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Sean Reid's observations on M mount lenses on the G1

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
M mount lenses on the G1

Here's my try at this. I shot the same scene with an M8 and a 50 Lux asp, and a G1 (red if it matters to you) with a 28 chron ASP on a Camerquest adapter. I selected the 28 chron (as opposed to something wider) on the theory that it doesn't require heavy lifting by the G1 in terms of the angle of incident light in the corners.

I also shot the G1 with a 25mm Lux (a native 4/3rds lens) on the Panasonic 4/3 to micro 4/3 adapter, as well as with the kit lens. For fun I shot the same scene with an LX3 with maximum zoom.

All exposures were at ISO 100 (160 in the case of the M8) and f5.6 to give all the components a break in terms of critical focus. I used infinity focus to avoid backfocus and other issues. The two Leica lenses produce sensational results in daily use (on the M8), have recently been CLAd and have no issues whatsoever. They really are the gold standard. I removed filters for purposes of the test.

I set up on a Gitzo GT 3530 tripod and used the self timer delay for all shots. I developed all images in LR applying capture sharpening (generally 85 or so with an r of .8)

Here is the big picture (crops, which are in the next post, are from the upper right corner):

View attachment 12417
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
M mount lenses on the G1

Some observations on this tough brick wall test:

1. The images that come off of the Leica's 10.3 m sensor amaze me daily.

2. Even at these low ISOs the Leica has a noise advantage (perhaps a stop or two) over the G1 - this is clearly evident in the windows on the right. Sensor size matters - I'm really looking forward to an M9 with a "full sized" CCD sensor.

3. I would rate corner resolution of the lenses on the G1 as follows: the 25 'lux is best, but this is a large, expensive lens so that should be expected; kit lens is second best but very close behind the 25 'lux; 28 'chron asp is a distant last. On the M8 the corners of 28 chron look just like the corner crop from 50 lux - the problem is not with the lens but with how it interacts with the camera. Note that contrast on the bricks is very low and taken as a whole the image looks like it moved slightly during exposure (which it didn't) in a radial direction.

4. The little bittie LX3 puts up a plausible showing - again sensor size tells and noise overwhelms the resolution that the lens is delivering.
 
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Cindy Flood

Super Moderator
Woody,
Thank you for the very thoughtful test. Your comment "the image looks like it moved slightly during exposure (which it didn't) in a radial direction." is exactly what I thought when I looked at Jonas's bookshelf shot with the CV 28/2.
What Raw developer did you use?

You said that you focused at infinity. Are you sure that your adapter allows the 28 summicron to reach infinity? I'm not quite there with my adapter on any of my M-mount lenses. (I tried photographing the moon._

The M8 sure delivered, didn't it?:eek:
 
Very interesting data, Per. What vintage 35 R?
It´s the old model, with rectangular hood (pre -76, Canada made). When I used it regularly with film (on SL´s and a R6), I considered it one of my better lenses; better than my R 50.

Might just as well describe the others, too. The R 50 is a pre -76 one, too, with separate, reversible hood (Wetzlar made), and the R 90 has Series VII filter mount, with retaining ring (Canada made).

The M 35 is a beat-up oldie, from 1968 according to Rogliatti. When used on my M2, I considered it rather low in contrast, but OK resolution-wise. The M 50 is even older (1962), but far better optically; I then considered it my sharpest lens. The M 90 (Tele-Elmarit; all the others are Summicrons) is the "slimmed" one, (post -74, Canada made).

So the relevance of my impressions for those using more recent glass is probably limited; still, I never found any of them lacking in corner performance when I used them regularly.
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Woody,
Thank you for the very thoughtful test. Your comment "the image looks like it moved slightly during exposure (which it didn't) in a radial direction." is exactly what I thought when I looked at Jonas's bookshelf shot with the CV 28/2.
What Raw developer did you use?

You said that you focused at infinity. Are you sure that your adapter allows the 28 summicron to reach infinity? I'm not quite there with my adapter on any of my M-mount lenses. (I tried photographing the moon._

The M8 sure delivered, didn't it?:eek:
Cindy - Thanks for your response.

Images were developed in Lightroom (in other words ACR) - I exported the jpegs to upload directly from Lightroom. Silkypix gives excellent results but I don't have time to master another large and complex software package - particularly given the limited use that I give the G!.

By the way, I meant "windows on the left" in my note above. I have a serious problem with my "right" and "left".

Here is a center crop from the G1 plus 28 Chron file, demonstrating that center resolution and thus probably focus, are fine - and also demonstrating that the camera in fact did not move. Nonetheless there is an odd quality to the way the image renders that I don't understand. All four corners exhibit similar problems to the upper left.

View attachment 12423
 
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... Nonetheless there is an odd quality to the way the image renders that I don't understand.....
Looks slightly psychedelic, indeed. Could it possibly be our old friend from another thread: air turbulence from temperature differences (these can occur any time of the year in cities, not just hot summer days)?
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Looks slightly psychedelic, indeed. Could it possibly be our old friend from another thread: air turbulence from temperature differences (these can occur any time of the year in cities, not just hot summer days)?
Plausible suggestion. Here's the center crop from the M8 plus 50 'lux asp file:

View attachment 12426

For comparison here is the G1+ 28 chron file scaled the same way (part of weirdness that we saw above could be the greater than 100% enlargement):

View attachment 12427
 

monza

Active member
That was my first thought as well, regarding the psychedelia. Perhaps at test closer than infinity would be in order...

