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Thread: A superfast normal on the G1

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    A superfast normal on the G1

    I just received my Angenieux 25/0.95 (type M2) with the proper adapter and all. Initial snaps showed the characteristics I was prepared for (slight but noticeable pincushion distortion, exposing at 0.95, and the like) but I wasn't prepared for the superb clarity this lens delivers! The CA/flare is quite low for this fast a lens. Contrast is quite good and the details it can provide are fabulous.

    It does not cover the whole of the 4/3rds frame. I can live that because of its character and class.

    Some shots from the first day out (all at f/0.95 and the whole frame).








    It is below freezing, overcast and generally miserable weather. I could not hold out for longer than an hour on the street with exposed fingers.

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    Ranger 9
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Thanks for the interesting look. I'd expect C-mount cine lenses to be high-end designs since they were intended for professional users and the film image always had to be hugely enlarged.

    Did you have any problems with the back focus distance of the lens? I know the mechanical dimensions of the C mount were supposed to be standardized, but had heard that different manufacturers might use different back focus spacing. I know that with C-mount lenses intended for use on older TV cameras, the user was expected to match the individual lens to an individual camera, and the lenses incorporated an adjustment for this; a TV technician would have no trouble making the required adjustments using his test instruments to measure the image.

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Mouthwatering ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I just received my Angenieux 25/0.95 (type M2) with the proper adapter and all.
    ... and green with envy.

    Can we see it on and off the camera, please?

    Questions, questions:

    Where from and how much?

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    I'm wondering if the faster f stop makes a difference other then DOF? With my Canon 10d when I have a f1.2 lens on there is no shutter speed difference between f1.2 and f1.4, f1.4 seems to be the limit. I think it's the size of the mirror box throat that is the limiting factor.

    tm

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    luscious, Vivek!

    i keep on hoping to find one of the faster M-Mount Angenieuxs for my lowly Epson here in Paris. the draw is something else, very sybaritic (but i guess that should be expected from a Cine lens).

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Thanks for the interesting look. I'd expect C-mount cine lenses to be high-end designs since they were intended for professional users and the film image always had to be hugely enlarged.

    Did you have any problems with the back focus distance of the lens? I know the mechanical dimensions of the C mount were supposed to be standardized, but had heard that different manufacturers might use different back focus spacing. I know that with C-mount lenses intended for use on older TV cameras, the user was expected to match the individual lens to an individual camera, and the lenses incorporated an adjustment for this; a TV technician would have no trouble making the required adjustments using his test instruments to measure the image.
    Ranger, Yes, generally the cine lenses are good. This one is not one of the general ones but a great one.

    It was for super-16 and nowadays sought after by Red2k users. It is not a c-mount lens. The M4/3rds to Arri adapter was made by the previous owner (I told ya that I only wish to make pics and not adapters!). It was collimated alright. Shoots past infinity a tad.

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    Re: Mouthwatering ...

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    ... and green with envy.

    Can we see it on and off the camera, please?

    Questions, questions:

    Where from and how much?

    Will post a shot later. It is longer than the kitzoom when the zoom is set to 45mm but is compact (and heavy).

    I traded a more expensive lens in for this one!

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by tmessenger View Post
    I'm wondering if the faster f stop makes a difference other then DOF? With my Canon 10d when I have a f1.2 lens on there is no shutter speed difference between f1.2 and f1.4, f1.4 seems to be the limit. I think it's the size of the mirror box throat that is the limiting factor.

    tm
    The default f number of G1, interestingly, is f/1! So, yes the camera is already set to meter fast lenses.

    However, I find the f/0.95 lenses (this one and the Canon /0.95) do overexpose a tad. So, I set the meter to -0.3eV.

    And, yes, when I stop down to f/1.4 or so there is change in the meter measurement.

    Cam, Yes, I am quite pleased. Fabulous, fabulous rendition.

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    Re: Mouthwatering ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Will post a shot later. It is longer than the kitzoom when the zoom is set to 45mm but is compact (and heavy).

    I traded a more expensive lens in for this one!
    Great shots Vivek with a very special lens. Look forward to seeing this beauty on the camera.

    Regards,
    Carl

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by tmessenger View Post
    I'm wondering if the faster f stop makes a difference other then DOF? With my Canon 10d when I have a f1.2 lens on there is no shutter speed difference between f1.2 and f1.4, f1.4 seems to be the limit. I think it's the size of the mirror box throat that is the limiting factor.
    A constricted mirror-box throat could induce vignetting, but shouldn't be able to alter the effective f/number since it's behind the rear principal plane of the lens. (That's why the diaphragm has to be located inside the lens elements instead of just hanging out the back, which certainly would be much more convenient to engineer!)

