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Thread: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

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    Senior Member RichA's Avatar
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    Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    I've looked at lots of examples and I believe the M5 has an edge in sharpness, resolution and contrast. Noise seems about the same. I like the M1 body, but they did something to the camera that changed the image look from the M5. The difference is small, but it reminded me a lot of the image differences between Nikon's D800 and D800E. It is almost like a slight veil is lifted from the lens. I have not compared the M1 and M5 directly, only gone off the review site's comparisons, however.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    I've looked at lots of examples and I believe the M5 has an edge in sharpness, resolution and contrast. Noise seems about the same. I like the M1 body, but they did something to the camera that changed the image look from the M5. The difference is small, but it reminded me a lot of the image differences between Nikon's D800 and D800E. It is almost like a slight veil is lifted from the lens. I have not compared the M1 and M5 directly, only gone off the review site's comparisons, however.
    I own both and I absolutely prefer the look of the EM1 files. Clear to see the advantage of no AA filter (much more detail) and also IMHO the EM1 manages WB much and exposure slightly better than the EM5.

    Not to talk about the better IBIS and the better grip and feel (for my type of use).

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I own both and I absolutely prefer the look of the EM1 files. Clear to see the advantage of no AA filter (much more detail) and also IMHO the EM1 manages WB much and exposure slightly better than the EM5.

    Not to talk about the better IBIS and the better grip and feel (for my type of use).
    Hmmm...I tested both and I found the EM5 to perform slightly better. The lack of AA filter in the EM1 is somewhat of a myth, as Olympus makes no such claim and there is indeed a low-pass filter in that camera, whether or not they call it an AA filter. Personally, I found sharpness (accutance) to be slightly better on the EM5 at least with really good lenses, as also found by DxOmark.com (e.g., dxomark reports images with the Olympus 75mm/1.8 to have sharpness rating of 12MPix on EM1, while 13MPix on EM5). So, it is patently false that the EM1 produces sharper images than the EM5.

    However, the biggest problem with the EM1 is the banding/striping produced by the new phase detect AF sensels of its sensor. Many images (and video) are ruined because of this. It only happens under certain lighting conditions, but nevertheless it never happens with the EM5. This is a serious flaw with the EM1 sensor, and Olympus is painfully aware of it. Someone recently posted images of the defect on eoshd.com.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by RichA View Post
    I've looked at lots of examples and I believe the M5 has an edge in sharpness, resolution and contrast. Noise seems about the same. I like the M1 body, but they did something to the camera that changed the image look from the M5. The difference is small, but it reminded me a lot of the image differences between Nikon's D800 and D800E. It is almost like a slight veil is lifted from the lens. I have not compared the M1 and M5 directly, only gone off the review site's comparisons, however.
    When the E-M1 was issued, i thought very hard about it : i wanted the 12-40mm and there was an appreciable rebate when getting the kit. I went to an Olympus demo back in october, but found that while some buttons were nicely placed for my hands, not all where. The backwheel was a little to high for my hands (the same reason why i'm not using the horizontal grip on the E-M5) and lastly, i appreciate the smaller form factor of the E-M5. The VF was superb however and very tempting. So it was a hard decision, but in the end i stayed with the E-M5.

    Later when the DXO results appeared, i was a little surprised, but the E-M5 seems to have an edge, or their evaluation have changed, or the on sensor PDAF comes at a price.. Or this is due to the new much faster processing engine ?

    One sure problem is that when using the E-M1 without long exposure noise reduction (aka without dark frame subtraction) it is much more noisy than the E-M5 : a real problem for astro photography. This was clearly demonstrated by different photographers on the DPReview forum.

    So in the end, while i regreat the new VF4 like finder, i'm happy with my decision. All the more so that i don't need PDAF. However, unless you need long exposure without darkframe substraction, in usual shooting conditions, there is no clear difference between the two cameras.

    PS : It is curious, i just checked the DXO results and now the E-M1 is getting slightly better results than the E-M5, save for noise : http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...E-M5___909_793

    I remember that people were having issues with the GX7 results and in the comment section at the time i wondered about the compared results of the E-M1 and E-M5.. May be that they checked their results again.. I didn't follow up at the time.

    Those difference are minimal, but when you look at the lenses results, they do systematically show somewhat less resolution than when put on the E-M5 sensor although i didn't check it right now).
    Last edited by Annna T; 18th January 2014 at 00:42. Reason: Adding a link to DXO results
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    So in the end, while i regreat the new VF4 like finder, i'm happy with my decision. All the more so that i don't need PDAF. However, unless you need long exposure without darkframe substraction, in usual shooting conditions, there is no clear difference between the two cameras.
    So maybe the answer is to use an E-P5 with the VF-4?