All in all, I'm very happy with my G1. I don't own any M glass except for a mint Summarit-M 50/1.5, which performs in rather unique, pleasing ways, I would say. It's not something I would use if I wanted super resolution, in any case.

For all the floggings that the M8 has taken over the past couple of years, it is clear that it is a superb performer and the engineering that went into it was not trivial.

I must say I'm extremely pleased with my choice of a few select Olympus Pen lenses, they have proven to be stellar. It probably helps (with regards to the G1) that they were designed for a smaller format. Also, there is no other digital platform with which to compare them, unlike M-mount lenses. :)
 

jlm

Workshop Member
would have been interesting to see the G1 plus 50 lux to compare to the stunning M8 plus 50 lux.

also the M8m and 28 cron
thanks woody; going blind yet?

jm
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
would have been interesting to see the G1 plus 50 lux to compare to the stunning M8 plus 50 lux.

also the M8m and 28 cron
thanks woody; going blind yet?

jm
This issue is the crop factor on the G1, which is half the size of the M8 sensor-wise. The 25mm on the G1 produces roughly the same field of view as the 50 on the M8. That's why I selected these lenses.

In the end I've made the point to my satisfaction - I can actually go back to real shooting.
 

peterv

New member
Thanks for posting these testshots Woody. I recognise the 28 Cron corners on the G1. This is the distortion I was talking about. And still, this is at f5,6... The tests I did at f2.0 look far worse even.

BTW the 25 Lux D has peak performance at f2,8-f4,0 so this lens could come out a little better than in this test.
 

peterv

New member
Looks slightly psychedelic, indeed. Could it possibly be our old friend from another thread: air turbulence from temperature differences (these can occur any time of the year in cities, not just hot summer days)?
Interesting you should mention that. Could be air turbulence indeed. But I still wonder if it's something else. I've seen it in pictures posted on flickr too. The edges of the crane's cables are fringed, but the more diagonal ones are the worst in a regular pattern. Isn't turbulance more 'random'?
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Thanks for posting these testshots Woody. I recognise the 28 Cron corners on the G1. This is the distortion I was talking about. And still, this is at f5,6... The tests I did at f2.0 look far worse even.

BTW the 25 Lux D has peak performance at f2,8-f4,0 so this lens could come out a little better than in this test.
Thanks for the tip - I've been very impressed by the 25 Lux - the only issue I've had with it is that it seems somewhat prone to flare, which you can work around if you recognize the issue. Of course its size somewhat vitiates the G1's small form factor. But it pretty much lives on my G1 - which I bought to have a camera that autofocuses in poor available light.
 
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Jonas

Active member
Sort of group reply, nothing important

If you looked at Sean's test of the CV28/2 you would see that even on the M8 it is soft in the corners at f2. It is softer focused even in the center at f2 compared to the f1.9 nockton and the 28 cron. It isn't until f5.6 that it is getting close and at f8 it looks pretty good.
Maybe I should pay the few dollars he is asking for. OTOH I'm not that worried about the resolution. "Sharpness" is overrated and I'm more interested in overall pleasing rendering. The Summicron is interesting of course.

Jonas, I think you're just confirming for yourself what we already know from Sean's review.

Maybe this is why the 20mm f1.7 won't arrive for some months... The 25mm f2.8 pancake for 4/3rds was quite an achievement. And that's for Olympus.

At this short FL you can have slow or big, pick one ;)

For street shooting, maybe the lumix 14-45mm kit lens is the optimum choice for now?
Then Sean must be right. ;)

I have expressed my concerns on the 20/1.7 earlier. It will be very interesting to see how it performs!

Slow or big - or both. yuk!

Sorry if i confused the issue with the focus shift. Here is a thought and not sure it applies though. Does the G1 with the Raws in ACR and other programs correcting for distortion and such even if it does not know the lens on it. From these examples there certainly is falloff of sharpness but i wonder if the G1 is making general corrections in the raw on any lens if this could be the issue. Just a thought. Seems the wider the lens the worse the issue
No problem about the moments of confusion around the focus shift. I should have listed my shooting method when posting the crops.
I can't imagine the G1 does any corrections to the raw files, not with the Panny G lenses, not with any other lens.

(...)
I use those lenses that give me good pics in practice (and I use them for people, not bookshelves....:toocool:). But I´ll follow the discussions from ringside...
But you are looking close to other people's bookshelf... haha. Some testing is of interest - but only with regards to real shooting. Isn't that a given?

best regards to all, /Jonas
 

Jonas

Active member
Zeiss C/Y 35/1.4 result

What is needed is for some easy testing of as many lenses as possible, to determine which ones exhibit the problem, and to what degree.
Here is a monster lens, made for 24x36mm film cameras, great resolution, good reputation, decent bokeh and a high price, up for test on the G1. Mounted to the camera using a cheapo C/Y-->4/3 adapter and then the Panny 4/3 to micro4/3 adapter.



