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Thread: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

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    Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Dpreview posted an interview with Setsuya Kataoka from Olympus that high res shooting will be soon possible within 1/60th of a second!

    Soon, 40MP without the tripod: A conversation with Setsuya Kataoka from Olympus: Digital Photography Review

    Excellent news and shows the innovation potential of that company! Just imagine what that would mean with future higher resolution sensors .....
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Mmm, after reading that interview the more reason I see to wait a little ...

    Bart ...
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    I liked the idea of opening up an SDK for their "Air" do-it-yrself camera kit. If they are worried about defending the low end of the Olympus product line from cell phone apps, getting started on letting lots of users create cool connectivity modes for their better images is an important step. HP tried to sell an "open" camera system a few years back, but backed away from it.

    And it sounds as if when they refresh the E-M1 there will be further improvements in IBIS coming. I noticed the remark that they explored 4, 8 and 16 shots. So they reached a clear conclusion that taking four shots as a group was a big win, since it gives really clear color and eliminates Moire aliasing. And then either the accuracy of the chip shifting or the resolution limits of the Pro lens line (or both) set the achievable resolution limit at .7 pixels (the diagonal spacing between the two sets of 4 shots) and not at .5 pixels (what you can do with four sets of 4 shots each). If they can make the whole thing run fast enough for hand-holding, I'd be happy with just four shots.

    scott

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    And it sounds as if when they refresh the E-M1 there will be further improvements in IBIS coming. I noticed the remark that they explored 4, 8 and 16 shots. So they reached a clear conclusion that taking four shots as a group was a big win, since it gives really clear color and eliminates Moire aliasing. And then either the accuracy of the chip shifting or the resolution limits of the Pro lens line (or both) set the achievable resolution limit at .7 pixels (the diagonal spacing between the two sets of 4 shots) and not at .5 pixels (what you can do with four sets of 4 shots each). If they can make the whole thing run fast enough for hand-holding, I'd be happy with just four shots.

    scott
    Indeed - I would love to be able to kind of limit my number of shots so I could get to the resolution I really need. I think 4 shots sound like a sweetspot currently for shortening exposure time, while substantially increasing resolution.

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Mmm, after reading that interview the more reason I see to wait a little ...

    I don't :-) But then it all depends what we are shooting. 1/60 is not fast enough for the majority of photography I do as fast as it is (on the streets)- and I think the high resolution modes are great but I am not sure it really benefits street shooting super much.

    Landscapes and product photography is another story.

    Finally, the first show of this tech will most likely be an E-M1 MKII, which is a size/form factor I don't like (speaking for myself of course, not saying it's bad by itself), and it will be at least a year from now or two until it trickles to an EM5 MKIII.

    - Ricardo
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    probably via a firmware update... the IBIS is already capable of moving fast enough. So current EMII users would be able to benefit. (what's the point of they can't? it would only make people wait for the next generation)

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    probably via a firmware update... the IBIS is already capable of moving fast enough. So current EMII users would be able to benefit. (what's the point of they can't? it would only make people wait for the next generation)
    Well, Olympus probably wants to sell each of us M-1 owners a newer model. But it's not just how fast the IBIS can move the sensor but also how quickly and accurately it can stop it at the new location. I knew the workings once of a big machine that drilled about 5000 holes in a printed circuit board. Ten percent of the time in the drilling process was spent moving the board to the next hole position, 90 percent in stopping it and checking that it was in the right place. Drilling was instantaneous, like taking a picture will be.

    scott

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Indeed - I would love to be able to kind of limit my number of shots so I could get to the resolution I really need. I think 4 shots sound like a sweetspot currently for shortening exposure time, while substantially increasing resolution.

    Peter
    Read somewhere that apparently the issue is that 4-shots are covered by a patent (Hasselblad would be my guess).

    - Ricardo

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Read somewhere that apparently the issue is that 4-shots are covered by a patent (Hasselblad would be my guess).

    - Ricardo
    Could be the case!

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Read somewhere that apparently the issue is that 4-shots are covered by a patent (Hasselblad would be my guess).

