we were discussing price - and I'm sure that Woody wouldn'tbe
    Still, I'll accept a variation of opinion on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Haven't seen this non-starter yet. Did you see the portrait Brian posted?
    Yes, but we all get lucky . . . Seriously though, I wasn't talking about portraits, I was talking about candids, when the moment is sooo fleeting. I'm really impressed with the EVF of the G1 . . . but it's still true that shooting candids of people, what you get is something quite other then what you saw.
    Last edited by jonoslack; 12th January 2009 at 15:16.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Jono,
    I realize that you are an M8 aficionado; however, by any objective measures I think the G1 files are as good as or often better than those produced by the M8. It has higher resoultion, less noise and better white balance and color accuracy. The JPGs are extremely good and the RAW files are quite maleable. The only place I see the M8 having more capability is in dynamic range and of course the RF type of viewfinder, though it has its own limitations and problems. As to requiring good light to focus manually, I think the G1 is much easier to focus in low light than the M8. I believe others here have found the same.
    HI John
    I don't think I'm any kind of aficionado - except possibly to the A900, but we all have our weakspots!
    I'm not sure what kind of objective measures you are using, and I'm not criticising the G1 files (I think they're excellent) but (again in my humble opinion) the RAW files simply don't have the perzang and presence of the M8 files (or the resolution, come to that).
    White balance and jpgs on the M8 are rubbish - I've said it to Leica too (oh YES).
    Focusing is excellent on the g1 - REALLY excellent, but if what you are focusing on is where the subject was 1/100th second ago . .

    I did say, I think the G1 is a splendid step forward . . . and as a lightweight 'do anything' camera it's in a different league from the M8, but as a substitute M8 . . no.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Is there a camera out there with shutter lag less than 0.01 sec? I'd like to know! That's what you'd need not to miss that facial expression. My D700 is 4x that long...and it's PDQ.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Is there a camera out there with shutter lag less than 0.01 sec? I'd like to know! That's what you'd need not to miss that facial expression. My D700 is 4x that long...and it's PDQ.
    It isn't about shutter lag, it's about visuals and response. All I know, is that when I've been shooting the G1 in low light with people, the picture I get is something quite other than the picture I saw in the viewfinder (maybe I have eye-lag with EVF viewfinders).

    You can quote any figures you like, but you won't convince me that my experience isn't true! (for me at least)

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    I understand what you are saying. I'm just saying that if you use the figure 1/100s, even if your focus is infinitely fast, shutter lag isn't. The shot will still be lost.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I understand what you are saying. I'm just saying that if you use the figure 1/100s, even if your focus is infinitely fast, shutter lag isn't. The shot will still be lost.
    the 1/100s was plucked from the air (silly me), but if you understand what I'm saying then that's fine.

    I think that with an optical viewfinder (and practice) there's a whole business about anticipation and response, which really doesn't work that well with an EVF, but hey - it's my opinion, and I'm not trying to present it as a universal truth - simply that if you're used to using an RF (and like it) then you'll find the EVF on the G1 troublesome, even if it is the best EVF ever made!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    All in good fun. Every camera will miss that expression if it is only around for 1/100.

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    Re: Hey G1 fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    (maybe I have eye-lag with EVF viewfinders).
    Maybe that's a part of it. The slowness of EVFs does something to my concentration and ability to shoot a changing scene precisely, even if the EVF updates fast enough, at least theoretically. It's more the fact that there is a lag, as short as it may be, and how that changes my attitude. More of a brain-lag than an eye-lag, but still...

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