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Thread: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

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    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Yesterday I tested the 21mm/2.8 Avenon / Kobalux / Pasoptik (Depending on where you are) Super-Wide LSM lens. It is one of my favorites on the M8.

    On the G1 it displays the known frame corner 'smearing'. As I was not photographing brick walls, here it was not really disturbing. All pictures were taken with the lens wide open. Some sharpening was added in postprocessing




    Letterbox - G1 – Avenon 21mm/2.8 – ISO=100 f/=2.8 1/4000 – Raw Therapee



    Attachment 13257

    Flea Market - G1 – Avenon 21mm/2.8 – ISO=100 f/=2.8 1/3200 – Raw Therapee



    Attachment 13260

    Village Map - G1 – Avenon 21mm/2.8 – ISO=100 f/=2.8 1/3200 – Raw Therapee



    Attachment 13259

    100% crop of Village Map - G1 – Avenon 21mm/2.8 – ISO=100 f/=2.8 1/3200 – Raw Therapee


    Last edited by petermcwerner; 8th March 2009 at 15:56.
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Looks like a nice sharp lens wide open.

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    Ranger 9
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Peter, out of curiosity, may I ask which of the three versions of the Avenon/Kobalux you have?

    I've got the third version, and I notice that when using it with a RayQual/CameraQuest adapter, the rear optical tube of the lens fits just inside the plastic light baffle ring on the adapter; the friction of the tube moving inside this baffle makes the focusing action drag a bit. Just wondered if you had noticed anything similar, or whether this might simply be a tolerance issue.

    Still, the drag is slight; I use the lens on the G1 without any worries and with what seem to me like good overall results, although I admit I haven't checked for corner smearing since I seldom photograph flat objects.

    Like your experience with it on the M8, it's been one of my favorites for use on the Epson R-D 1; in fact, I had to get rid of my 20/2.8 AF Nikkor because its full-aperture performance was so disappointing compared to the Kobalux.

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    Senior Member back alley's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    ranger, do you use an external finder when using the 21 on the rd1?

    i have the zm 21/4.5 and am wondering what fl finder is best.

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    Ranger 9
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by back alley View Post
    ranger, do you use an external finder when using the 21 on the rd1?

    i have the zm 21/4.5 and am wondering what fl finder is best.
    I own the Voigtlander "D-series" finder that CameraQuest sells. It's a nice finder. But external finders are kind of a pain.

    It's a bit sloppy, but I've found that on the R-D 1, the limits of what I can see through the camera viewfinder by "panning" my eye (keeping it centered behind the eyepiece, but looking left, right, up and down) give a pretty good approximation of what the 21mm lens will take in. I discovered this trick while I was shooting my Runway Show series, and used it for all the 21mm pictures in that.

    Of course how well it works will vary depending on your eye, whether you wear glasses or not (I do), etc. And it's certainly not exact -- but if I need to be exact, I can make a test photo and check the framing on the LCD! You might give it a try before you spring for an external viewfinder, then decide if you really need the finder or not.

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    Senior Member back alley's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    thanks.

    i have been shooting w/o a finder and it's 'ok'. i need to test it a bit more and pay better attention when i do. this is an outdoor set up for me as the lens is kinda slow and right now it's too damn cold to enjoy much out
    door shooting.
    the d series finders are sold out and discontinued, so i also need to see if a 28 or 35 film finder is the best way to go.


    joe

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    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Peter, out of curiosity, may I ask which of the three versions of the Avenon/Kobalux you have?

    I've got the third version, and I notice that when using it with a RayQual/CameraQuest adapter, the rear optical tube of the lens fits just inside the plastic light baffle ring on the adapter; the friction of the tube moving inside this baffle makes the focusing action drag a bit. Just wondered if you had noticed anything similar, or whether this might simply be a tolerance issue.
    I have the second version and oddly enough the rear optical tube does not protrude further than the rear of the adapter. Also, it does not move when focusing, so I do not quite understand what could be your problem. None for me with the older version.

