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Thread: G1 Urgent question!!!!

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Hi,

    I just bought a nikon D90 and I have found out that the live view serves only for framing...while I was looking for a DSLR that would allow me to use the LCD like a compact and view the final image. Do you know if the Lumix G1 does this??? I'm still in time to return the D90 but I need to do it FAST!

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    Super Moderator Cindy Flood's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Rafa,
    You can do that with the G1. You can even hold the G1 in your hand down by your waist and compose and focus from there.
    Can you go to the store and play with the G1? It is really a different animal than the Nikon.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    I took a couple of photos with the D90 and the dynamic range and definition are out of this world...but coming from 8 years working with video I REALLY need the commodity of the LCD for the final result. I know the G1 it's not as powerful a beast as the D90...but it'll just have to do for now. Another option would be a Canon 1000D/rebel XS (but I'm still pending a similar response from users to see what's the live view like).

    Thanks, Cindy.

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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    FWIW, the G1's rear LCD is a swing-out-and-tilt style; you can view it low, sideways or held high above your head, or even fold it in on itself for protection. It is assumed this is common knowledge, but I didn't know it either until I went to the store to see it in person.
    Jack
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    HI Cindy
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I took a couple of photos with the D90 and the dynamic range and definition are out of this world..
    You shouldn't find the image quality of the G1 to be much less good than that of the D90 (if at all) - the sensor is a little smaller, but not that much, and the lenses are arguably considerably better than the Nikon kit lenses.

    The downside might be the lack of an optical viewfinder as well, but the EVF is very good - especially if you're coming from video

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    I am from the old school. Among the cameras I used include a Rollei TLR, a Sony R1, and now the G1. I love the waist level finder for shooting my grandchildren. After I frame the kids, providing they do not move, I can maintain eye contact with them and shoot with the camera at their level. On a camera as large as the G1, unless the camera is on a tripod, I generally use the EVF. I find, given the slow kit lens I have, I cannot hold the camera steady enough holding the camera with my arms extended compared to using the EVF. I have both an LX3 and G9, their lenses are faster and they are lighter and holding them steady with arms extended is easier.

    Good luck with your decision.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    I had the D90 and the G1 at the same time and did many comparison shots. I finally returned the D90 and kept the G1. My reasons were:
    1. Much smaller and lighter and less obtrusive when taken to social events
    2. Better kit lenses and much smaller and lighter
    3. Better white balance by far and more accurate color rendition of skin tones
    4. Less noise at the ISOs below 800 (the Nikon was much better above 800 but I see these small black specs in the image that bothered me and the image never seemed as sharp on the D90
    5. Ability to use Leica lenses
    6. Cost less too which was a bonus
    7. Articulating LCD
    8. Better and easier manual focus

    The only thing you give up is the faster shooting speed, an optical view finder and better high ISO capability and movie mode which I never even tried.

    By the way when I would show my wife images taken with each camera (she didn't know which camera took the images) she would always pick the G1 imageas over the D90 images though she didn't know why, just that she liked them better.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Thanks for all the replies, guys. But it is still not clear. What I mean is (eg.) when you close the shutter on a compact you can see the image getting darker and when you take the photo it is a replica of what you were seeing on the lcd. On the D90 you could close the shutter, increase the iso, whatever and the image on the LCD with live view stayed the same. What I'd like to know is if the G1 employs the live view like the D90 or like a compact?

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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Thanks for all the replies, guys. But it is still not clear. What I mean is (eg.) when you close the shutter on a compact you can see the image getting darker and when you take the photo it is a replica of what you were seeing on the lcd. On the D90 you could close the shutter, increase the iso, whatever and the image on the LCD with live view stayed the same. What I'd like to know is if the G1 employs the live view like the D90 or like a compact?
    Hi Rawfa,

    I'm not sure how the D90 does things (I'd held one but didn't check out its live view mode). When using the D90 in its vaunted HDTV mode do you peer through the viewfinder or the LCD on the back for capture? (BarJohn can probably answer this better having bought and returned one.) I suspect live view on the D90 is only via the rear LCD since the viewfinder which is totally optical would have to be blacked out due to the mirror having to be out of the way for continuous shooting in live to work.