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    So maybe the answer is to use an E-P5 with the VF-4?
    I was considering that as well, I have a white E-P3 with VF2 and loved it. The buttons' position and the two dials were perfect for my hands. But in the end, the optional VF, which i always kept on, makes the camera a little too cumbersome. I tried the E-P5 with VF-4 and was somewhat tempted to get a white one again, but then decided to wait to see what the successor of the E-M5 would be.

    May be that I'm recovering from my acute GAS syndrom ? (Although i should stop lurking in the Sony A7 threads ..). I have got 6 cameras in 5 years, but since the E-M5 the MFT system has matured and is good enough for what i do.

    Right now, i'm busy clearing my cupboard of unused bodies. I sold my M6 and 35mm F2, because it is a sin to keep an unused Leica in a cupboard. I sold a Panasonic G3 with the 14-45mm and gave my lovely E-P3 to my sister right this afternoon. The 5D is on sale at the same brick and mortar shop, but contrary to what the shop owner told me, there are apparently less amateurs for it than for the M6 and G3.

    If i hadn't updated my classic 5D to a 6D last June, i may have gone for an A7. But as is, i feel that i should rather just use the gear i have, practice and stop looking at fear forum. More pixels won't make me a better photographer anyway.. Although i could make use of more DR <grin>

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    I'm not picky enough to get into these discussions as a rule... but I have both an E-P5 (with VF4) and the E-M1. Presumably the 75/1.8 is the lens to compare them with. Can I assume that the masterful qualities of the E-M5 are completely shared by the E-P5, so that comparing these two will also address the question of E-M5 vs E-M1? The press descriptions at the time the E-P5 was introduced left me thinking that it was the same sensor and the same image processing chip as the E-M5.

    scott

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I'm not picky enough to get into these discussions as a rule... but I have both an E-P5 (with VF4) and the E-M1. Presumably the 75/1.8 is the lens to compare them with. Can I assume that the masterful qualities of the E-M5 are completely shared by the E-P5, so that comparing these two will also address the question of E-M5 vs E-M1? The press descriptions at the time the E-P5 was introduced left me thinking that it was the same sensor and the same image processing chip as the E-M5.

    scott
    To make it short, yes : here are the DXO results :

    here are the DXO results

    I don't know exactly to what the mpix correspond, but they measure resolution. Compared to the E-M1, E-M5 or E-P5, E-Pl5 and E-Pm2, the GX7 and GH2 get much lower results. The GH3 does better but people think that it has the same sensor as the E-M5.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    The GH3 sensor shows the least sharpness of these cameras. Here is a summary from sharpest to least sharp, according to DxO measurements:

    1. EM5 (rating = 13)
    2. EM1 + EP5 (rating = 12)
    3. GH3 (rating = 11)

    However, I would actually rate the EM1 much lower due to its banding issue. None of the other sensors exhibit this problem. For convenience, attached below is a photo of the EM1 sensor that shows the banding on it. It is an unfortunate by-product of the new phase detection AF that was introduced on the EM1 in order to support legacy four thirds lenses.

    So, if you are on the fence about getting/upgrading to the EM1, it might be best to wait until this issue is addressed (most likely the next EMx camera though). Unfortunately, this is something that may not be fixable via firmware, as it is part of the actual sensor on the EM1. Users are waiting for a response from Olympus, but it sounds like they do not want to issue a recall.

    My guess is that Olympus will probably release another camera very soon without the phase detection sensels on it that are causing the problem.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    I'm not sure if I understand this discussion. The best arguments for buying the E-M1 over the E-M5 are the PD AF and the ergonomics. For most other purposes, the images will be impossible to tell apart for most viewers, myself included. That would make the E-M5 much better value for money.
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Well, besides PD AF and ergonomics I think also IBIS and continuous tracking are better in the E-M1.
    If these features don't matter to get the shot then the E-M5 seems at least equal in IQ to the E-M1.

    Isn't there also some advanced processing, like diffraction correction, that takes place in the E-M1 for native Olympus lenses? I am not aware that this feature is available in the E-M5.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    I'm renting one for an upcoming weekend shoot in Yosemite. Should be fun to compare.

    Doug

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    However, the biggest problem with the EM1 is the banding/striping produced by the new phase detect AF sensels of its sensor. Many images (and video) are ruined because of this. It only happens under certain lighting conditions, but nevertheless it never happens with the EM5. This is a serious flaw with the EM1 sensor, and Olympus is painfully aware of it. Someone recently posted images of the defect on eoshd.com.
    The report on Eoshd.com is the only mention I've seen of this. The author doesn't say what lens he used. He does write that he has only shot video (not stills) with the camera. Are there any other examples of this problem? Has anyone seen it in stills? If so, with what lenses?