Hmm. No jaws dropped here. It's decent but the smearing is there (and quite some CA). Now this lens isn't of interest anyway. Size, weight and price make it a no-no in my book.
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
Taking a different tack on corner smearing



Kamera Kat, my faithful wooden companion in my exploration of the corner-smearing conundrum. The Kat is almost exactly as high as my own face, from top of head to chin, so provides me with an infinitely patient headshot proxy.


I've been following this discussion with some trepidation. After my initial experience with the G1, I actually had made up my mind to return it.

But then I started second-guessing myself: my test conditions were unusually awful even by my standards, and a surprising number of "civilians" who looked at the pictures liked them. I had the G1 all boxed up and ready to go back to the store, but kept putting it off, struggling to make a decision about it... and eventually the time limit for returning it had passed, and I still had it, and I had made up my mind to be pleased about that.

Then this corner-smearing thing came up, courtesy of Sean Reid and his pay-to-play website. This was a big deal to me, since my main justification for the G1 was as an alternative platform to my Epson R-D 1 for my odd collection of M-mount lenses.

I dropped my Reid subscription after the first year, but since he seems to have a more-than-just-good-friends relationship with Leica, I had to assume he has more experience with Leica optics than I do (having sold my last Leica lens about 20 years ago.) And some of the photos in this thread seemed to show issues very clearly.





So finally this evening I decided to do my own evaluation, but with my own methodology -- one a bit different from what Reid seems to have used and what others have used here. It's going to sound odd and unscientific to some of you, but it's based closely on how I, personally, take pictures and evaluate them. Here's what I did:

1) I almost never take pictures of brick walls or bookcases, but I do want the freedom to position my subject where I want it in the frame. Whether I decide to put the subject dead-center or off in some corner, I want to have it look reasonably detailed, not smeary. So instead of shooting single pictures and cropping out centers and corners, I shot pairs of pictures of the same subject: once in the center of the frame, and again recomposed so it's off in one corner.

2) I'm not interested in evaluating absolute image quality. What I want to find out is whether pictures taken with the G1 are going to be significantly worse than ones taken with my Epson R-D 1. The R-D 1 may not be the ultimate in image quality, but I know exactly what to expect from it and always use it with confidence -- so, I also shot pairs of pictures with the R-D 1 so I could use it as a baseline for comparison.

3) I shot all my test pictures from the same distance, because that's how I generally work: I'm in a fixed position, and choose different lenses to get different angles of view. The lenses I used were a 21mm f/2.8 Avenon and 28/1.9, 35/1.2, and 50/1.5 Cosina-Voigtlanders.

4) Most of my shooting is divided into two conditions: in poor light at wide apertures, or with studio flash at moderate apertures. So I shot each lens at its full aperture, whatever that was, and again at f/8.

5) I cropped the images down to the same subject area. This means different images have different numbers of pixels... but right or wrong, it's the way I evaluate images: I look at something, usually a person's face, and decide whether it has enough detail or not, whether it's filling most of the frame or is just a tiny section. Again, since all I was trying to do was compare the G1's performance to the R-D 1's, I felt this was a valid way to do it.​

So now that you've waded through my rationalizations for my goofy-sounding but pragmatic test method, you may want to know: where are the pictures: Okay...

This set shows all of them scaled to a constant size, because I usually print to fixed sizes rather than enlarging images by a constant percentage. If you stretch your browser window wide enough, you'll be able to compare them four-across -- each row shows either a middle (M) or peripheral (P) version, shot with both cameras at full aperture and f/8.

This set shows the sections at their original sizes, for your pixel-peeping pleasure. You can click on any small image to see the full-frontal-pixel version.​





And for extra controversial fun, I've deliberately made it slightly difficult to tell which camera shot which picture! The letter immediately after the aperture indicates it, but not obviously. (Hint: If you know the parent companies' names, it should be easy.)

Spoiler -- My takeaway: The full-aperture images are softer than the f/8 ones, and the corner images are smearier than the center ones, as you'd expect. But I couldn't find any clear-cut case where the R-D 1 produced a usable image, while the G1 produced an unusable one.

So, after all that, I've decided: at least with the particular cameras and lenses I have, and with my admittedly lax attitude toward Ultimate Image Quality, I'm not going to worry about corner smearing, no matter what Reid says. But remember: Your mileage may vary!

Oops, nearly forgot... for reference, here's an uncropped view of the whole setting. This was with the G1 and the 21mm lens, which means it's almost exactly the same as the R-D 1 with the 28mm lens:

 
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monza

Active member
First I must say, an impressive amount of effort, thanks for that. And some very revealing, surprising results!

Some extremely useful data here, comparing wide open to f/8. Kudos.
 

barjohn

New member
Ok, I give up, what does the f second letter stand for? For the first letter S Seiko and M for Matsu****o were not hard. But it says corner and center yet when you click on the images to get the full size image it always shows a corner.
 
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