    - Ricardo
    If that were the case (4-shots to un-Bayer), the patent would also cover the 8-shot Olympus version, which takes 4 shots around each of two locations. Hasselblad offers two settings, 4 shots and 6 shots. Six shots sounds like a terrible idea, since it re-introduces Bayer artifacts, which the Olympus example seems to show are a more important source of apparent loss of sharpness than the finite pixel size. Fuji's problems with the expanded "random" Bayer cell in their latest cameras also shows that color acutance is more important than we may have thought.

    So I'm hoping for a four-shot version in which the image stabilization still is operating (4 shots from a slowly moving frame frame of reference which the IBIS cancels out) for my OM-D E-M1 Vii. Where do I put my order in?

    scott
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    If that were the case (4-shots to un-Bayer), the patent would also cover the 8-shot Olympus version, which takes 4 shots around each of two locations.
    No, not necessarily. Olympus is doing a couple of things weird as someone who used the RAWdigger found- the 2nd set of 4 shots have an RGB range "capped" - it's not the full range. Why? Don't know. It may very well be that doing their 8 shots improves the image quality over the 4 shot solution, though we were wondering 4-shots for 16 MP only.

    Hasselblad offers two settings, 4 shots and 6 shots. Six shots sounds like a terrible idea, since it re-introduces Bayer artifacts, which the Olympus example seems to show are a more important source of apparent loss of sharpness than the finite pixel size.
    That depends on how Hasselblad handles the 6 shots- if for example, they picked only luminance from green photo sites from the extra two. Not saying they are doing this, just pointing out it's not necessarily the case.

    Fuji's problems with the expanded "random" Bayer cell in their latest cameras also shows that color acutance is more important than we may have thought.
    I disagree with Fuji's problems - I think the best raw converters show a lot of detail in the conversions. It depends on some subjects and Fuji benefits from extra green/luminance/detail photo sites. The raw converters that convert it well, the images look pretty darn good. In B&W even more so.

    So I'm hoping for a four-shot version in which the image stabilization still is operating (4 shots from a slowly moving frame frame of reference which the IBIS cancels out) for my OM-D E-M1 Vii. Where do I put my order in?

    scott
    Looks again there is a patent on that. But we'll see. Keep in mind Olympus was talking 10-shot for the 1/60 version, not 4 shots. So it's more about them moving the sensor faster with more accuracy and faster processing of the incoming data than doing less shots.

    - Ricardo
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    It seems a logical step to improve the 8-frame 40megapixel merge into a merge with image alignment within the camera. (1/60th or 2 seconds : irrelevant)
    Doesn't take too much processing and should be a doddle to actually achieve, minus the fudge with moving objects but you can't have everything.

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Mmm, after reading that interview the more reason I see to wait a little ...
    Yes indeed. I'm glad I'm outfitted with good mFT lenses. A new body a year or two down the line is a relatively small expense compared to buying a new lens system, and even the current E-M1/E-PL7 perform very well. They'll suffice for some time to come. :-)

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Same thoughts from my side

    After reading through all the info about high res implementation I meanwhile an sure to wait for at least 1 new incarnation - say EM1 Mark2 or even longer.

    For me a slight increase in base resolution (maybe 20MP) while slightly improving DR from todays 16MP m43 sensors would be something much more important than any high res implementation anyway.

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    So do we agree: the silent shutter is its main attraction ?
    Bart ...
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    So do we agree: the silent shutter is its main attraction ?
    LOL! I'm not sure about that. I depend on hearing the shutter click to know that I've made the exposure. I find it quite disconcerting when I press the button on my Leica X and cannot hear the shutter click ... I've turned on the shutter simulation sound so that I know when I've made the exposure. ;-)

    Obviously, for eliminating vibration, the silent, all electronic shutter operation is a great thing...!

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    ....

    Looks again there is a patent on that. But we'll see. Keep in mind Olympus was talking 10-shot for the 1/60 version, not 4 shots. So it's more about them moving the sensor faster with more accuracy and faster processing of the incoming data than doing less shots.

