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Thread: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

  1. #51
    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Test patterns, whether downloaded or homemade, don't furnish any useful information unless you're seeking a lens specifically for photographing flat, two-dimensional objects oriented parallel to the image plane at a fairly close distance.
    IMHO there are good lens tests that are helpful for users. I know Sean Reid is not liked by everyone here and I hope I shall not start a flame war. Nevertheless, I think his (pay) review site is a good example. Although I do not always agree with his conclusions, his numerous shots taken under different conditions help me in judging what is important for me.

    Again, he is doing this professionally and asks to be paid to enter his site. I do not think the users of this site could devote the necessary time and effort for such an approach, as desirable as it may be.
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

  2. #52
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Well, I know I barely have the time to maintain a database at all, let alone one that has a ton more information. The original idea was to track whether a given lens needed machining, and whether it covered the sensor. That would at least make it somewhat easier for people to avoid lenses that require machining, or avoid lenses that don't cover the sensor (although personally neither of these are limiting factors for me, I know they may be limiting factors for others.)

    As far as lens performance, that is an entirely different can o' worms.

    As an aside, I'm not closing the chapter on cine lenses. There is more research that needs to be done, I'm quite sure there are some extremely nice, sharp, fast, ergonomically excellent cine lenses that can fill the hole, until Panasonic finally delivers the 20/1.7 and the 7-14. And even after those lenses are available, there still may be some cine lenses that offer something that none of the Pana lenses do (more speed, price, character, bokeh, etc.)

    One such lens is the 25/1.9 Xenoplan which from two different sources is reported to be extremely sharp and offer full coverage and doesn't require machining. Others include the superfast f/0.95; surely Panasonic is not going to offer something close to that.

    One more note: when the GH1 comes out, cine zooms will go through this same process. The 14-140 lens is quite slow.
    Last edited by monza; 12th March 2009 at 10:25.

  3. #53
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    How about this for a reference:

    Kern Switar 10/1.6; 16:9 ratio. Wide open on top and stopped down to f/16 on bottom. Even though the 10 stops down to f/22 I think I should keep it at f/16 for almost all lenses I have. I'll check at 4:3 and 3:2, but most of the wides perform best at 16:9, so that is where I will do these tests, and I'll note otherwise.

  4. #54
    milapse
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by wjlapier View Post
    Kern Switar 10/1.6; 16:9 ratio.
    That's a typical 'standard 16mm' lens with a image circle of 14mm

    This is great information IMHO! keep it coming. I'll add mine as well.
    Last edited by milapse; 12th March 2009 at 11:57.

  5. #55
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    I get 16mm effective, too...figuring 19% crop on each end, leaving 62% in the center.

  6. #56
    milapse
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Here is the Schneider Cinegon 10mm F1.8
    Image circle 14mm (standard 16)

  7. #57
    Member LizaWitz's Avatar
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    A wall with some speckling on it is a good test pattern, just get the lens close enough to see the pattern and I think you'll kill multiple birds with one shot.

  8. #58
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Hi everyone,

    I am brand new here on this forum, so let me begin with a compliment on great work you doing in regards to G1 and C-mount lenses. Much Respect

    Now, let me bring up my 2 cents. Ive tried a good dozen on C-mount lenses on G1 and here is my premature conclusion.

    I dont see a point to use anything less than 25mm as it wont cover the sensor and cropping proved not getting any wider results that that of a 25mm lens. There might be exceptions that I dont know of.

    I do like results I saw from 75mm lenses and beyond, but long lenses are not ergonomically pretty and not bright enough. 100mm f2.8 would be as long as I would go. but its just me.

    So, my opinion, there is room for bright 25 to 100mm c-mount lenses on G1. By bright I mean 0.95 to 2.8. Maybe f4 if you really like the lens

    I dont have any formal benchmarking that Im using for lens testing, but from my visual observations on my NEC-2070NX monitor, I liked some lenses better than others go figure...

    I was able to pick 7 lenses that struck me the most as being the best. I will try to come up with some sort of test items and post some samples after the weekend is over, maybe on Tuesday. Hopefully weather will be sunny for outdoor shots.

    Hint... there will be 4 Kerns, 2 Angenieux, 1 Cooke. I didnt like some CCTV lenses I tried, they tend to have small resolution. Dont wanna mention any brands not to upset any one.

    Regards, keep up the good work.