    With all of the people shooting the E-M1 for the past few months, I would think that this would have been widely reported if it were indeed a serious flaw. If only one person has seen it and only in video, then it may not be much of a problem.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    It's always a hair-pulling nightmare to read these camera/lens-comparison threads where people swear opposite conclusions and ... --maybe I need to drink a stronger tea. Somewhere there's this voice from a LensRentals fellow who's done a fair bit of his own comparisons and makes a point about sample variations which might bear on this discussion.

    Meanwhile, over on LuLa (where lowly $500 G10s can match Hassy MedFormats which can trump high-DSLRs even at 30' in small prints ... !), comes that fashion fotog m43 fan BCooter proclaiming his luv for E-M5 files, over E-M1 & 1DX no less (and over in-store-tested A7 (r-less)). He likes the "film-like look" and decent behavior into moderate ISOs (neverminding ISO xxx_000!). Haven't seen any mentions of banding; some are (un)lucky, I guess.

    A7r Shutter shake!!!

    Godfrey's wisdom is to ignore all this back'n'forth pixel-pinching by recognizing a practical bar of goodness that they are these days all surely going to meet and likely surpass. ... , GH3, E-M5, GX7, E-M1, GM1, E-P5, ...

    And then the DxO results go ping-ponging?
    Okay, where are my dice!

    -d.
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by drofnad View Post
    ...
    Godfrey's wisdom is to ignore all this back'n'forth pixel-pinching by recognizing a practical bar of goodness that they are these days all surely going to meet and likely surpass. ...
    Thank you.

    I no longer fears that any new camera beyond a certain price level is going to be insufficiently capable to satisfy me in terms of picture quality. What I like using, what inspires me to make photographs, remains a one by one challenge to discover.

    The E-M1 is meeting my smile quotient handily at present. I've got an A7 sitting on the shelf, waiting for the Leica R mount adapter to arrive, so I can see how I like it and get some use out of these lovely old lenses on the shelf next to it. And yesterday I did some shooting with the Polaroid Spectra Pro again ...

    The adventure continues. :-)

    G
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    I've been going back and forth. Shot an EM5 for a year or so with good results. Had to use the half grip though to get it near comfortable. I ended up picking up a gH3 for work to do mostly video but have been shooting stills as well. Sold the EM5 in anticipation of getting an EM1. While sorting that out also got a GM1 which is really quite fun due to the size and portability.

    Long story short, I finally picked up an EM1, shot it for a few hours, then sent it back. In my hands and looking at my files, the only significant advantage I felt was the IBIS. The ergos on the EM1 were better than the EM5 alone, but not as good as the EM5 with battery grip (sans battery portion). IQ between the Pannys and the EM1 was a wash - again, for my needs. And frankly I hated the shutter on the EM1. One of the worst I've felt. No feedback on travel and all of the sudden it shoots. Two other ones I handled in stores felt the same so seems to be a feature, not a bug. Surprised this doesn't get mentioned more.

    Ergos are personal so that's something that can be hard to predict. I took the GH3 for 2 hour walkabout last night and handheld it single hand almost the entire time with good comfort 12-35/2.8 on it. Now I'm back to pondering the A7 as I know I'd get an IQ bump for some stuff, just not sure if my lazy run-and-gun style fits it well. As always, ymmv and consider the gas behind the decisions :-D

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I've been going back and forth. Shot an EM5 for a year or so with good results. Had to use the half grip though to get it near comfortable. I ended up picking up a gH3 for work to do mostly video but have been shooting stills as well. Sold the EM5 in anticipation of getting an EM1. While sorting that out also got a GM1 which is really quite fun due to the size and portability.

    Long story short, I finally picked up an EM1, shot it for a few hours, then sent it back. In my hands and looking at my files, the only significant advantage I felt was the IBIS. The ergos on the EM1 were better than the EM5 alone, but not as good as the EM5 with battery grip (sans battery portion). IQ between the Pannys and the EM1 was a wash - again, for my needs. And frankly I hated the shutter on the EM1. One of the worst I've felt. No feedback on travel and all of the sudden it shoots. Two other ones I handled in stores felt the same so seems to be a feature, not a bug. Surprised this doesn't get mentioned more.

    Ergos are personal so that's something that can be hard to predict. I took the GH3 for 2 hour walkabout last night and handheld it single hand almost the entire time with good comfort 12-35/2.8 on it. Now I'm back to pondering the A7 as I know I'd get an IQ bump for some stuff, just not sure if my lazy run-and-gun style fits it well. As always, ymmv and consider the gas behind the decisions :-D
    I started a thread here a while ago about the short travel of the shutter release on a sample I was trying at a photo fair at the local store. I was similarly displeased with it. But others seemed to think it was a sample variance or a demo overuse issue.

