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Thread: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

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    Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Check Akira Sakamoto's post (towards the end) here:

    http://photo.net/olympus-camera-forum/00S5eh

    Sobering thoughts!

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Are you talking about hs comments about corrections done to the files? I think it was shown with Panasonics other cameras that make corrections that you really aren't losing the angle of view and that it is actually wider than reported so corrected you are sill have the view you would have at the advertised focal length. It would be interesting to test this vs another camera.

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    I would like to know how I can not lose pixels when I correct an image for distortions, CA and the like.

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    I never said you weren't losing pixels. I was talking about angle of view.

    Here are two threads addressing it. One goes through exactly the pixel difference between corrected and uncorrected files.

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...orrection&qf=m


    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...orrection&qf=m

    I will sign off this thread now. You sound angry at Panasonic for something but not sure what the problem is:
    Design of the G1
    Not up to snuff kit lens
    Says panasonic on it
    They correct the files if you use their lenses (think Phase and Capture 1)

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Oh, Terry! Thanks for your links (will go through them later)!

    I am excited about the m4/3rds (the mount and the register).

    Not happy (angry may not be the word. If I am angry, I shut up. This is feedback. You should realize that I am not yelling at you or any others. ) about the LUMIX sign plastered on the camera which is hard to get rid off while the other useful setting icons (that are useful to find the camera's functions) made with white paint are dull and would rub off.

    What were they thinking?

    The rest you list, well, I already forgot. I just use what I have and as I need it. No judgment on the fellow G1 users.

    One of my UV cams:



    one of my RF cams (as an UV cam):



    Nikon, Epson, Lumix, they all fare the same in my hands.

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Vivek,
    Apart from paint and logos (and yes, I would like to get rid of a few too, (like the Finepix logo on my S3), the orange "twopod" you use to support your D40 is just priceless

    Another one of your inventions?

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    ...and do you really use an IKEA shopping bag to carry around your not-RD1? :-)

    peace

    K

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Vivek,
    Apart from paint and logos (and yes, I would like to get rid of a few too, (like the Finepix logo on my S3), the orange "twopod" you use to support your D40 is just priceless

    Another one of your inventions?
    Jorgen, Those are edible as well! They double as a snack!

    Kevin, No, that (blue plastic) was a part of a huge (4x4meters) sheet to cover some construction debris. I forget if I even carried my Epson anywhere.

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Check Akira Sakamoto's post (towards the end) here:

    http://photo.net/olympus-camera-forum/00S5eh

    Sobering thoughts!
    Interesting Vivek
    I don't think it's right though . . . or not entirely.

    My biggest worry with the G1 (and my Dlux4 as well) is this issue of automatic lens correction - the information for which is in the RAW files.

    You can convert RAW files for these cameras to DNG using ADobe DNG converter . . . but only to 'linear' files, which are already processed and cannot be read in other converters (Aperture for instance) which do accept DNG conversions.

    However - if the RAW file does not contain any lens correction information, then you can convert to normal DNG files and process in other software.

    To get to my point:

    G1 files can be converted to ordinary DNG files for everything except the kit lenses - that even includes the Olympus 9-18 lens, which does autofocus on the G1. Of course, it also includes any other 4:3 lenses from Olympus (don't have any panasonic ones), and anything else you stick on (m mount etc).

    Whether this will change in the future remains to be seen, but at present, it seems that if you are using an adaptor - then it isn't putting lens information in the RAW file (whether or not it's using it in the jpg).

    To be honest, this 'lens correction' is my biggest worry with these cameras, I think it means that you'll only really be able to process them properly with their own converters, and that seems to be quite a step backwards.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Interesting Vivek
    I don't think it's right though . . . or not entirely.

    My biggest worry with the G1 (and my Dlux4 as well) is this issue of automatic lens correction - the information for which is in the RAW files.

    You can convert RAW files for these cameras to DNG using ADobe DNG converter . . . but only to 'linear' files, which are already processed and cannot be read in other converters (Aperture for instance) which do accept DNG conversions.

    However - if the RAW file does not contain any lens correction information, then you can convert to normal DNG files and process in other software.

    To get to my point:

    G1 files can be converted to ordinary DNG files for everything except the kit lenses - that even includes the Olympus 9-18 lens, which does autofocus on the G1. Of course, it also includes any other 4:3 lenses from Olympus (don't have any panasonic ones), and anything else you stick on (m mount etc).

    Whether this will change in the future remains to be seen, but at present, it seems that if you are using an adaptor - then it isn't putting lens information in the RAW file (whether or not it's using it in the jpg).

