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Thread: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

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    So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    In another thread I mentioned I had high hopes for the CV28/2 Ultron. My hope was that it should work well with the G1 as a reasonably fast normal lens. As it didn't pass the smearing border test I don't know what to do really.

    What I am looking for is a lens in the 24-28mm range, at least f/2, manual with good feeling to it, preferably small. In a perfect world there should be one somewhere with nice rendering of the out of focus background stuff.

    Any suggestions?

  2. #2
    meilicke
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Take a look at KEH, occasionally they have some 24mm 2.0 from various manufacturers. Currently there are a few from Minolta and Nikon, possibly others (I did not check them all). My guess is that the SLR lenses exhibit less smearing at the edges because they are all further from the sensor plane than LTM/M, and thus more telecentric. But I have not tested this, nor seen any evidence to suggest this is true.

    -Scott

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Adapters

    Quote Originally Posted by meilicke View Post
    Currently there are a few from Minolta and Nikon, possibly others (I did not check them all).
    I got a 24mm f/2 Nikkor from Ebay for this very reason and I'm hoping there'll be an F/M43 adapter for it soon ...

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    In another thread I mentioned I had high hopes for the CV28/2 Ultron. My hope was that it should work well with the G1 as a reasonably fast normal lens. As it didn't pass the smearing border test I don't know what to do really.

    What I am looking for is a lens in the 24-28mm range, at least f/2, manual with good feeling to it, preferably small. In a perfect world there should be one somewhere with nice rendering of the out of focus background stuff.

    Any suggestions?
    Some of the SLR lenses seem to be performing better than the RF lenses with respect to corner/border distortion, but then there are the size and speed issues. At this point, I'm just waiting to see what the 20 1.7 can do and also the 7-14 for the wide solution.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    For those that like to experiment, there is a 25/1.4 Pentax lens in c mount for under $100. At that price there is little risk, but maybe great reward. It is tiny, too.

  6. #6
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    For those that like to experiment, there is a 25/1.4 Pentax lens in c mount for under $100. At that price there is little risk, but maybe great reward. It is tiny, too.
    Got a link to where one could find out more about these?

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...1_C_Mount.html

    This one has a 30mm rear diameter which should work on the Taiwan c-mount adapters.

  8. #8
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Monza, thanks for that link. Seems as if there's quite an interesting range of C-mount lenses, at, um, a range of prices (check out that $60,000 Fujinon... that should make those Leica M8 poseurs think twice!)

    It's worth noting that apparently not all C-mount lenses are alike, though -- here's a link to an esoteric discussion on the subject from a forum for users of the RED Scarlet HD video camera.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    True, just like in the 35mm world, not all lenses are alike.

    I have ordered a copy of the 25/1.4 Pentax and if it doesn't work out I can always send it back.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    For those that like to experiment, there is a 25/1.4 Pentax lens in c mount for under $100.
    Hi

    That's a fun suggestion. From the available Pentax on-line literature I understand it as the lens is supposed to cover a 1" image circle which would make it suitable for the 4/3 sensor. I also understand it as it is not in the high resolution megapixel series of CCTV lenses (which are bound to have awful bokeh). Interesting!

    Thank you, /Jonas

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by meilicke View Post
    (...)My guess is that the SLR lenses exhibit less smearing at the edges because they are all further from the sensor plane than LTM/M, and thus more telecentric. But I have not tested this, nor seen any evidence to suggest this is true.
    I have tried a Zeiss C/Y 35/1.4 Distagon. No success. I guess we'll have to try them all...

    thank you, /Jonas

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    Re: Adapters

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    I got a 24mm f/2 Nikkor from Ebay for this very reason and I'm hoping there'll be an F/M43 adapter for it soon ...
    I'm looking forward to some results; this lens has a good reputation.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    (...) At this point, I'm just waiting to see what the 20 1.7 can do and also the 7-14 for the wide solution.
    That's a reasonable approach. Now I would very much prefer a manual lens with good overall rendering. I fear the tiny and fast aspherical 20/1.7 will not be to my taste. It will however be hard not to buy it for size and convenience.