    So, like I said above, I am going to shoot with a rental for a weekend to see how it plays out. I did the same thing for a week over the break with the Fuji XE-2, and I found that actually spending a lot of time with a rental helps a lot to get the true feel of the camera.

    On the EM-5 grip, I use the Really Right Stuff grip for it and prefer that over the Oly one. Again, personal preference.

    Why am I looking at other cameras as I am so happy with the EM-5? My daughter is casting covetous eyes at my EM-5 , and I would like to have a second body...

    Doug

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    I started a thread here a while ago about the short travel of the shutter release on a sample I was trying at a photo fair at the local store. I was similarly displeased with it. But others seemed to think it was a sample variance or a demo overuse issue.
    ...
    Why am I looking at other cameras as I am so happy with the EM-5? My daughter is casting covetous eyes at my EM-5 , and I would like to have a second body...
    I personally have had no problems with the feel of the E-M1 shutter release. I've used mine and three others, they all feel the same, and remind me most of the E-1 shutter release (best of all of them). I can reliably half-press, change settings, then finish the press every time. The first half press is very light and short, just the way I like it.

    However, if you like the E-M5 so much, why not just keep yours and buy another one for your daughter? That would be a nice gift!

    There's no reason not to stick with a camera that works well for you. Technically newer and more feature-filled isn't necessarily always better.
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I personally have had no problems with the feel of the E-M1 shutter release. I've used mine and three others, they all feel the same, and remind me most of the E-1 shutter release (best of all of them). I can reliably half-press, change settings, then finish the press every time. The first half press is very light and short, just the way I like it.

    However, if you like the E-M5 so much, why not just keep yours and buy another one for your daughter? That would be a nice gift!

    There's no reason not to stick with a camera that works well for you. Technically newer and more feature-filled isn't necessarily always better.
    Absolutely on the keep mine and buy one thing, but trying out an EM-1 for real will either validate that direction or open my eyes to other possibilities. Loved the IQ of the Fuji when I rented it, liked a lot of the handling, and the high ISO performance was scary good. No tilt screen, no ibis, and no button for manually switching between LCD and EVF (I don't like the eye sensor modality of shooting).

    On trying out the EM-1, will the disagreement with the shutter release go away? Will the ergonomics be better? Will the new EVF be that much better? Etc, etc, etc... So, I try it out

    Totally agreed with the philosophy of if it aint broke.... But I like to play around .

    And yup, something will be a nice graduation gift for her. Besides, I like to encourage her obsession with photography...

    Doug

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well, besides PD AF and ergonomics I think also IBIS and continuous tracking are better in the E-M1.
    If these features don't matter to get the shot then the E-M5 seems at least equal in IQ to the E-M1.

    Isn't there also some advanced processing, like diffraction correction, that takes place in the E-M1 for native Olympus lenses? I am not aware that this feature is available in the E-M5.
    The E-M5 has the same processing features as the E-M1 in terms of native Olympus lenses. As far as IQ though, I tested both cameras and found that my 75mm/1.8 lens was also slightly sharper on the E-M5, consistent with the findings of DxOmark. This was a big disappointment to me, since I was excited about a possible lack of AA filter on the E-M1, which turned out not to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatko Batistich View Post
    The report on Eoshd.com is the only mention I've seen of this. The author doesn't say what lens he used. He does write that he has only shot video (not stills) with the camera. Are there any other examples of this problem? Has anyone seen it in stills? If so, with what lenses?

    With all of the people shooting the E-M1 for the past few months, I would think that this would have been widely reported if it were indeed a serious flaw. If only one person has seen it and only in video, then it may not be much of a problem.
    Yeah, unfortunately I did not test the E-M1 when shooting towards light sources. I guess like most people who try to control their testing scenario, such cases are typically ignored. You should be able to see the stripes though on the E-M1 sensors, if you go to a store that has them for demo or display. And you are probably right that it won't be much of a problem in typical shooting. But it bugs me that it can happen at all on the E-M1.

    I was really hoping the E-M1 would be an improvement over the E-M5. There are indeed some improvements in the E-M1 viewfinder and perhaps its ergonomics as compared to the E-M5 without a grip, but in the end the images from the E-M5 were always a wee bit better, at least with my lenses.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    The E-M5 has the same processing features as the E-M1 in terms of native Olympus lenses. As far as IQ though, I tested both cameras and found that my 75mm/1.8 lens was also slightly sharper on the E-M5, consistent with the findings of DxOmark. This was a big disappointment to me, since I was excited about a possible lack of AA filter on the E-M1, which turned out not to be true.



    Yeah, unfortunately I did not test the E-M1 when shooting towards light sources. I guess like most people who try to control their testing scenario, such cases are typically ignored. You should be able to see the stripes though on the E-M1 sensors, if you go to a store that has them for demo or display. And you are probably right that it won't be much of a problem in typical shooting. But it bugs me that it can happen at all on the E-M1.