    Possibly the vignetting of your f/1.2 lens lowers the overall exposure enough that you don't see any difference on the exposure, but I think it's more likely that it's just rounding in the shutter-speed display. There's only a 1/3-stop difference between f/1.2 and f/1.4, and most cameras won't display shutter speeds to anything closer than 1/3-stop increments (or possibly 1/2-stop increments depending on how you have your custom functions set.)

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Very nice.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Here are some pics of the lens. My apologies for the couple of the shakies. Too late to go back now and do it all over again.







    the mount side



    As you can see from the pics, I have pimped up my G1 and the M4/3 to Arri adapter (aluminum tube covered with a bicycle tube). The 25mm lens weighs less than the 50/0.95 (~445gms). So it is about ~350-400gms. Oh, can't use any hood on the lens! Besides the odd filter size it would require (50.something??mm), anything more than a filter would vignette.

    Carl and Andrew- Thanks.

  13. #13
    psurfer
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Looking Good, Vivek! Nice- I'm sure you're happy w/such a slight loss of coverage at the corners, considering it will most often be looking into darkened corners anyway...

    Have you tried the earliest version of the Ang 1"/0.95? I'm curious if it would have much less coverage, compared to your excellent M2 version.

    I have one of those old ones in c-mount: chrome barrel, ~38mm fltr threads. I don't know that the rear element is much/any smaller than yours, at least judging from your pics. That sure would be fun to use it, although it shouldn't be nearly as good wide open as that one!

    Didn't Rayqual early on mention a planned c-mt to m4/3 adptr, too?

    ps. f/1 default setting? That sure gets one to thinking about what could eventually come down the Panasonic lens pike. If only...

    pps. I also have to say that the Lumix 20/1.7 should help solve So many G1 shortcomings for me at the moment. It's intro can't come soon enough. (But man, another 1.5+ stops extra?!!)
    Last edited by psurfer; 18th January 2009 at 23:18.

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    guidomo
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Great stuff Vivek.

    Before and after cropping the corners, what would be the effective Focal Length of this lens on the G1?

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by psurfer View Post

    Have you tried the earliest version of the Ang 1"/0.95? I'm curious if it would have much less coverage, compared to your excellent M2 version.
    Peter, The Early version (or Type M1) is shorter in length than this type M2 version. I did consiedr but I got such an overwhelming negative feedback from some Bolex users (aka classic heads) and that lens being "fuzzy". The coverage is the same and the distortion (barrel btw, I said the opposite mistakenly) is pretty much the same but the contrast and clarity are much better in the second version it seems (I have not made direct comparisons. my impression of type M1 is from reliable hearsay). Colors are accurate. Reds don't show as unpleasant shades (like the kit zoom).

    I do have a SOM-Berthiot 25/0.95 that needs a total rebuild (new iris plus a focus mechanism). It covers the whole frame without dark corners. Very sharp as well.

    Yes, the 20/1.7 would be very nice.

    BTW, did you notice the DOF at 0.95 as projected by this lens?


    ISO100, f/0.95, 1/80s

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by guidomo View Post
    Great stuff Vivek.

    Before and after cropping the corners, what would be the effective Focal Length of this lens on the G1?
    Guidomo, Thanks. No perceivable difference (to me at least).

  17. #17
    guidomo
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Vivek, apparently if one wanted to crop the image to get rid of the dark corners one would loose around 20% of the image in either direction, which effectively makes the lens somewhat "longer".

    More importantly, is my understanding correct that the cine lens image circle is approximately that of the u4/3 sensor, i.e. a 25mm lens gives roughly the Field of View of a 25mm lens on Full Frame, as opposed to the effective 2x Focal Length extension of standard Full Frame lenses when mounted on the G1?

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    The apparent FOV doesn't depend on the image circle

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Vivek, love that last portrait... the dark corners work great for me - all part of the lens character imho. Love the colour!

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by guidomo View Post
    Vivek, apparently if one wanted to crop the image to get rid of the dark corners one would loose around 20% of the image in either direction, which effectively makes the lens somewhat "longer".

    More importantly, is my understanding correct that the cine lens image circle is approximately that of the u4/3 sensor, i.e. a 25mm lens gives roughly the Field of View of a 25mm lens on Full Frame, as opposed to the effective 2x Focal Length extension of standard Full Frame lenses when mounted on the G1?
    Guidomo, The first part, I am unsure how much I would lose (I have not calculated yet) but it is certainly not 20% for this lens, much less.