    Like your experience with it on the M8, it's been one of my favorites for use on the Epson R-D 1; in fact, I had to get rid of my 20/2.8 AF Nikkor because its full-aperture performance was so disappointing compared to the Kobalux.
    I also have the older 20/4.0 Nikkor and I prefer it when I do not need the faster aperture and the RF coupling. With the Nikkor, zone focusing, I get sharper results and better colors at 5.6 or 8. I have not yet tested it under good conditions on the G1 and shall report on the results when I have them. The 20/4 is preferred by many Nikonians to the later 3.5 and 2.8. See for instance http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/20f4.htm. BTW, I shoot without external finder on the M8, the same way you do on the R-D1

    Here some examples I shot with the Nikkor on the M8: http://www.leicaphoto.net/discus/mes...tml?1184085061
    Peter Werner
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    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Attachment 13273

    Leica DMR – Summicron
    R 90mm/2.0 - ISO=100 1/45 @ /f=2.0 - Raw Therapee


    The Avenon on the G1. Except when on a tripod, I always use a Nikon grip strap on the G1. I have to use the left hand to press the Left Arrow + Menu buttons in order not to accidentally touch the ISO or WB button. A one-button (film mode) activation is my most urgent wish for the next firmware update. The sunshade comes from a third party zoom, it works well on both the G1 and the M8.

    It is the first time I use the DMR since I received the G1 (December 2008). The quality of the results is of course unbelievably good, but it is hard for me to believe I used to carry 2.1Kg (4.6 lbs) for a whole day now that I got used to the G1 or M8
    Last edited by petermcwerner; 9th March 2009 at 03:12.
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by wjlapier View Post
    Looks like a nice sharp lens wide open.
    Thank you for your comment, Bill
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Ranger 9
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    More detail than most people probably are interested in knowing about using 21mm Kobalux lenses on the G1:

    Here's the type-three Kobalux/Avenon on an R-D 1. As you can see, it's more compact than Peter's type-two version, and has a restyled front rim and focusing ring:





    Here's the rear tube that interacts with the light baffle ring on the RayQual/CameraQuest adapter. It's the black projection just above the brass-colored RF coupling cam. The outside diameter of this tube is ~29.98mm. The tube does move in and out during focusing, although the travel is short:





    Here's the RayQual/CameraQuest adapter sitting on the back of the Avenon lens. You can see the rear tube just inside the rim of the light baffle ring. The inside diameter of the ring (which is plastic, so it has a bit of flex in it) is just about exactly 30mm, so it's a "drag fit" against the lens' rear tube which just barely fits inside the baffle ring at infinity. (Sorry about all the dust!)





    Since the ring is plastic, and since the dimensions are so close, I may just take a piece of abrasive paper and enlarge the inside diameter of the light baffle ring very slightly to eliminate the interference. Or I might dedicate my thinned-down Jinfinance adapter to the 21mm lens -- it has no baffle ring, so no clearance problem.

    Still, this is unlikely to affect most people: Peter says the type-two Kobalux doesn't have this projecting rear tube, and since the type-two is more common, it's the version shoppers are more likely to encounter. (I think the type-three version is fairly rare; I was told that the company went out of business shortly after it was introduced.)

    Incidentally, nothing fancy technically about these illustration photos: made them with the G1 and 14-45 kit lens, using a 52>55 step ring and Minolta achromatic (two-element) close-up lens where needed.

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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by back alley View Post
    ranger, do you use an external finder when using the 21 on the rd1?

    i have the zm 21/4.5 and am wondering what fl finder is best.
    I use the Voigtlander 28mm finder with my Voigtlander 21/4 P on the R-D1. It works very well. The finder is bright and sharp, its only downside is the noticeable distortion.

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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Peter says the type-two Kobalux doesn't have this projecting rear tube, and since the type-two is more common, it's the version shoppers are more likely to encounter.
    Attachment 13304

    To be precise, I had another look at the back tube of my second series Kobalux/Avenon: it does have this rear tube, but it is flush with the camera mount. When focusing it moves slightly, hardly visible to the naked eye but does not interfere with the Novoflex adapter. I do not know about other adapters.
    Peter Werner
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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    The Avenon on the G1. Except when on a tripod, I always use a Nikon grip strap on the G1. I have to use the left hand to press the Left Arrow + Menu buttons in order not to accidentally touch the ISO or WB button. A one-button (film mode) activation is my most urgent wish for the next firmware update.
    Peter, just to let you know... I am progressing this at every opportunity through Panasonic UK. This will have a major positive impact on the useability of the G1 with legacy lenses.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Peter, just to let you know... I am progressing this at every opportunity through Panasonic UK. This will have a major positive impact on the useability of the G1 with legacy lenses.

