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Thread: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

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    Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Hi There
    the last test (I promise). This was really for my own benefit, but somebody might like to look.

    One thing that became immediately obvious, was that, on a tripod with the leica 75 'cron aspheric, the G1 was soooooooo much easier to focus and compose - different world really.

    The leica 75 summicron Aspheric is one of the very sharpest lenses you can get, it's a modern design, and some might think it rather brutal, but I love it, and it was good for my purposes here.

    I took a few shots to get the focus right (on the stem of the apple) and the field of view as close as I could (obviously I had to move forward a bit with the M8 to get the same FOV). I've then done crops from the middle and the edge. All photos were at f4, with base ISO (100 on the G1, 160 on the M8).

    Worth noting that the blue of the wool on the G1 is more accurate than on the M8 (even with an IR filter, it's not perfect!)

    Taken on a tripod, with delayed release.

    In each case it is the Leica shot first.

    I'm sure you can make your own minds up!






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    edge (ish)




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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Thanks for these, Jono.
    The wool shot really tells the story. The M8 makes the wool feel like you can touch it. The G1 looks like an oil painting of wool.
    -Brad

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    The M8 image is really much better imho - apart from the obvious IR problem affecting the wool colour.

    The wool looks out of focus with the G1... what do you think caused that?

    Thanks Jono

    Brian

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    .... but the apple looks sharper on the G1 .

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Hi Brad

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    Thanks for these, Jono.
    The wool shot really tells the story. The M8 makes the wool feel like you can touch it. The G1 looks like an oil painting of wool.
    -Brad
    it looks like it's out of focus doesn't it . . . but see below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    The M8 image is really much better imho - apart from the obvious IR problem affecting the wool colour.

    The wool looks out of focus with the G1... what do you think caused that?

    Thanks Jono

    Brian
    I'm a little confused as well - I really did try and get the focus perfectly on the apple, and it does look like I've succeeded. Theoretically, at the same f stop, the G1 shot ought to have more depth of field, not less.

    The M8 shouldn't have been showing IR problems though (the lens is coded, it had an IR filter, and the coding was switched on).

    This stuff is so intangible - but I suppose the results really bear out my (dreadfully subjective) gut feeling, which is that the M8 just makes better files.

    Worth noting also that the G1 is louder than the M8.(blind tested with the boss)

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Brad



    it looks like it's out of focus doesn't it . . . but see below:



    I'm a little confused as well - I really did try and get the focus perfectly on the apple, and it does look like I've succeeded. Theoretically, at the same f stop, the G1 shot ought to have more depth of field, not less.

    The M8 shouldn't have been showing IR problems though (the lens is coded, it had an IR filter, and the coding was switched on).

    This stuff is so intangible - but I suppose the results really bear out my (dreadfully subjective) gut feeling, which is that the M8 just makes better files.

    Worth noting also that the G1 is louder than the M8.(blind tested with the boss)
    And if you get the upgraded shutter the M8 is quieter still. Love mine

    Woody

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    Senior Member Y.B.Hudson III's Avatar
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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    buy sum gLassez guys... the focus is shift'd towards t' w00L in the first and towards the front of the appLe in the second... t' M8 appLe sucKs ... IMH0

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    And if you get the upgraded shutter the M8 is quieter still. Love mine

    Woody
    Hi Woody
    It WAS the upgraded shutter - without it the G1 is quieter

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Y.B.Hudson III View Post
    buy sum gLassez guys... the focus is shift'd towards t' w00L in the first and towards the front of the appLe in the second... t' M8 appLe sucKs ... IMH0
    Agree, on M8 focus shift. G1 sharper at focus point. Toss up image quality wise, both are good.

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Y.B.Hudson III View Post
    buy sum gLassez guys... the focus is shift'd towards t' w00L in the first and towards the front of the appLe in the second... t' M8 appLe sucKs ... IMH0
    Maybe marginally - but It IS marginal - I'd have thought that the extra dof on the G1 would make up for it.