    - Ricardo
    You must be quoting information from another source than the interview in DPReview. Where can I read about possible patents and 10-shot schemes?

    scott

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL! I'm not sure about that. I depend on hearing the shutter click to know that I've made the exposure. I find it quite disconcerting when I press the button on my Leica X and cannot hear the shutter click ... I've turned on the shutter simulation sound so that I know when I've made the exposure. ;-)

    Obviously, for eliminating vibration, the silent, all electronic shutter operation is a great thing...!

    G
    LOL - indeed, a silent shutter is just as annoying as a noisy shutter !
    Bart ...

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    So do we agree: the silent shutter is its main attraction ?
    Yes - but not because it's silent (nice though that sometimes is) - but for the shutter speed, and the opportunity to shoot fast lenses wide open in good light (without needing an ND filter).

    Still not enough for me to jump this time though.

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yes - but not because it's silent (nice though that sometimes is) - but for the shutter speed, and the opportunity to shoot fast lenses wide open in good light (without needing an ND filter).

    Still not enough for me to jump this time though.
    Mmm, well perhaps - but one stop won't save you from grabbing for your ND filter on a bright day, me thinks.
    Last Sunday even the Z40-150 at f/2.8 and 1/8000 dropped the ISO value as low as 100.
    But fair enough - let's rephrase my statement: the attraction is for its silent and fast shutter ...

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    So do we agree: the silent shutter is its main attraction ?
    I would say (now more so that I have it and used it for two days- will post some impressions soon)- the silent shutter + improved IBIS + overall set of refinements- this means slightly better interface, better build, better LCD, better EVF, super quiet regular shutter... it's like, take the OMD EM5 and refine several areas of it. The whole thing adds up to a more attractive package.

    So Silent shutter + IBIS + group of refinements I would say are the stand outs. 40 MP resolution shots are gravy. If yo are a product photographer than the 40 MP resolution may be a key aspect.

    - Ricardo
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    LOL - indeed, a silent shutter is just as annoying as a noisy shutter !
    It depends on needs and wants. To me silent shutter is a requirement.

    - Ricardo

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    You must be quoting information from another source than the interview in DPReview. Where can I read about possible patents and 10-shot schemes?

    scott
    I didn't say the patent deal was from an interview- someone else, somewhere else mentioned this. I can't recall at the moment where I read on 10 shot but I believe that yes, it was Olympus that commented on it. If I remember I'll post the links.

    - Ricardo

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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Mmm, well perhaps - but one stop won't save you from grabbing for your ND filter on a bright day, me thinks.
    It's not one stop but two (1/16,000 for the electronic shutter). This is the speed I can use to shoot wide open in many situations on the Nikon 1 J4 with the 32mm F1.2, so I can certainly see how it would work with the OMD EM5 MKII. Of course, if you have one of those 0.95 Voitlangers you still need the ND filter :-)

    Last Sunday even the Z40-150 at f/2.8 and 1/8000 dropped the ISO value as low as 100.
    But fair enough - let's rephrase my statement: the attraction is for its silent and fast shutter ...

    Kind regards.
    Also keep in mind the scenario of shooting a concert. I have been in that situation now 6 times in the last 3 years, where complete silence is not optional but required. Yes, I am talking about quiet. Have a shutter and get kicked out kinda situation :-) Real world. Some classical music student recitals, 2 chorus concerts, one Cello quartet group.

    That all said, not everyone is in those situations and needs one. That's understandable. But there's a set of people who do.

    - Ricardo
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    Re: Soon High Res Shooting without tripod

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    I would say (now more so that I have it and used it for two days- will post some impressions soon)- the silent shutter + improved IBIS + overall set of refinements- this means slightly better interface, better build, better LCD, better EVF, super quiet regular shutter... it's like, take the OMD EM5 and refine several areas of it. The whole thing adds up to a more attractive package.

    So Silent shutter + IBIS + group of refinements I would say are the stand outs. 40 MP resolution shots are gravy. If yo are a product photographer than the 40 MP resolution may be a key aspect.

    - Ricardo

    Having used my E-M5 II now for two days you seem to describe very accurately my experiences as well. Thank you. Most importantly I find this camera a joy to use.
    With best regards, K-H.

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