    I was really hoping the E-M1 would be an improvement over the E-M5. There are indeed some improvements in the E-M1 viewfinder and perhaps its ergonomics as compared to the E-M5 without a grip, but in the end the images from the E-M5 were always a wee bit better, at least with my lenses.
    I think that unless you need long exposure without dark frame subtraction, then the two cameras produce very similar results, save for pixels peepers. The main difference will be found in handling. Personnally I prefer the E-M5 handling and its smaller size.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Personnally I prefer the E-M5 handling and its smaller size.
    I am a bit the same, if I didn't already have the E-M5 I'd probably go the EM-1 just to have the technology it offers, but I am yet to stretch usage of my E-M5 past a point where it has not worked for me. The differences to my eyes in IQ are minimal and seem more different than better than one or the other.

    Right now my DP2M and GR get more love, the E-M5 being more a tool. My FL trio is 14/20/45 but I'd really like a 10mm prime - ha, there I knew I'd get that one in again!. I am considering trading the 20mm to 25mm also.

    I think I might sit this one (E-M1) out unless my E-M5 gets broken or other issue.

    I do however visit this forum a lot just to see how you E-M1 guys are getting on.

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    Senior Member Annna T's Avatar
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I am a bit the same, if I didn't already have the E-M5 I'd probably go the EM-1 just to have the technology it offers, but I am yet to stretch usage of my E-M5 past a point where it has not worked for me. The differences to my eyes in IQ are minimal and seem more different than better than one or the other.

    Right now my DP2M and GR get more love, the E-M5 being more a tool. My FL trio is 14/20/45 but I'd really like a 10mm prime - ha, there I knew I'd get that one in again!. I am considering trading the 20mm to 25mm also.

    I think I might sit this one (E-M1) out unless my E-M5 gets broken or other issue.

    I do however visit this forum a lot just to see how you E-M1 guys are getting on.
    Concerning the lenses, i own both the 20mm and 25mm. Since i got the 25mm, the 20mm see far less use, because i love its rendering. But it is a little big and comes with a cumbersome hood which can't be reversed for storage. Olympus has just announced (or will announce in a few days) the launch of a 25mm F1.8. It looks much like the 45mm. If you care for size, you should ould wait to read the first reviews and see how it compare to the Panasonic before getting one.

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    I think this thread highlights they way people want a personalised camera these days, and the minor things that can irritate them.

    Fifty years on from being given my Dad's almost silent old Kodak Retina I've never once judged a camera on the sound of its shutter or action of the shutter release, even after a few years doing theatre photography. Before I've even thought about that I've decided a new camera is right because of the things it does, not the things it doesn't do. Lets face it, we are spoilt for choice, as Godfrey says no modern camera in the ballpark of the EM5 or M1 is going to let you down or seriously disappoint. Why haven't I bought a new M1 and kept my EM5? The EM5 with a pancake lens fits into my coat pocket, if I bought an M1 I'd also need to buy a new coat with bigger pockets. For 99.9% of all photography having a usable camera with you outweighs clicks, whirrs, clunks, and even pixel peeping image quality.

    Steve

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    "the 25mm, the 20mm see far less use, because i love its rendering. But it is a little big and comes with a cumbersome hood which can't be reversed for storage"

    I have put one of those rubber ones on my 25mm and it folds back into almost nothing - but the lens is still a lot less pocketable than the 20mm.

    Tony

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    "a new coat with bigger pockets. For 99.9% of all photography having a usable camera with you outweighs clicks, whirrs, clunks, and even pixel peeping image quality."

    So true. I have spent a couple of satisfying hours today tweaking some lovely images I took on my Samsung S4 phone as the fog lifted from the River Thames.

    I have the M5 these days for 'proper' photography but I've decided that for my Club's spring exhibition I will try to have all five prints from my cellphone.

    Tony

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    ... For 99.9% of all photography having a usable camera with you outweighs clicks, whirrs, clunks, and even pixel peeping image quality.
    Every time I find myself diving into the pixel-peeping world again, I just pull out a Polaroid Spectra and make a couple of photos.


    They're not sharp, they're small, and I just love how they look. How can something so rudimentary be so satisfying?


    I don't know, they just are. And they reset anxiety over details of which magical digital camera does what better time and time again. :-)
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    So as advertised, I spent the past weekend in Yosemite with a rental EM-1, and I thought I'd follow up here.