  14. #14
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    The 24/2.8 Nikkor is excellent, with great bokeh and floating elements for close focus correction. It's hard to find a wide lens with great bokeh and it's essentially a normal lens on micro 4/3, so makes for a good match.

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    Re: Adapters

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    I got a 24mm f/2 Nikkor from Ebay for this very reason and I'm hoping there'll be an F/M43 adapter for it soon ...
    Novoflex and Rayqual both have direct Nikon F to m4/3 adapters coming out.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    My conclusion: Right now we simply don't know of any good manual normal lens for the G1...

    That's not exactly what I expected when buying the worlds most adoptable digital camera... But we didn't know about the border/corner smearing back then... OK, such things happen to early adopters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    What I am looking for is a lens in the 24-28mm range, at least f/2, manual with good feeling to it, preferably small. In a perfect world there should be one somewhere with nice rendering of the out of focus background stuff.

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Not all C-Mount Lenses ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    It's worth noting that apparently not all C-mount lenses are alike, though -- .
    Indeed so. I went ahead and bought a job lot of three for $93 just to see and can tell you two of them are of no use on the G1. Incredibly enough the one with the shortest focal length is the best of them. Neither these or a Carl Zeiss Jena DDR Tevidon 25mm f/1.4 (for another $39) will focus to anywhere like infinity and are only useful for the odd close-up flower shot "with a difference" IMO. The thing is, if the rear element is too small in diameter don't bother buying it. Examples:
    1) Tevidon 25mm at f/1.4
    2) Tevidon 25mm at f/8
    3) Cosmicar 8.5mm at f/1.5
    4) Cosmicar 8.5mm at f/16

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I have ordered a copy of the 25/1.4 Pentax and if it doesn't work out I can always send it back.
    Please show us the results. I am still experimenting and a 1.4 apertures seems attractive if it fills the whole sensor area with good sharpness and no strong vignetting

    My current favorites:

    - 21-35mm/3.5-4 Vario Elmar R Asph.
    - 20mm/4 Nikkor
    - 16mm/2.8 Zenitar
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    A great number of photos with the Kern Switar 25mm/1.4, as well as Angenieux 25mm F1.4 and 0.95 and other lenses on the G1 are to be found on this Chinese site.

    http://www.four-thirds.cn/forum/thread-94372-3-1.html

    Seems worth a visit.
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Re: Not all C-Mount Lenses ...

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    Neither these or a Carl Zeiss Jena DDR Tevidon 25mm f/1.4 (for another $39) will focus to anywhere like infinity and are only useful for the odd close-up flower shot "with a difference" IMO. The thing is, if the rear element is too small in diameter don't bother buying it. Examples:
    1) Tevidon 25mm at f/1.4
    2) Tevidon 25mm at f/8
    3) Cosmicar 8.5mm at f/1.5
    4) Cosmicar 8.5mm at f/16
    I think you mean rear diameter 'too big.'

    The Tevidon will cover the sensor in 16:9 mode. There are ways for them to focus to infinity.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Thanks for the link.

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    A great number of photos with the Kern Switar 25mm/1.4, as well as Angenieux 25mm F1.4 and 0.95 and other lenses on the G1 are to be found on this Chinese site.

    http://www.four-thirds.cn/forum/thread-94372-3-1.html

    Seems worth a visit.

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: Diameters and infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I think you mean rear diameter 'too big.'
    The Tevidon will cover the sensor in 16:9 mode. There are ways for them to focus to infinity.
    1)
    Diameter of rear lens on C/V Nokton - roughly 2.5mm
    Diameter of rear lens on C/Z Tevidon - roughly 1.4mm
    Diameter of rear lens on Cosmicar 8.5mm - roughly 0.7mm
    My conclusion was - the smaller it is the worse it gets (?)

    3) If there's a dark circle all the way round, how can it cover the sensor in 16:9?

    2)
    Please say how to make them focus to infinity.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by m3photo; 18th February 2009 at 09:46.