    The second part is complicated.

    Cine lenses and their coverage depend on the format they were intended for 8mm, super 8, 16, super 16, 35, super 35, and even larger.

    On the focal length and FOV, what Monza said. Don't let the crop factor confuse you. It will not change the focal length of a lens.

    Brian, Thanks. The lens certainly has character alright.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Cine lenses and their coverage depend on the format they were intended for 8mm, super 8, 16, super 16, 35, super 35, and even larger.
    A rough indication could be given by the film/sensor size in mm (data from Wikipedia):

    4/3 : 13x17.3
    M8 : 18x27
    16 : 7.49x10.26
    Super 16 : 7.41x12.52
    35 : 18x24

    The only lenses covering the whole μFT sensor according to these values would be cine lenses intended for 35mm. Other lenses, such as some Super 16, may have a larger coverage than theoretically needed.

    The 9.8mm Kinoptik Tegea, a 35mm cine lens, is for instance quoted to have a 25mm Ø coverage. This is not enough to cover the full M8 sensor but should cover the 4/3 sensor. I can confirm this for the M8 and am looking forward to receiving the G1 (should arrive later today) to test it on that body.
    Peter Werner
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  22. #22
    guidomo
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Monza and Vivek,

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The apparent FOV doesn't depend on the image circle
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    On the focal length and FOV, what Monza said. Don't let the crop factor confuse you. It will not change the focal length of a lens.
    I admit , I am not getting it. I am still unsure as to the FOV of a cine lens of a given nominal (as printed on the lens) FL on the G1. Let's say you position your G1 with a distance of 1.00m from a wall (sensor-to-wall distance) and you shoot a tape measure fixed to that wall. With your 25mm lens, what horizontal length do you capture?

    I presume if you guys are clear on the FOV you do not need to do the experiment but can actually calculate it.

    Thanks for enlightening feedback.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Most still photographers are not concerned with precise FoV calcs, since what they see in the finder is pretty much what they'll get; we know that our normal lens delivers this look, and our short telephoto delivers that look... OTOH, video folks seem to rely more heavily on precise calcs -- and I am NOT a video guy --- however I'll contribute this:

    The formula for ANGLE of view (W) is as follows, where y is the image vertical, horizontal or diagonal dimension (your choice depending on which angle you want to know) and f is the lens focal length:

    W = (2 x Tan^-1 x y)/2f

    FIELD of view is determined using a simpler law of similar triangles, though you can derive it using the some more trig on the above formula. Anyway, similar triangles approach is:

    Object dimension/object distance = image dimension/focal length.

    Note that these are only as precise as the focal length estimation, since lenses are only their stated length at infinity, and get longer as you focus closer... So if you want more precision in your calc, the basic lens formula for focal length is:

    1/object distance + 1/image distance = 1/focal length.

    Hope that helps
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    That brings back memories of my waves & optics class at the University of Texas way back in 1982. My professor is still teaching...

    In any case, a given lens's focal length remains the same, whether the lens is attached to a 35mm camera, a 16mm movie camera, a G1, or a 6x7. That lens may or may not have a large enough image circle to cover these frames.

    Using 35mm full-frame as the reference and the generally accepted crop factors, a 25mm lens when used on:

    - 35mm full frame is 1x25mm = 25mm
    - M8 is 1.33x25mm = 33mm
    - Nikon DX is 1.5x25mm = 37mm
    - 4/3 sensor = 2x25mm = 50mm

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Jack nailed it with a great explanation covering all the angles.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    does stopping down help the vignetting?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    does stopping down help the vignetting?
    Typically yes, especially with a conventional symmetrical, double-gauss or plasmat lens design. However, most retro-focus or tele designs are limited by free aperture and stopping down won't help much if at all.
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Most likely this is a double gauss variant.

    Here is the lens characteristic (blank wall is the target at ~0.8m) focus was at the center:


  29. #29
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Hey Vivek, yeah, DOF control -in Spades- at 0.95
    You could just about tell where that guy missed shaving...

    re the b/w coverage illus shot sequence, I don't know if you shot that? but judging by your posted real-world® shots, it's coverage on m4/3 sure looks better/larger (unless in the turnarounds of resizing/posting/etc some of your full image area was lost).