    On the extremely sensitive or short throw shutter release, I must have had at least 15 accidental triggers of the shutter due to it. The most annoying being while shooting starts (hrmm, 30 seconds wasted). Cold hands made for more likely triggering as there just isn't any forgiveness in it that I can find. The funny thing is there is a menu item to seemingly make it even mores sensitive. Since I use IBIS turned on when the shutter is half pressed, this remains a challenge for me. Also oddly, there is significant travel in the shutter button with good resistance, but it is all after the shutter has triggered. Just strange to me.

    The viewfinder, what can I say other than sweet? Just a pleasure to use.

    The feel of the camera is very good in my hands. VERY.

    The fn1 button up by the thumb rest is a total candidate for accidental tripping for me also. I had it set for bracket and was hitting it constantly. I think I would either just set it off or set it to something like peaking which I wouldn't mind being accidentally triggered.

    I had the AFL/AEL button set to AF lock with the shutter half press set to AE lock. This is my standard setup with my EM-5. My thumb did a lot of searching between the AFL button and the info button (two buttons I use a lot on the EM-5).

    I had the fn2 button set to peaking, but in hindsight, I might move AF-L to that button instead. Not sure.

    I ignored the lever around the AF-L button as I just set ISO and WB via the control panel.

    I didn't notice IBIS being any better, but I wasn't pushing its capabilities, either.

    Quality of images seems about the same to my eye with that of the EM-5.

    Focus peaking and shooting with the 60 macro was a treat. Although I wish peaking would stay on when the shutter was half pressed. This came into play when I was shooting clusters of moving lady bugs. If I could put AE-L on a different button from AF-L, maybe this wouldn't concern me.

    A totally qualitative comment. It took me far less time to be up and running with the Fuji XE-2 rental than it did with the EM-1 even though I am quite familiar with Oly's menu "system" and method of doing things.

    So, I've mentioned lots of niggles and things. Did I have fun with it (you bet ). Would I buy one over an EM-5? Mixed bag, not sure. Is it a heck of a camera? Oh yeah. Did I settle down with it over the weekend? Yep. Did I periodically grumble when something triggered accidentally? Grumble, Grumble . If there was no EM-5, would I buy one? Yep.

    Doug
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Interesting, thanks for posting your experience.

    I normally use the E-M1's Aperture Priority AE and evaluative metering, with S-AF focusing mode. This is right on the money most of the time, with EV comp as direct on the front dial and the histogram display up in the viewfinder. But I often toggle to MF and switch to Manual exposure with more difficult lighting and/or complex subjects that trip up the automation systems. My standard control configuration is:

    - FN1 button does DoF Preview. Curiously, I never hit it by accident.
    - FN2 on my camera is set as an AF/MF toggle.
    - The Movie Record button is set to only initiate movie recording with the mode dial set to movies, otherwise it is the Multi-Function button.
    - The AEL/AFL button is set to do AE-Lock (with Spot metering pattern) except in manual exposure mode, when it is set to initiate S-AF.
    - I use the lever and the dials to change ISO settings with their default config.
    - The upper front button is a two-press for setting focus magnification (first to set the amount, second to initiate it).
    - The lower front button toggles focus peaking. (It works together with focus magnifcation, and they can each be toggled separately.)
    - I have the magnification and peaking focusing aids set to disable on the shutter half press. (This assists my usual "Set Focus then Frame For Shooting" shooting methodology.)

    (I had a config set up for using adapted manual lenses too, but I've since deleted it because I realized that I greatly prefer to use this camera with my FT and mFT lenses that work with all the automation and configuration options.)

    This works beautifully for me. And yes, the E-M1 is certainly a complex machine to understand and configure due to the many possible combinations of settings and behaviors. But ...

    I've been working a lot with the Sony A7 too, I bought that body specifically to adapt my Leica R lens kit to. Frankly, the Olympus is much easier for me to figure out how to set up because the deep menu system is far more logically organized and the controls are better positioned. The A7 manual is confusing, the menus are scattered as are the physical controls. I *did* get it set up very nicely in the end, but it took me a lot longer than I thought it would.

    Fun stuff ... Now both cameras achieve my goals in purchasing them nicely. They're two of the best cameras I've used, the image quality from either is just delightful, and both have that nice quality (now that I have them configured to my taste) of becoming transparent in my hands so that I can concentrate on my subject rather than the camera.

    fun, fun, fun. :-)

    G
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Godfrey,
    Good post. Definitely added to my thoughts about different ways the camera could be configured. I was working "forward" from where I have my EM-5 configured, and I imagine if I did end up with an EM-1, my setup would evolve over time.

    I didn't see a setting that would let me keep focus peaking enabled with the shutter half pressed. That would have helped.

    Thanks,

    Doug

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by greypilgrim View Post
    ...
    I didn't see a setting that would let me keep focus peaking enabled with the shutter half pressed. That would have helped.
    Hmm. Normally, you have focus peaking turned on when setting focus manually. You don't need to have the shutter half pressed when you're doing that with manual focus ... I'm not understanding the benefit you're looking for.