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    Re: Diameters and infinity

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    1)
    Diameter of rear lens on C/V Nokton - roughly 2.5mm
    Diameter of rear lens on C/Z Tevidon - roughly 1.4mm
    Diameter of rear lens on Cosmicar 8.5mm - roughly 0.7mm
    My conclusion was - the smaller it is the worse it gets (?)

    3) If there's a dark circle all the way round, how can it cover the sensor in 16:9?

    2)
    Please say how to make them focus to infinity.

    Thanks.
    It's the diameter of the rear of the lens MOUNT (as opposed to the diameter of the glass) that is the critical dimension, when fitting the lens to the c-mount adapter. It is a physical conflict that prevents infinity focus.

    The Cosmicar is not going to cover the sensor, as it's a 2/3" format lens.

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: diameter of the rear of the lens MOUNT

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    It's the diameter of the rear of the lens MOUNT (as opposed to the diameter of the glass) that is the critical dimension, when fitting the lens to the c-mount adapter. It is a physical conflict that prevents infinity focus.

    The Cosmicar is not going to cover the sensor, as it's a 2/3" format lens.
    Sorry I'm dumber than you think ...
    My simple reasoning is this: If the lens is a c-mount it fits on the c-mount adapter; if the diameter of the rear of the lens MOUNT is wrong it won't fit.
    I thought that the difference in the space between the rear element and the film plane/sensor would be the physical conflict that prevents infinity focus.

    If the 2/3" format lens is not the type to play with on the G1, what should we be looking for in c-mount lenses for it?

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Bear in mind that the flange distance of c-mount is ~17.5mm which is less than the flange distance of micro 4/3 (~20mm.) This means the screw threads for the c-mount adapter are recessed into the lens mount of the G1. This limits the rear diameter of c-mount lenses for compatibility.

    The back focal length doesn't seem to be an issue with most c-mount lenses that are of interest (i.e., the distance from the rear element to the sensor, or in this case the limitation is the distance from the rear element to the shutter of the G1.)

    1" format is a 25.4mm image circle; 22mm is the m4/3 image circle.

    Hope this helps!

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: Kind Help

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Hope this helps!
    Very much so, thank you.
    How did you manage to get the Tevidon to work at infinity? I've been sanding it down for three days non-stop (only kidding) and still haven't got very far beyond about 40cm!

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    Re: Adapters

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    I got a 24mm f/2 Nikkor from Ebay for this very reason and I'm hoping there'll be an F/M43 adapter for it soon ...
    Hi,

    maybe you could use the double convertor solution mentionned in the sticky topic ? I'm doing that with my 30 y old Nikon lenses, and it works fine.

    C U
    Rafael

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    The Rayqual Nikon F to m4/3 is supposed to be soon...Novoflex not til May...

  29. #29
    wblynch
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Anyone heard news of an OM to G1 adapter?

    I would like to avoid the intermediate OM-4/3-G1 stack.

  30. #30
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Bill, Novoflex next month...assuming they are still on schedule.

    http://doiop.com/g1adapters

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Robert
    How can one find out when this adapter will appear, and how much it will cost.
    Hopefully it will save me From the $160 for the G1/4/3 adapter.
    Antara

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    I would recommend emailing or calling Novoflex for an update...

    NOVOFLEX Praezisionstechnik GmbH
    Brahmsstr. 7, 87700 Memmingen
    Tel.: +49 8331 88888 Fax: +49 8331 47174
    eMail: [email protected]

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    A great number of photos with the Kern Switar 25mm/1.4, as well as Angenieux 25mm F1.4 and 0.95 and other lenses on the G1 are to be found on this Chinese site.

    http://www.four-thirds.cn/forum/thread-94372-3-1.html

    Seems worth a visit.
    Great resource. The Angenieux 25 1.4 looks great.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    A great number of photos with the Kern Switar 25mm/1.4, as well as Angenieux 25mm F1.4 and 0.95 and other lenses
    Hi Peter,

    Thank you for the link. I have been browsing that thread a couple of times the last two days.

    What I see is that the small C-mount lenses aren't to my taste. The bokeh is in most cases distracting. I did like the Konica 28/1.8 images. But that lens seem big and expensive.

    regards, /Jonas

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    The bokeh is in most cases distracting.
    regards, /Jonas
    Sorry to be so ignorant, but what is "bokeh" ?