  9. #59
    emory
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    This is a fascinating thread, and I can't wait for the GH-1 to arrive so I can try shooting video with my two old C-mount lenses.

    - Elgeet 13mm 1.5 (has anyone tried this one on the G-1?)

    - Lytar 25mm 1.9

    Although the Lytar is in pristine condition, its focussing ring is rather stiff, getting progressively stiffer as it's turned toward infinity. Probably dried-out grease.

    There are three small screws at the base of the mount and one screw on the ring on which the depth of field scale is printed. Has anyone had any experience getting the focussing ring off to clean and lubricate the (hopefully not helical) focussing threads? I'm a bit reluctant to remove the srews. I've tried (very cautiously) to let some lighter fluid seep in between the rings, but with no real success.

    I've tried googling this -- again without success.

    Does anyone have any pointers or perhaps a link that might be of help?

    Thanks.

    emory

  10. #60
    milapse
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by emory View Post
    - Elgeet 13mm 1.5 (has anyone tried this one on the G-1?)
    Still no info on that one... I'm guessing it will fit without modification looking at the design and I'd bet it's around 15mm IC

  11. #61
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    As far as I know, the Elgeet provides a circular image.

    With regards to the Lytar, the focus ring is so close to the c-mount adapter when mounted, it is very difficult to focus...I found it to be essentially unusable. A stiff focus ring would make it even worse...

  12. #62
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Can anyone advise on the usefulness of this lens

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CARL-ZEISS-25m...3A1|240%3A1318

  13. #63
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    The Tevidon is a nice fast lens, 16:9 coverage, vignettes in 4:3 format. There are posts in this forum using this lens.

  14. #64
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Egleet 13mm fits with no problem. The problem is it doesnt cover the frame.

    I have tried Angenieux 75mm f2.5 today and really liked it. It produces wonderful images and cover the sensor completely at all ratios. It also produces nice bokeh. Another thing I like about that lens is that it has a min focusing distance of appr 95mm which is pretty. Kern macro 75mm lens focuses down to 65mm, but it cost like $600.

    I will try to post some samples soon.

  15. #65
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    In my Previous Post when I talked about min focusing distance I did mean cm not mm of course.

    Here is some shots I took with Angenieux 75mm f2.5

  16. #66
    emory
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    With regards to the Lytar, the focus ring is so close to the c-mount adapter when mounted, it is very difficult to focus...I found it to be essentially unusable. A stiff focus ring would make it even worse...
    Which c-mount adapter do you use? Which can you recommend that would perhaps allow for better clearance and rotating the lens so that the focussing scale is always up?

  17. #67
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by emory View Post
    Which c-mount adapter do you use? Which can you recommend that would perhaps allow for better clearance and rotating the lens so that the focussing scale is always up?
    I don't have the Lytar anymore so I can't look at the lens (I sent it back due to the lens being fogged) but many of the cine lenses have c-mounts that can be rotated. Those lenses that don't have this, can be used with the MS Optical adapter which is designed specifically to allow lens rotation so the focus scale is up.

    I tried the Lytar on the Hawk adapter and the MS Optical adapter...the focus ring is essentially recessed into the adapter. Very difficult to get a grip.

  18. #68
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Photomorgana View Post
    In my Previous Post when I talked about min focusing distance I did mean cm not mm of course.

    Here is some shots I took with Angenieux 75mm f2.5
    The Angenieux looks very good! How does it handle on the G1, is it heavy?

  19. #69
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The Angenieux looks very good! How does it handle on the G1, is it heavy?
    It handles like a dream
    Its just a bit heavier that summicron 40mm, so my guess will be around 150 gr.
    The focusing ring is far away from adapter, so no problem there.

    Overall I like the results. Its kinda looks like my Angenieux 135mm f2.5 in Exakta mount, same image characteristics. DR is good too, auto contrast in pp and image is done, plus you can add some sharpening, but the files are nice. Those were shot in low lighting conditions, and some were set to ISO800. Its a keeper. I was a few on Ebay for under 300 is a good deal.

  20. #70
    emory
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I tried the Lytar on the Hawk adapter and the MS Optical adapter...the focus ring is essentially recessed into the adapter. Very difficult to get a grip.
    Thanks, Monza. I have a 3" focussing lever for the Lytar that clamps around the focus ring (a necessity with the Bolex, especially with other lenses on the turret), but I suppose it wouldn't clear the recessed G-1 adapters either. A real shame, because the 16mm films I shot with the Lytar in High School 40 years ago were quite sharp, even when projected on a very large screen.