    G

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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Hmm. Normally, you have focus peaking turned on when setting focus manually. You don't need to have the shutter half pressed when you're doing that with manual focus ... I'm not understanding the benefit you're looking for.

    G
    If you have set IBIS to work when the shutter is half pressed it should improve the focusing experience when focusing longer lenses and using the magnifier : from what i have read, peaking works when the magnifier is not set at full magnification; too bad if it is lost when you half press the shutter.

    As a side note : when my E-M5 is in magnified view, a half press can also return you to full view, unless you have configured the camera for this purpose. On the E-M5 you have to set up IBIS to work when the shutter is half pressed and in the cogwheel menu D you have to set the close up mode to 2; this ensure that you can remain in magnifying view with the shutter half pressed and IBIS activated : may be that this setting would allow peaking to remain in the E-M1 too (i can't test it, since i don't have an E-M1, only an E-M5).

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    Do the extra phase AF sensors reduce resolution in the M1?

    Well, I tried to check this question out yesterday. The solid data point is that DXO reports a composite resolution number for the 75/1.8 m.Zuiko lens on an E-M5 of 13 while on the E-M1 that lens scores a mere 12 DXO points. Whatever the points mean, 12 and 13 are unusually high scores, not seen on any other common M4/3 lenses or cameras. So I photographed as a test target a rusty old construction trailer, with lots of texture, from about 15 m away. Here's a 100% crop of the center of that picture, shot with the E-M1. It should show without any resizing:



    From about the same position, I reshot with the same lens and my E-P5, which has the sensor and imaging chain of the E-M5 but the image stabilization of the E-M1. Absolutely no difference visible at 100% magnification. But off axis, the M1 was crisp and the P5 a little soft, which could be a focus or an alignment problem, since I am using the same lens.

    But here's the P5, again using the 75/1.8 (all shots in this post were taken at f/4.0), shooting a forest of rebar at a distance of 100-150 m. First the full frame (full width, with some boring foreground stuff cropped out):



    and then a 100% crop from the middle of the frame:



    As for determining which sensor is better, the 16 MPx P5 or the 17 MPx heterogeneous M1, I'll wait for someone like Roger Cicala at Lensrental who uses Imatest tools and reports numbers that have engineering definitions. But I don't think we will be able to see the differences in images, even if printed big.

    scott

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    Re: Do the extra phase AF sensors reduce resolution in the M1?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    ... As for determining which sensor is better, the 16 MPx P5 or the 17 MPx heterogeneous M1, I'll wait for someone like Roger Cicala at Lensrental who uses Imatest tools and reports numbers that have engineering definitions. But I don't think we will be able to see the differences in images, even if printed big.
    Exactly. I don't really see the point of all the testing and worrying people do about these minute differences in imaging performance. Both the E-M1 and the E-M5 (and E-P5, etc) are terrific performers - the differences are nearly invisible nuances of no consequence.

    Were your test photos done with a tripod or hand-held? Unless you're making them with a sturdy tripod, they are meaningless for determining such fine points of imaging performance on resolution and contrast.

    There are several other criteria by which to choose one camera over another that are much more important. I chose the E-M1 after I handled the E-M5 and didn't like the size/organization of the controls very much. The grip and the small differences in button size and placement, the nuanced improvements to the viewfinder, plus the better support for my existing FT lenses, made the E-M1 the right pick for me. But I still like the E-P5 form factor too ... Ah, too many options. ;-)

    G
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    Re: Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

    Exactly, Godfrey. I wanted to know if in my shooting there was a visible difference. So handheld, in good light, exposures of 1/400 or shorter. If I wanted to publish a scientific paper on this comparison, I would go to tripod, focus with magnifier, release on self-timer, take five shots of everything and focus-bracket. And maybe stay indoors with supersharp standard targets instead of real stuff. It turns out to get that kind of accuracy, the camera has to be perfectly aligned and square to the target, so making a jig in which to do this is part of the lab assignment.

    So I'm satisfied that I can use either camera -- the hulking great E-M1 with my big old 4/3 11-22 zoom or the inconspicuous and equally easy to control E-P5 with VF4 with smaller prime lenses, and not worry about any quality tradeoffs. I shot for a month in Iceland with the E-P5 and the 75/1.8 as my "puffin camera," so I wasn't worried. But after posting the shots below I noticed an artifact in the E-P5 picture of the rebar that I will check into. Do you see it?

    scott

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    Sometimes there IS a difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Exactly. I don't really see the point of all the testing and worrying people do about these minute differences in imaging performance. Both the E-M1 and the E-M5 (and E-P5, etc) are terrific performers - the differences are nearly invisible nuances of no consequence.