    C U
    Rafael

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by f6cvalkyrie View Post
    Sorry to be so ignorant, but what is "bokeh" ?
    Ah, bokeh is a must know when visiting modern photography forums...

    It's a short and handy word for "the quality of the rendering of the out of focus parts of the image".

    EDIT:
    How on earth did rafael turn into f6cvalkyrie?


    Cheers,

    --
    Jonas

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    EDIT:
    How on earth did rafael turn into f6cvalkyrie?

    Cheers,
    Jonas
    Hi Jonas, and thanks for your explanation
    my nickname is just based on the motorcycle I ride but not often enough



    C U,
    Rafael

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    I decided to give the Pentax 25/1.4 a try:

    Above; wide open, handheld, up close and nosy.

    Here is a crop, no sharpening:


    Thank you monza for pointing me to the lens.

    It is too small, fun, sharp in the center, smeary at the borders, badly corrected, does pretty well with a hood attached, nice bokeh, cheap, vignettes and doesn't really cover the sensor. I like it. It isn't really for serious work but good enough in most situations and totally OK for portraits and most snaps.

    Cheers, /Jonas

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    It is too small, fun, sharp in the center, smeary at the borders, badly corrected, does pretty well with a hood attached, nice bokeh, cheap, vignettes and doesn't really cover the sensor. I like it. It isn't really for serious work but good enough in most situations and totally OK for portraits and most snaps.

    Cheers, /Jonas

    Ok so we're still looking for a good manual normal (and hopefully cheap and fast) lens, right?

    Any suggestions? Also if it wasn't 35mm sized that would be great. (I want it all apparently, and I guess I wont' get it until th 20mm 1.7 comes out.)

    Or did someone find the holy grail and I missed it?

  40. #40
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    It is too small, fun, sharp in the center, smeary at the borders, badly corrected, does pretty well with a hood attached, nice bokeh, cheap, vignettes and doesn't really cover the sensor. I like it. It isn't really for serious work but good enough in most situations and totally OK for portraits and most snaps.
    Jonas, that's pretty much sums it up. It does have some barrel distortion but not as much as the Tevidon. Easy to correct in PS.

    Have you tried 16:9? I'm wondering if the smearing is not the Leica-style RF lens smearing, but just "I'm really trying to cover all the sensor but I can't quite do it" smearing.



    100% crop, no sharpening, f/1.4:


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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LizaWitz View Post
    Ok so we're still looking for a good manual normal (and hopefully cheap and fast) lens, right?

    Any suggestions? Also if it wasn't 35mm sized that would be great. (I want it all apparently, and I guess I wont' get it until th 20mm 1.7 comes out.)

    Or did someone find the holy grail and I missed it?
    Cheap, fast and good isn't easy.
    I fear the elusive G 20/1.7 also won't be cheap, fast and good at the same time. Well, that may depend on what you mean with good and how much money you have to spend... We'll see what Panasonic manages to make.

    Right now I use a Canon FDn 24/2. It isn't exactly razor sharp wide open but fully usable.



    regards, /Jonas

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Jonas, that's pretty much sums it up. It does have some barrel distortion but not as much as the Tevidon. Easy to correct in PS.

    Have you tried 16:9? I'm wondering if the smearing is not the Leica-style RF lens smearing, but just "I'm really trying to cover all the sensor but I can't quite do it" smearing.
    Ah, I forgot to mention the distortion. Well, it also has surprisingly little CA, and it is really cute with a hood attached to it.

    No, I think the smearing is the real thing. At least I think it should be as I don't think telecentricity was a priority when the lens was designed. I have no good sample online right now. 16:9... well, the smearing isn't just a corner problem. But many of my images end up close to 1:1 anyway.

    Your dog image made me buy the lens and I don't regret it. Oh, there is also quite some coma...

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LizaWitz View Post
    Ok so we're still looking for a good manual normal (and hopefully cheap and fast) lens, right?

    Any suggestions? Also if it wasn't 35mm sized that would be great. (I want it all apparently, and I guess I wont' get it until th 20mm 1.7 comes out.)