    To be honest, this 'lens correction' is my biggest worry with these cameras, I think it means that you'll only really be able to process them properly with their own converters, and that seems to be quite a step backwards.
    Jono, I thought the linear DNG was temporary and a permanent solution with regular sized DNGs was under development. I will try and dig up where I read this but I think some of the information is in the two links I posted for Vivek above. I know for Adobe products it was solved so you don't get the massive files when using Lightroom but it also corrects the lenses and CA.

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    However - if the RAW file does not contain any lens correction information, then you can convert to normal DNG files and process in other software.
    Wow, Jono - that's a great find! I will give this a go, as I rarely use the 14-45, so this could be great for me.

    p.s. Qimage Studio and PhotoAcute both will read the linear DNG files.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    There are some interesting thoughts and posts in the comments about this on Amin's blog:

    http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/...ainst-dng.html

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Hi Monza
    It is interesting, but I think he has missed something with reference to Adobe converstion of LX3 and D-lux4 and also G1 files (with the kit lenses)

    In each case Adobe converter creates linear DNG files - these, apart from being grotesquely huge - already have the demosaicing done - they are effectively already converted.

    On this basis I think that his worry about the use of DNG files is misplaced.
    BUT - and this is a big BUT. It seems to me that the inclusion of lens correction data in RAW files is a really bad idea, apart from allowing dodgy lenses to be 'fixed' in software, it clearly has a bad effect on the resulting file:

    Amin's conversion post number 17

    I think there are three problems:
    1. it locks you into the proprietary converter - unless others agree to use this information, and that sounds decidedly unlikely
    2. Unless you can turn it off, it means you are forced to sacrifice lens correction for resolution in files which may simply not need it.
    3. There are almost certainly better software solutions to lens correction.

    So, Brian, if you have Panasonic's ear, I urge you to tell them to give us an option to TURN OFF lens correction in the RAW files.

    Brian
    Pleased to be of service here - I've actually stopped using the G1 with the kit lenses, because I won't shoot jpg, and I won't use Silky pix or Lightroom. It may seem like an unnecessary reaction, but my whole workflow is built around Aperture, and it's not worth changing it for one camera. (I've made a temporary exception for the D-lux4 as I do have (and can use) Capture one, but it'll only be a temporary exception!

    Terry
    it may be a temporary solution, and if they do a DNG conversion without the lens correction information, that'll be fine; but as it stands that doesn't really seem to fit with the way they are heading right now.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Jono,

    I'm confused by the whole RAW/dng/Aperture business, and probably misunderstand your comments. I hope you can help me.

    I have a GX200. It shoots DNG natively. Aperture opens them just fine.

    I used to have a Canon 20D. It shoots Raw. Aperture opens these raw files. Or, I can convert the Raw to DNG using Adobe Camera Raw, and then import the DNG to Aperture which reads those DNGs. (The results of these operations are identical so far as I can tell).

    I traded the Canon 20D for a G1 with (so far) the kit lens. Aperture will not (yet) read the Raw files that the camera writes.

    But I _can_ open the G1 Raw files using Adobe Camera RAW (I use the plugin for CS4). That works. I can then save the RAW as a DNG. But when I try to open _that_ DNG in Aperture, it doesn't work. I get an "unsupported file format" error. As I understood it, Aperture won't read DNGs from cameras it doesn't know about, and it doesn't know about the G1 (yet).

    Did you mean to say that Aperture _can_ read DNGs made (via Adobe Camera Raw) from G1 files so long as they don't use the kit lens? That old lenses using adapters will make RAW files that can be converted to DNGs that Aperture will be able to read?

    If so it would be very nice, and yet another reason to be eager for my Rayqual adapter to come.

    Any illumination on this arcane matter will be greatly appreciated.

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Jono, I've forwarded your request - but I'm wondering whether it might be better if Adobe could strip the lens correction data when converting to DNG?

    ...unless the whole RAW image data is simply transformed by the correction data?

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    HI Ed
    I wish I could explain myself better - I'll try!
    Quote Originally Posted by edslaughter View Post
    Jono,

    I'm confused by the whole RAW/dng/Aperture business, and probably misunderstand your comments. I hope you can help me.

    I have a GX200. It shoots DNG natively. Aperture opens them just fine.

    I used to have a Canon 20D. It shoots Raw. Aperture opens these raw files. Or, I can convert the Raw to DNG using Adobe Camera Raw, and then import the DNG to Aperture which reads those DNGs. (The results of these operations are identical so far as I can tell).