    G
    OK, so I concluded that I couldn't tell the quality of the E-M1 sensor apart from that of the E-P5 under reasonable shooting conditions in decent light. But as a bit of a GAS-addict, I also have an M[240]. For which I finally got Leica's R to M adapter and can use some pretty nice APO-Elmarit-R lenses on it. So here's a comparison of the same portion of an image from my current construction site, taken by each camera. This section was about 2400 pixels wide on the M, reduced to 1200 pixels for here, and about 1900 pixels wide on the E-P5. First the M[240]:



    and then the E-P5



    The first picture gets more of the texture of the wall around the building-to-be, and resolves the stairs better. And the difference is pretty obvious. It had better be, since the Leica gear cost about six times as much as the E-P5 and its 75/1.8 lens. The E-P5 picture was shot at 1/1600 sec, the Leica picture at 1/750, each with the lens at about two stops below wide open aperture. The Leica shot used a tripod and self-timer, but there was a howling wind and it's hard to focus with only a VF-2 viewfinder, so I think conditions were equal. The difference, I think comes from 24M pixels instead of 16M, with each Leica M pixel 7 times the area of a M4/3 pixel. One lesson is to be extra careful about exposure with M4/3. The E-P5 picture above was exposed for the darker, lower portions of the stairs, so the part being compared is exposed to the right a bit.

    scott

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    Re: Sometimes there IS a difference

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    OK, so I concluded that I couldn't tell the quality of the E-M1 sensor apart from that of the E-P5 under reasonable shooting conditions in decent light. But as a bit of a GAS-addict, I also have an M[240]. For which I finally got Leica's R to M adapter and can use some pretty nice APO-Elmarit-R lenses on it. So here's a comparison of the same portion of an image from my current construction site, taken by each camera. This section was about 2400 pixels wide on the M, reduced to 1200 pixels for here, and about 1900 pixels wide on the E-P5. First the M[240]:



    and then the E-P5



    The first picture gets more of the texture of the wall around the building-to-be, and resolves the stairs better. And the difference is pretty obvious. It had better be, since the Leica gear cost about six times as much as the E-P5 and its 75/1.8 lens. The E-P5 picture was shot at 1/1600 sec, the Leica picture at 1/750, each with the lens at about two stops below wide open aperture. The Leica shot used a tripod and self-timer, but there was a howling wind and it's hard to focus with only a VF-2 viewfinder, so I think conditions were equal. The difference, I think comes from 24M pixels instead of 16M, with each Leica M pixel 7 times the area of a M4/3 pixel. One lesson is to be extra careful about exposure with M4/3. The E-P5 picture above was exposed for the darker, lower portions of the stairs, so the part being compared is exposed to the right a bit.

    scott
    But then the bright sun-light comes from completely different anlges in the two shots.....

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    Re: Sometimes there IS a difference

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    But then the bright sun-light comes from completely different angles in the two shots.....
    I'm not sure if that helps or hurts the M240 shot. The upper picture was taken at 4 pm two weeks after the lower one, which was at 6 pm, or just before sunset. If I adjust the contrast sliders to make the shadows of the steps equally dark, I still won't get the midtone contrast on the wall in the P5 shot that the M240 reveals. In this case the Olympus 75 is up against a world-class lens and doing pretty well, I think.

    I calculated pixel size wrong. The M240's pixels are 3.5 times the size of a P5 or M1 pixel.

    scott
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    Re: Sometimes there IS a difference

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I calculated pixel size wrong. The M240's pixels are 3.5 times the size of a P5 or M1 pixel.

    scott
    I think that we should ask you to "show your work" --you're still way off, by my reckoning (which is maybe simplistic : sensor size / pixel count ; M240 has bigger but also more (24 vs. 16), and the ratio of sensor areas is what you seem to be giving). ... => 2.5 ("pixel pitch" values give a smaller factor).

    ?!

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    Re: Sometimes there IS a difference

    Quote Originally Posted by drofnad View Post
    I think that we should ask you to "show your work" --you're still way off, by my reckoning (which is maybe simplistic : sensor size / pixel count ; M240 has bigger but also more (24 vs. 16), and the ratio of sensor areas is what you seem to be giving). ... => 2.5 ("pixel pitch" values give a smaller factor).

    ?!
    You're right. The M240's pixels are 6 microns on a side, and the M4/3 pixels at 16Mpx are 3.9 microns. So the ratio of pixel areas is 2.37. (pencil and paper helps to get that right.) What also matters is how many electrons each can collect without overflowing and what is the noise floor. I last saw this information published for the M8's sensor. Are there data sheets for the current generation of M4/3 chips?

    sorry about the guesstimates on pixel size.

    scott

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