    Or did someone find the holy grail and I missed it?
    the Kern Switar 25/1.4 is sharp wide open, easy to focus ( ergonomics friendly ), but not cheap--relatively speaking. The two Wollensak 1" I have were cheap, not super fast--one is 1.9 and the other is 2.5, and are very good lenses to shoot wided open, but a ergonomics nightmare. Tiny, tiny, tiny lenses. The Som Lytar 1"/1.9 is affordable compared to slr normal lenses and is sharp wide open. I like this one for shooting. So far so good. I don't have my Tevidon YET--taking foever to get here from Europe--but it was another cheapy, and hopefully a good peformer.

  44. #44
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LizaWitz View Post
    Ok so we're still looking for a good manual normal (and hopefully cheap and fast) lens, right?
    Has anybody tried the 28/2 Voigtlander?



    Okay, $579 isn't my idea of "cheap," but I realize there are a lot of people on this forum who are more prosperous than I am.

    I've got the older 28/1.9 screwmount Voigtlander, which I've used on my G1 with pretty good results (contrast is a bit low at full aperture but it seems to clean up nicely with a curve adjustment. No, I haven't pixel-peeped pictures of brick walls to evaluate the corners...)

    The 28/1.9 is $444 silver/$499 black from CameraQuest, but assuming you're using an M>4/3 adapter on your G1, you then need to budget for a screw-to-M adapter, so the cost difference vs. the 28/2 isn't all that persuasive.

    Yes, it's "35mm size" rather than C-mount size, but that means it's less likely to get lost in the bottom of your camera bag :-)

  45. #45
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Cindy Flood reports good results with the 28/1.9, says it is her most used lens on the G1 with no smearing problem.

    http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...1&postcount=27

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Has anybody tried the 28/2 Voigtlander?
    Have a look at the first post...
    I also posted some samples (a nice book shelf) earlier:
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpo...3&postcount=65

  47. #47
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post

    1" format is a 25.4mm image circle; 22mm is the m4/3 image circle.
    Actually the 1" format image circle is only 16mm:

    http://www.siliconimaging.com/Lens%2...%20formats.htm

  48. #48
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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by wjlapier View Post
    the Kern Switar 25/1.4 is sharp wide open, easy to focus ( ergonomics friendly ), but not cheap--relatively speaking. The two Wollensak 1" I have were cheap, not super fast--one is 1.9 and the other is 2.5, and are very good lenses to shoot wided open, but a ergonomics nightmare. Tiny, tiny, tiny lenses. The Som Lytar 1"/1.9 is affordable compared to slr normal lenses and is sharp wide open. I like this one for shooting. So far so good. I don't have my Tevidon YET--taking foever to get here from Europe--but it was another cheapy, and hopefully a good peformer.
    The 25mm/1.4 Xenon might be a good answer, and it covers a 25mm image circle:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5728

    It is quite pricey, though, a good one usually fetches over $200. I just bought a second, newer one, while the old bango that has such wonderful bokeh and color rendition is getting TLC and a new adapter.
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    The 25mm/1.4 Xenon might be a good answer, and it covers a 25mm image circle:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5728

    It is quite pricey, though, a good one usually fetches over $200. I just bought a second, newer one, while the old bango that has such wonderful bokeh and color rendition is getting TLC and a new adapter.
    Thank you Peter for the suggestion. The images in the thread you linked to look good to me. It's wonderful with that soft bokeh.

    The only ones I found was at USD300+... Who is it having a bunch of them for USD200 each? I think the lens was made in C-mount as well, btw.

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    Re: So, what is a good manual normal lens now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Thank you Peter for the suggestion. The images in the thread you linked to look good to me. It's wonderful with that soft bokeh.

    The only ones I found was at USD300+... Who is it having a bunch of them for USD200 each? I think the lens was made in C-mount as well, btw.
    The one I bought reached $232 on ebay and was in C-mount. You have to be patient, there are not many around (unless you want to order a new one from Schneider Kreuznach - if I am not wrong it lists at around $2,000)
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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