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    Brian,

    Out of curiosity--would this be possible through G1 firmware upgrade? I know I will not upgrade to a G1H in the near future--likely will wait down the road for an upgrade in the future. I can live with it 'as is' of course, but a one button choice would be really nice. If it will only be on the newer versions, then I'll just wait. I've gotten pretty fast with it.

    I need to go back and look at the options for this--now, when we select the left button, it brings up the focus square and allows us to move it around before selecting the OK and bring up the full screen zoom. With the one button push--would we simply bring up the zoom and then just move it around to select the focus area??--and I suppose still be able to choose the focus area size? Of course, we have no way to know how they will implement it LOL--but expect they will take into account the suggestions from people actually using this option.

    Diane

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    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Peter, just to let you know... I am progressing this at every opportunity through Panasonic UK. This will have a major positive impact on the useability of the G1 with legacy lenses.
    That is good news Brian, thank you
    Kind regards
    Peter
    Peter Werner
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    when we select the left button, it brings up the focus square and allows us to move it around before selecting the OK and bring up the full screen zoom. With the one button push--would we simply bring up the zoom and then just move it around to select the focus area??
    I would prefer the one-button operation to show the last selection of the focus area. That would be the fastest way and most of the time - unless on a tripod or for fast moving objects - it would do the job. If I need to change it, I can always go through the longer 2-button operation.

    and I suppose still be able to choose the focus area size?
    That is an independent step as the size is modified by the front wheel. No need to change this.
    Peter Werner
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    Re: One Button Focus Assist

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Peter, just to let you know... I am progressing this at every opportunity through Panasonic UK. This will have a major positive impact on the useability of the G1 with legacy lenses.
    So as not to clash with the Film Mode button in normal circumstances but using it for this purpose it would be only activated when one turns the left focus dial to "Manual", much the same as on many cameras doubling-up switches depending on whether the camera is in shooting mode or review mode.

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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Thank-you for those photos of the lenses, setups with adapters and the issues you've encountered. This is all very helpful for those looking to go wider and fast.

    Peter, is that the AH-4 hand strap from Nikon? Does it fit on the bottom of the camera OK?

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    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by wjlapier View Post
    Peter, is that the AH-4 hand strap from Nikon? Does it fit on the bottom of the camera OK?
    Yes Bill, and it fits perfectly. But you will be unable to use your right hand to set manual focusing zoom. When I tried, I often accidentally changed the W/B or ISO
    Peter Werner
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Hi Diane, yes - this is purely a request for a firmware update to the G1 (and I hope will be taken forward to a subsequent update of the GH1)...

    Here's the original discussion we had on this.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Senior Member Per Ofverbeck's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    Brian,

    Out of curiosity--would this be possible through G1 firmware upgrade? I know I will not upgrade to a G1H in the near future--likely will wait down the road for an upgrade in the future. I can live with it 'as is' of course, but a one button choice would be really nice. If it will only be on the newer versions, then I'll just wait. I've gotten pretty fast with it.
    ...
    Donīt know if I misunderstand the whole thing, but is the G1H any different in this respect from the G1?

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Hi Per, we won't know for sure until one of us gets to use the GH1... but I would think that Panasonic will keep the G1 & G1H roughly in step, firmware feature wise.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: One Button Focus Assist

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    So as not to clash with the Film Mode button in normal circumstances but using it for this purpose it would be only activated when one turns the left focus dial to "Manual", much the same as on many cameras doubling-up switches depending on whether the camera is in shooting mode or review mode.
    Excellent idea
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

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    Re: 21mm/2.8 Avenon Super-Wide on the G1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Hi Per, we won't know for sure until one of us gets to use the GH1... but I would think that Panasonic will keep the G1 & G1H roughly in step, firmware feature wise.

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    That would seem reasonable. So--one can assume if this is possible with firmware, it should be backwards compatible.

    I haven't found the answer to this one (perhaps not searching correctly) but--if this is a one button solution--I still wonder how moving the focus area around will work--simply by moving it with 4 way buttons? The only reason I like the way that part is implemented now is--that its sometimes quicker and easier--for me--- to move the focus area to exactly where I want it in the full image than trying to move it afterwards over the whole image.

    Diane

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