    I traded the Canon 20D for a G1 with (so far) the kit lens. Aperture will not (yet) read the Raw files that the camera writes.

    But I _can_ open the G1 Raw files using Adobe Camera RAW (I use the plugin for CS4). That works. I can then save the RAW as a DNG. But when I try to open _that_ DNG in Aperture, it doesn't work. I get an "unsupported file format" error. As I understood it, Aperture won't read DNGs from cameras it doesn't know about, and it doesn't know about the G1 (yet).
    No - Aperture will read ALL standard DNG files, and if it understands the camera, then it will apply what it understands . .. For instance, it does understand the M8 and it does understand your Canon 20D - and will apply camera specific information, and it doesn't understand your GX 200, but will do a standard (and very good) DNG conversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by edslaughter View Post
    Did you mean to say that Aperture _can_ read DNGs made (via Adobe Camera Raw) from G1 files so long as they don't use the kit lens?

    That old lenses using adapters will make RAW files that can be converted to DNGs that Aperture will be able to read?
    Yes, that's exactly right - but it's important to understand why, it's really nothing to do with Aperture, but everything to do with Adobe . . . and Panasonic.

    When you convert a file to DNG using DNG converter, there are two basic options:

    1. Preserve Raw Image.
    If you do this then Aperture will do the de-mosaicing and convert the file - this is the case both with cameras it does recognise, and those it doesn't.

    2. Convert to Linear Image
    In this case, Adobe Converter does the de-mosaicing, and Aperture will not read the file.

    As far as G1 (and LX3 and d-lux4 files), IF the raw image contains lens correction information, then Adobe DNG converter will force 'convert to linear image' - do the demosaicing, and Aperture will not read it.
    IF the raw image does NOT contain lens correction information, then Adobe DNG converter will convert using 'preserve raw image', and you can read it in Aperture.
    For the LX3 and D-lux4, ALL files have lens correction information, so you cannot use the DNG files in Aperture
    For the G1, only files from the Panasonic Kit lenses have lens correction information - these cannot be converted using 'preserve raw image' and can't be read in Aperture. All other files created from M mount lenses, or other 4:3 lenses, right down to the 9-18 (which autofocuses) CAN be converted using 'preserve raw image' and can therefore be read in Aperture.

    . . . . .I thought I could write this in one line . . . I hope it's clearer!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Jono, if i understand you correctly, the alternative way would be for the camera to do the processing before it wrote its RAW file. I am guessing that this is what the M8 must do since with coded wide lenses it processes for cyan shift and vignetting in the corners. In a way, I think I prefer the idea that it writes the correction information into the RAW file. The issue is with the Adobe converter. It can and should be made so you have the option to use the information in conversion to DNG or not as you chose. I think I read that Adobe will make this optional in the next version of the RAW converter plug-in.
    V/r John

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Jono,

    Very clear now. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain so fully.

    Regards,

    Ed

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Jono, if i understand you correctly, the alternative way would be for the camera to do the processing before it wrote its RAW file. I am guessing that this is what the M8 must do since with coded wide lenses it processes for cyan shift and vignetting in the corners. In a way, I think I prefer the idea that it writes the correction information into the RAW file. The issue is with the Adobe converter. It can and should be made so you have the option to use the information in conversion to DNG or not as you chose. I think I read that Adobe will make this optional in the next version of the RAW converter plug-in.
    Hi John
    I don't think it's at all like the M8 situation - there is no possible reason not to correct cyan shifts and vignetting, but there are lots of reasons not to force lens correction - with all that entails with reference to soft corners etc.

    But my real point is that adding this sort of complexity to the RAW files simply means that they are no longer properly supported - so one ends up having to use the RAW converter that comes with the camera. . . . And will that still be available in ten years? five years? who knows. Personally I'm very worried about too much special information in RAW files - I'd much rather be able to convert to DNG files which are readable by anything which supports DNG (which is the case with the M8 - and with my Sony A900 I convert everything to DNG).

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  20. #20
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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    I see the potential for concern in general, but I also think it's a safe assumption (if m4/3 format becomes established at all) that Adobe and Apple will update their wares to work w/it.

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    Re: Panasonic G1- how the software dictates the image

    As to Aperture, it's DNG support is broken and has been since inception. It will only support DNG's that are from natively supported cameras (whether the DNG is the native RAW format or the original RAW format is converted to DNG). RAW files converted to DNG from any unsupported camera, or native DNG's from an unsupported camera will not work. Capture One's DNG support is even worse (It won't support native DNG's from the Pentax K20D, but will support PEF's from the same camera).

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