    One thing I WILL say is the critical focusing is much much MUCH easier on the G1

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    One thing I WILL say is the critical focusing is much much MUCH easier on the G1

    thank god i like blurry emotional images

    seriously, thank you for this. i do prefer the Leica image and process almost everything to b/w anyways so colour doesn't really bother me. the M8 is more tactile IMO. i do admit the easier focusing is tempting (my eyes aren't that great) and just about the.*only* thing that tempts me. but not quite enough...

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Hi Cam
    Like this?





    It's worth saying that, although the G1 is much easier to focus accurately . . the M8 is much much MUCH faster to focus inaccurately

    As for the eyes - you must be much younger than me (57) mine are dreadful, but contact lenses are the photographer's friend (a distance one to look through the viewfinder, and a close one in the other eye to read the controls)

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Cam
    Like this?
    black and white just floats my boat

    It's worth saying that, although the G1 is much easier to focus accurately . . the M8 is much much MUCH faster to focus inaccurately
    speed is good (well, sometimes)

    As for the eyes - you must be much younger than me (57) mine are dreadful, but contact lenses are the photographer's friend (a distance one to look through the viewfinder, and a close one in the other eye to read the controls)
    contact lenses here as well, blind as a bat. not as good as they can be to keep me from getting reading glasses. i have a magnifier/diopter on my camera, but still... i can see reading glasses in the near future. and i absolutely could not do that two different lenses thingy you do. i'd fall flat on my face!

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Apart from the focus issue, it is obvious that coding and IR cut filter do not do much to the M8's IR woes.

    There is minimal effect (I am not surprised) with respect to DOF with the different crops/sensor sizes.

    The shadow noise (even at base ISO) from G1 is exactly what I find soo annoying. As I said before, even D40x (10mp, with a heavy AA filter and 2.5mm thick filter stack on the CCD, unlike the M8) beats the G1 hands down.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    I challenge you to tell me which has greater shadow noise. Even highly enlarged I don't see any significant difference. I wasn't careful on sizing the crops.
    Last edited by barjohn; 23rd August 2009 at 20:56.
    V/r John

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    I think the DOF difference is because the 75 is a 150 on the G1 and only a 97.5 on the M8 so while in theory the G1 should have greater DOF it is offset by the crop multiplier.

    To my eyes the G1 looks better and more realistic. The apple is much clearer and as the center of attention stands out from the background objects as it should. The M8 favors the wool ball to the left but then renders its colors incorrectly (only supposed to happen with synthetics) and thus would be a poor shot if the intent was to make the apple the objet of the picture. Change the apple to a person and it becomes a throw away. Who would care about the wool ball? If it is a portrait you want the person to look good and the eyes sharply in focus. Finally, you want the colors right.
    V/r John

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    I challenge you to tell me which has greater shadow noise. Even highly enlarged I don't see any significant difference. I wasn't careful on sizing the crops.
    Beats me, John. If I look at something like that I would not find any difference at all!

    What I said is based on what I see with my own snaps and for my own purpose. Yes, of course, you can challenge it, interpret it as you wish.

    BTW, the wool with the odd M8 colors has synthetic dye and that reacts to IR.

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    I think the DOF difference is because the 75 is a 150 on the G1 and only a 97.5 on the M8 so while in theory the G1 should have greater DOF it is offset by the crop multiplier.
    Ummmm.... no. The crop multiplier is just that, a crop multiplier. The DOF stays the same for any given focal length regardless of sensor size, but will increase when you move away from the subject to obtain the same crop

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Jorgen,
    OK, then please explain what our eyes see.

    Vivek, my point exactly. If you can't see it objectively, it's called wishful thinking...er viewing.
    V/r John

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    I threw this so called "objectivity" out the window a long time ago. Usage of that word even in so called "exact" areas of science is purely subjective, IME.

    There is so much waste of a debate/discussion centered around, for example, depth of focus. The whole thing starts with an assumption and gets more "interesting" with an estimation of circle of confusion and then it becomes down right ridiculous when numbers are thrown around claiming "objectivity".

    All I see, John, is the pixelated grey in the upper B&W snipe you show and the lack of that pixelation in the bottom clip. Do I interpret it otherwise? No way!