    On the G1 it's only live view where ever you look. Whether you're using the articulating rear LCD or the superb HD EVF in the finder. With the micro 4/3s approach to camera design there is no optical mirror box. No optical finder. WYSISYG. That live view remains on right up until the moment you take the picture where there is a brief, fractional blackout as the camera takes the picture. And this is true of either the G1 or the D90. Or any sensor-viewfinder linked camera.

    As far as live view compacts go, I'm not familiar with any of them. But again I would surmise those that have an EVF as well as a rear LCD would be identical in concept (although no other viewfinder EVFs to my knowledge matches the quality of the one in the G1. Others would merely have a rear LCD for live view and an optical peep which does not display what the camera sensor will ultimately see (being a separate viewfinder that's not linked in any way).

    Now if part of the reason of your interest in the D90 (coming from a video background) is to take advantage of the cameras video capability (and if what I just read the other day on DPreview.com is correct and there are 2GB SD cards on the horizon that could be incredible) then you have a major point of difference. The G1 despite having live view has no video capability.

    As others have mentioned, while the D90 will give you better imaging performance in terms of noise and the like at ISO's above 1600, below 400 the G1 will equal it. The D90 was noted for its color accuracy but the G1 again beats it (along with every other camera extant from what I can tell). Also resolution is a tad higher on the G1 than the D90: 2370 vs. 2315 (but we're splitting hairs here).

    Hope that helps.

    Peter
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Thanks, Peter. That was very helpful. I ended up giving back the D90 for a refund and I'm now researching between the G1 or a Canon 1000D/ Rebel XS. To be honest I thought the video abilities of the D90 left a lot to be desired, but I the picture quality was REALLY incredible! I mean, the dynamic range was EXCELLENT...and here is where the G1 scares me a little bit with it's smaller sensor. I really need to do some more research and try to get my hands on these cameras...I'm finding it hard to find people to vouch for the Canon 1000D/ Rebel XS here at the forum.

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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    I have a canon G7, while it has an optical viewfinder it is not highly accurate. It also has an LCD on the back that is the primary way the camera is used. When the shutter fires it briefly blanks the LCD on the back. This appears to be common for P&S cameras. The G1 behaves exactly the same relative to the rear LCD and the EVF. It does not have pure optical VF. The D90 blanks out the viewfinder in live view because the mirror must be raised. The G1 has no mirror to raise.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Thanks, Peter. That was very helpful. I ended up giving back the D90 for a refund and I'm now researching between the G1 or a Canon 1000D/ Rebel XS. To be honest I thought the video abilities of the D90 left a lot to be desired, but I the picture quality was REALLY incredible! I mean, the dynamic range was EXCELLENT...and here is where the G1 scares me a little bit with it's smaller sensor. I really need to do some more research and try to get my hands on these cameras...I'm finding it hard to find people to vouch for the Canon 1000D/ Rebel XS here at the forum.

    Rawfa,

    I'd heard that the video quality on the D90 sucked too. Now as far as image quality goes, fear not. While the 4/3s sensor is small, it's not THAT small. Just a tad smaller than the D90's and Canon Rebel's APS sized sensor (remember it's a scaled up 4x3 sensor, and that's it). Pixel density is 5 mp /cm2 (million pixels per square centimeter) vs 3.3 mp/cm2. While at first blush may seem significant, it really isn't when you consider that point and shoots come in around 33- 36 mp/cm2.

    That said consider the following facts that I gleaned from Pop Photo:

    Image quality from ISO 100 to 400 is the same as the D90 and the Rebel. At 800 it falls just slightly. And then starts to fall after that. Here both the Rebel and D90 beat the G1. No argument.