    Here's what I vaguely recall being told once about the Angenieux 0.95 versions: The first chrome barrel one was developed for c-mt, for all the 16mm cameras that were starting to sell in numbers in the US at the time (B&H, Kodak). Small size mattered for those fairly small 3-lens turrets. This thing is small but Solid, btw. Feels like a solid slug of nickel that could have been loaded into a howitzer in a pinch...

    Later they improved adapted/remade it in Arri mt, w/part chrome and part black barrel, for the beefier Arri's (16S, 16M, probably the 16BL was intro'd by then, which was used more often on tripod), so increasing size (also) had the advantage of giving a camera operator or focus puller a larger ring to grab and read. -The orig version is set up more as a trad rf lens/ordnance.

    Then, the all-black 3rd and Penultimate version (... just trying to keep up w/that evocative "Sybaritic" rendering description earlier ...) which you now sleep w/under the pillow, no doubt. Improved further coatings, and whatever other Parisian flavor they managed to charm it with.
    I'm not sure about it being intended for S16 though, as that wasn't really catching on until some years later, just beginning at the end of the 70's.

    Most all of the big-gun cine lensmakers' primes were consistently good to exc by the 60's-70's, esp for 35mm -remember what the end use of the glass was typically for (not 8x10 prints). Ang, Cooke, Schneider, Zeiss, oh my.

    Anyway, yes, your nice shots got me revved up for what I've had sitting in a shoebox, but I did expect my Oldie O.95 would be something of a dog wide-open for stills; but still hoping for some "character" nevertheless. --Not to mention being able to "see something" half-way "clearly" in low light on this G1! -f/3.5 and up just don't cut it in that finder for me in what I call available light...
    (So when is that Raynox c-adptr selling already? And when are the really cheapo versions going to make this a less risky experiment? C-mt should be about the easiest adptr to make.)

    And for those thinking it's a cheap way in, I doubt that most 16 lenses -let alone in c-mt, will cover as generously as Vivek's magic 0.95, although some were known to cover more than 16.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Peter, Thanks a bunch! I greatly appreciate the information you have provided.

    I don't think it is a matter of size. The Som-Berthiot lens I mentioned could be housed in a very small sized lens casing. It does cover the whole of the 4/3rds sensor (albeit with similar -ve distortion). I am sure you will put your 0.95 lens to good use.

    Again, your detailed information is much appreciated!

  31. #31
    psurfer
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    You're right, strike my comments about the bigger size- I was thinking more in terms of concerns for 35 cine lenses. As a matter of fact, looking at your lens' focus barrel I see it has about the same throw distance as the old one, ~quarter turn from inf to 5ft. (35 lenses benefit from long barrel turns for ease in controlling focus moves by assistants.)

    If mine turns out to have half the crisp clarity of yours wide open, I sure could put it to good use.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Let me add these to address the bokeh question:

    At ~1.5m (all wide open) and ISO200, 1/100s.



    At ~0.5 (closest focus) and ISO100, 1/20s.



    and at somewhere in between, ISO100, 1/3s (hand-held!).

    Last edited by Vivek; 22nd January 2009 at 17:03.

  33. #33
    psurfer
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    That looks like it strikes a nice balance to me. Mine will probably bloom and soften wide open in comparison. Probably wait for a decently priced C-mt adptr to find out; I'll predict that to be w/in 3-4 weeks...

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    There are very very few lenses that will not make a sensor bloom when pointed to bright lights.

    Yes, affordable adapters should be coming soon.

  35. #35
    dng88
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There are very very few lenses that will not make a sensor bloom when pointed to bright lights.

    Yes, affordable adapters should be coming soon.
    From camera world not video/16mm world, I am confused.

    Can I say I just get a c-mount adapter and a Angenieux 0.95/25 and it would be good to try? Or the c-mount lens actually has many different spec. and in fact Angenieux 0.95/25 is not c-mount even (M1/M2/... types), hence just get a c-mount adapter is not that useful?

    Very confused but I quite the picture you took. Also, the 0.95 is very important. It would be much less those "video" feel in handling I guess, wouldn't it?

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    The type M1 Angenieux 25/0.95 was only in c-mount, I think. That would fit with a c-mount adapter.

    I have only seen one type M2 sample (mine). That is in Arriflex mount.

    If you find any of the type M2 in c-mount, it is quite likely that it is already fitted with a Arri to c-mount adapter. This adapter business or changing of the camera mount is quite common in the movie gear world, I understand.