    Bottom line for me is what works for me. I am not here to recommend/promote anything on behalf of anyone. I do not have any intentions to market reviews in the future (oh, yes, the word "credibility" gets thrown around loosely as well) either.
    If am wrong.. <shrug>

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Jorgen,
    OK, then please explain what our eyes see.
    No I can't and although the theory is clear enough (check dofmaster.com for the exact figures), there's an abundance of gray areas. Just have a look over at the dpreview forums. I'm convinced some people over there would have killed their opponent if they could, over tiny disagreements about DOF, not least considering the 4/3 format.

    Different lenses behave differently, and render differently, also depending on the distance to the subject. At least that's my experience, but I'm in no way a scientist. Still, the main rule is very easy to relate to. As for Jonos images, my guess is that they aren't focused at exactly the same spot. It's impossible to see from an image if it's front focused in relation to the closest subject, but I'm only guessing of course.

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Jorgen,
    OK, then please explain what our eyes see.
    HI John
    I think that Jorgen has it, the focus point is just slightly forward on the G1 (probably only by a couple of mm)

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Vivek, my point exactly. If you can't see it objectively, it's called wishful thinking...er viewing.
    I'm with Vivek here - there is no objective answer to this issue - it's about feel and subjectivity (for instance you prefer the G1 shot, others prefer the M8).

    as for the IR issue - it's under artificial lighting, and it certainly is a synthetic dye. It's actually very unusual to see any IR effect when using the filter. God knows what that wool would look like without it

    Just this guy you know

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    Senior Member Will's Avatar
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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Deliberately not finding out which image was from which camera I've spent quite a while just trying to decide which image I liked looking at best.
    The wool colour wasn't an issue since I had no idea what it should have been.

    So, purely as an independent observer who hasn't ever used either camera I found I preferred the Leica image, and the more I looked at them the more I preferred it. I then checked to see which camera captured the images and wrote this.

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    The point I was making is that when you know which camera an image comes from it influences your opinion based on your bias toward one camera or another. If the information is hidden from you and you can't distinguish which image is better that tells you that it is your bias fooling the eyes and not really the image.
    V/r John

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    I looked at a g1 the other day and could not manually focus the thing in the viewfinder very well the pull out screen I could but there goes the stealth factor was I doing something wrong? I was at a camera store and the salesman was useless.

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    I bought the G1 not knowing what kind of image quality there is. I own many other cameras besides this and based on my own experiences with them (not arbitrary grey clips), I draw my own conclusions and choose the gear that suits my tasks.

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Vivek,

    The grey clips were just to show that shadow noise, at least in the images posted was indistinguishable. You may be one of those people that have enough experience with each of your cameras that you can tell at a glance when looking at images taken of the same scene such that the crops were the same size, which camera took which image. I would venture a GUESS that very few people could do that if the images were all tweaked for optimum and white balance and there were no dead giveaways like blacks that looked magenta. I know I can't. I have a mix of Canon G7, Nikon D90, M8 and G1 images in my library and I can often be fooled. The G7 is the easiest to catch on close examination because of the greater DOF and visibly higher noise in many cases.
    V/r John

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Vivek,
    You may be one of those people that have enough experience with each of your cameras that you can tell at a glance when looking at images taken of the same scene such that the crops were the same size, which camera took which image.

    It was clear from your earlier post what you enjoy most. This tactic of trying to volunteer what I can or can not tell and all such nonsense won't work.

    If you are looking for arguments for the sake of arguments, you need look for another person. I am sorry.

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Vivek,

    Sorry, I thought I was being complimentary. I already admitted that I couldn't do it. No intent to start an argument, either you can or you can't, doesn't bother me either way.
    V/r John

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    Re: Leica 75 'cron on M8 and G1

    Hi John,

    My apologies for the harsh post. I thank you for responding kindly to it.

    About a decade ago, I bought the book, "Image Clarity" with the intent to make "high resolution" photos (film age). Oh, yes, with a 1951 USAF resolution target in hand, I set out in my quest. While I did pick up several neat technical aspects in that process, I got really interested in photography and realized the silliness of my initial quest. Did I hear that it would all be silly when I started, oh yes! OK, let us not go there to the wasted time...
    You get the idea, right?

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