    Resolution: 2370 lines per millimeter. That's typically beaten out by cameras with larger sensors. But for some reason beats out the D90 and D300. The Rebel comes in at 2265. (The $5500 M8 by the way comes in at 2230).

    Color accuracy: One word, unsurpassed. The best score of all cameras tested so far.

    Noise: Until 400 it beats the D90 and Canon. At 800 it's only slightly worse. At 1600 and beyond..well let's say this ain't a camera for those needs.

    I think part of the success is the fact that Panasonic which has long been plagued with less than stellar image processors may have finally hit its stride with the processor they put in this one (known as the Venus HD engine). So noise is really down while image quality is high with this camera's use of the 4/3s sensor.

    From what I've seen the camera exhibits phenomonal dynamic range, too.

    The autofocus employs a technology called "contrast detection" which uses an approach that focuses directly on the sensor itself. This (if you'll excuse the pun) is in contrast to the "phase detection' used by DSLR's. Interestingly, all prior usage of this contrast detection were in very slow point and shoots. For reasons I'm not technically knowledgeable to address here, on the G1 the AF speed using contrast detection rivals DSLR's. Is it as fast as a five grand Canon D1? No, but from most user's experience I've read here, including my own, it's apparently fast enough.

    I would not recommend this camera if you plan on applying for work at Sports Illustrated. There are far better machines out there that can focus and shoot faster, more repeatedly than the G1 (like the Rebel you're interested in). But for what I would consider (at least from what I've observed) 94% of all shooters out there, the G1 more than delivers the goods. Even on the occasional rapid fire situations, which at 3.5 fps, shooting RAW, I think you'll find more than adequate.

    Optics are the real excitement here. The kit lens, which while somewhat disappointingly slow by light gathering standards, is a very very good lens. The sharpness, contrast and freedom from chromatic aberration are, indeed, excellent as can be judged by some of the images that have been posted here. There is also a 45-200mm lens which completes the introductory package. All told you would be covering the equivalent of 28 - 400mm with just two lenses. Panasonic is promising faster lenses, starting with a 20mm f1.7 lens that many are eagerly awaiting as well as others for release later this year.

    Being a micro 4/3s camera which means it's got the same sensor as a regular 4/3s camera, with an adapter that makes up the difference in distance between where a lens designed for a 4/3s camera would be mounted and this one, you have access to some really fine optics from Panasonic/Leica and Olympus. Panasonic has already a 25mm f1.4 prime lens from Leica that, even with the Panasonic adapter still has AF capability. This is extremely sharp and contrasty. And it has a very pleasing bokeh (background blur). The same holds true for a 14-50mm f2.8-3.5 Leica Zoom and another zoom.

    Olympus, on the other hand, has made some lenses that are nothing short of jaw dropping in their image making. I've seen some of the results on these pages and flickr that are simply amazing. (Unfortunately, some of these optics come with some equally jaw-dropping price tags...they are not for the faint of heart.) Of particular note are a 7-14mm f4.0, 14-35mm f2.0 (yes you read that correctly!), 35-100mm f2.0 (yep..this one too) zooms that give you the range in 35mm speak of 14 - 200mm in three amazing pieces of glass. There are other single primes too that are equally breathtaking. There is also a noteable 12-60mm f2.8 that with one lens gives you the equivalent of 24 - 120mm which is a superb single lens to have. I should warn you, however, the Olympus lenses are not coupled as of yet to the autofocus and must therefore be focused manually. This may change in time due to firmware but I suspect that as Olympus gets into the micro 4/3 fray, they will offer some equivalent zooms that work in this format.

    Now for the good stuff. Adapters from other manufacturers that are allowing you to mount the crown jewels of optics: rangefinder lenses from Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander. Yes they'll be manually focused and manually set for the aperture, but with the G1's focusing patch, it will be swift and highly accurate. Early reports show this has an extremely high potential. Particularly if you have access to some of their fast f2.0 to f1.0 optics which would be serve the camera well with its impressive imaging characteristics at ISOs of 800 and under, able RAW handling and live EVF manual focusing which eliminates focus errors. And, in short, you've got a formidable picture taking machine that can take on just about anything.