  37. #37
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    I was given the "ok" to link this photo and information about a soon-to-be-available adapter from MS Optical, which will be available from http://www.japanexposures.com



    Type M1 Angenieux 25/0.95

    http://www.hayatacamera.co.jp/article/photo200901.html

  38. #38
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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Yehh...you can find a LTM to C- mount adapter @ KEH for four doLLarz USD...!


    muthas of inVenshun...rULe

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Y.B.Hudson III View Post
    Yehh...you can find a LTM to C- mount adapter @ KEH for four doLLarz USD...!


    muthas of inVenshun...rULe
    Got it backwards... it won't worK...duh...


    Y.B.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Speaking of cheap experiments, I got a C mount adapter from Taiwan, and the Carl Zeiss Jena Tevidon 25mm 1.4 from eBay and its working out quite well for about $100 total for both. I'd love to be able to get a 0.95 one day though!

    all at f1.4







    Last edited by phobus; 29th January 2009 at 23:31.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Pointed at the computer screen - not sure if this is the right way to do it. I can't tell the aperture exactly because I mounted the aperture ring upside down to get the lens to mount closer to the sensor for infinity focus.

    f1.4



    f-almost closed


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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Tevidon 25mm 1.4 etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by phobus View Post
    Speaking of cheap experiments, I got a C mount adapter from Taiwan, and the Carl Zeiss Jena Tevidon 25mm 1.4 from eBay and its working out quite well for about $100 total for both.
    Thanks for the tip off phobus. I think I got there just in time this morning, as soon afterwards they re-placed the advert and now they're selling them off in lots of 5. The thing is, logically, there are plenty of mounts for attaching other lenses to cine cameras but not the other way round (who'da thunk it?), so can you tell us all where you got your Taiwanese C-mount adapter?
    Thanks in advance.

    m.

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    Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Tevidon 25mm 1.4 etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    Thanks for the tip off phobus. I think I got there just in time this morning, as soon afterwards they re-placed the advert and now they're selling them off in lots of 5. The thing is, logically, there are plenty of mounts for attaching other lenses to cine cameras but not the other way round (who'da thunk it?), so can you tell us all where you got your Taiwanese C-mount adapter?
    Thanks in advance.

    m.
    Hi, I got it from this thread - http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=...1xf6MbfYon4iEA

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Tevidon 25mm 1.4 etc.

    Cheers. Waded through the whole lot and got the gist of it (I think). Anyway I sent HawkPeng an email and we'll go on from there. From what I gathered, he's thinking about doing an FD to m4/3 variation too and somone's asked him to look into an Arriflex adaptor. If he keeps his prices down he'll be a welcome alternative to some of the others ...

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by phobus View Post
    I can't tell the aperture exactly because I mounted the aperture ring upside down to get the lens to mount closer to the sensor for infinity focus.

    Make a mark in the lens mount where the aperture should show when the lens is mounted on the adapter (and the camera), then dismount the lens.

    Unscrew the 3 screws on the lens mount, rotate and position the mount close to the marked position and screw the screws back on. You will now have the lens that would focus to infinity while you can also see the focus/aperture scales on the lens.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Make a mark in the lens mount where the aperture should show when the lens is mounted on the adapter (and the camera), then dismount the lens.

    Unscrew the 3 screws on the lens mount, rotate and position the mount close to the marked position and screw the screws back on. You will now have the lens that would focus to infinity while you can also see the focus/aperture scales on the lens.
    Great tip! I'll try that tonight!

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    Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Tevidon 25mm 1.4 etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by phobus View Post
    Rabenwolf, from whom I ordered a C->G1 adapter warned me that the Chinese adapter is limited in the diameter of the C-mount lenses it can accomodate while his is not. The picture in this link seems to confirm his saying
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    This one doesn't have that limitation either.



    About ¥10,000, coming soon.

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by phobus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    This one doesn't have that limitation either.



    About ¥10.000, coming soon.
    Rabe says some Chinese adapters he has seen will for instance not allow the Kern Macro Switars to be mounted which have a back diameter of approx. 38mm. The recessed C screw mount on the picture seems surrounded by a ring that might do just that. I can tell more once I receive the adapter
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Re: A superfast normal on the G1

    The one I have is limited in that way.. I unscrewed the back of the tevidon lens and shaved off a bit of the edges to make it fit (with a dremel, it was easy because everything is made of brass). If I had an expensive lens, I'd wait for the adapter monza posted, but for $25 its pretty much a no lose situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    Rabe says some Chinese adapters he has seen will for instance not allow the Kern Macro Switars to be mounted which have a back diameter of approx. 38mm. The recessed C screw mount on the picture seems surrounded by a ring that might do just that. I can tell more once I receive the adapter

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