    Not bad for a 'small sensor' you were concerned about eh?

    If you shoot RAW and process Raw you will end up with files in the 69 Mb range which at a typical 240 dpi on a good printer will yield a very high quality 12.5 by 16.6 print.

    Some reviewers have suggested the Rebel XS is a better bang for the buck. That's subjective. The Rebel has access to Canon's superb optics some of which are legendary. This is true. No adapters necessary. Also it's blazingly fast. And can produce wonderfully clean images high into the ISO stratosphere. But to me it's sooo old school. (Sorry.)

    When you consider the smaller size and the ability to mount some of the world's most treasured optics coupled with what appears to be equally excellent images that equal or surpass the Rebel at ISO's of 800 or under along with its superb live view EVF (well that's subjective vs the Rebels optical finder) and articulating rear LCD (which can seem like a Hasselbad's ground glass viewing screen), all in all there are a lot of compelling reasons to go with the G1 over the Rebel.

    As others here would easily attest.

    Peter
    Last edited by peterb; 10th January 2009 at 16:23.
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Peter, if I had not already bought my G1, I would definitely buy one now. Great comparison. I'm a Canon shooter with both a FF, 2-1.6x and a G9---and I'm loving the G1.

    Diane

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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    This is kind of relevant to the conversation so I thought I'd pop in. I was playing with the E-30 at the store today since it supports contrast AF with some lenses. It had the new 14-54 kit lens on it. Although it works like the G1, it's MUCH slower. It seemed to focus through the entire range then pick the point at which it was best. I was disappointed with the performance, but it could probably be improved upon some in software. I hope Oly's m4/3 offering is better performing.

    @Peter, according to Oly's firmware the 35-100/2 supports contrast AF. It would probably look a little weird on the G1, but I imagine the images would be stunning.
    Charles - flickr

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    Wow, thanks for all the detailed information, guys. There are many things that atract me to the G1 and to be honest I really want the G1 to be the winner here. But for around 500€ you can have the Canon 1000d/ rebel xs with a sigma 18-200mm and not ever have to worry about changing lenses (and if I want more, Canon has an arsenal of good material that WILL autofocus with no need of adapting other optics). The G1 on the other hand has the amazing size factor and the incredible LCD...BUT where am I going to get a 18-200mm (or even a 18-100mm for that matter). So, while the G1 is smaller than the 1000D /rebel XS it is more expensive and it will force me to have 2 lenses, which will trow the portability factor out the window (more or less). The only want to decide this will be to do a test drive with both cameras and see which one suits my needs best. Thanks all anyway, guys.

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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    When the HD video version later this is released later this year it will have a 14-140mm lens with it that should satisfy your need for a single lens. If Panasonic's 14-150mm for 4/3s is any sign it should be high quality too. You'll get a tiny 20/1.7 for those times you need a fast lens too. So either wait a bit longer, or plan to buy the lens later when it's released.
    Charles - flickr

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    The 14-150mm is a very expensive piece of glass compared to what Canon has to offer. But if the HD version proves to be better than the crapy video quality that the D90 has then I might just take one.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: G1 Urgent question!!!!

    I messed around VERy briefly with the Canon Rebel XSi and the live view is for framing only...which leaves me the G1 as the last option. I'm very worry though, since I'm yet to see the type of performance from the G1 the Canon can output. Also, one of the most important things for me in a camera is dynamic range and Canon's dynamic range is even superior to Nikons' D90 and WAY superior to the G1's (http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/con...Resolution.htm). Another big limitation is lens. I REALLY want one lens for everything and the micro four thirds (or four thirds for that matter) are WAY more expensive than old school brands like Nikon and Canon.

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