    Thanks again for your help.

    emory

  21. #71
    emory
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    Wide Angle Cine Lenses for Video with GH-1?

    Quote Originally Posted by milapse View Post
    Greetings all (first post here..)

    I'm here to help with the lens data base. Here's my current collection (I'll update the info as I gather it, some will be repeats):

    Schneider 10mm/F1.8 (very sharp)
    machining: no
    coverage: no

    Cosmicar 12.5/F1.4
    machining: yes
    coverage: no

    Schneider 16mm/F1.4 (on it's way)
    machining: I don't think so
    coverage: 18mm (so I've read)

    Angenieux 25mm/F0.95
    machining:no
    coverage: almost 16:9

    Soligor 25mm/F0.95
    machining:no
    coverage: almost 16:9

    Schneider 50mm/F2 (crazy sharp)
    machining:no
    coverage: yes

    I think we should try to pin down the image circle on these lenses because I do find the non coverage lenses 'useful' albeit I'm coming at this from a timelapse/cinematic perspective (and thinking ahead to the GH1) for the following purposes (using peters 25/1.5 example):
    This is how I've used the Schneider 10/1.8 with awesome results


    This is how I see the GH1 with c-mounts being very interesting for 720p production...
    I think milapse has raised an interesting point here.

    Let's face it:

    - Lenses for 16mm movie cameras were designed to cover the 16mm movie format, not the 4/3 format.

    - The image circle of many cine lenses (particularly wide angles) is too small for the 4/3 format. Results: Vignetting, smearing, etc.

    BUT:

    If we were to CROP the image as in milapse's 720p example and utilize not the full resolution (4000 x 3000) of the sensor, but just the 1280 x 720 required for video, could we obtain a full wide angle video image (albeit with lower resolution)?

    This might be a premature question because the GH-1 was just announced. And it might also be a downright stupid question. But I hope there's some food for thought here. Shooting true wide angle videos with, say, a 10mm Switar would be fantastic, wouldn't it? -- or maybe too good to be true.

    Any ideas from the experts?

  22. #72
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    A mundane question: which c-mount to micro 4/3 adapters are people using?

  23. #73
    milapse
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    Re: Wide Angle Cine Lenses for Video with GH-1?

    Quote Originally Posted by emory View Post
    If we were to CROP the image as in milapse's 720p example and utilize not the full resolution (4000 x 3000) of the sensor, but just the 1280 x 720 required for video, could we obtain a full wide angle video image (albeit with lower resolution)?
    FYI - For photographic purposes the minimum image circle you'll see from a 16mm film lens will be ~14mm this equates to just under 6 MP (3000x2000) on a 4/3. As sharp as these lenses can be (remember pro 16mm lenses were designed to resolve higher than 35mm lenses!) the lost pixels are completely negated by the quality of the lens.

    Quote Originally Posted by emory View Post
    This might be a premature question because the GH-1 was just announced. And it might also be a downright stupid question. But I hope there's some food for thought here. Shooting true wide angle videos with, say, a 10mm Switar would be fantastic, wouldn't it? -- or maybe too good to be true.
    Yep, we shall see... That's what I anticipate though. *crosses fingers*

  24. #74
    milapse
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    A mundane question: which c-mount to micro 4/3 adapters are people using?
    At the moment Wolfgang Rabe (German) is making one and a fellow out of Taiwan who goes by 'hawkpeng'. More are arriving on the market as I type. Check feebay

  25. #75
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Is Rabe selling his adapter separately or only with lenses?

    The other three are Hawk's and MS Optical and jinfinance (ebay). The MS Optical has a feature whereby the lens can be rotated so the focus scale is up, very nifty.

  26. #76
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by Photomorgana View Post
    It handles like a dream
    Its just a bit heavier that summicron 40mm, so my guess will be around 150 gr.
    The focusing ring is far away from adapter, so no problem there.
    I got one of the 75/2.5s in the mail today. It's a great lens! Very small, light, perfect fit for the G1. I'll take a photo of it on the camera.

    EDIT: This does a good enough job indicating relative size.

    Last edited by monza; 16th March 2009 at 10:59.

  27. #77
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Angenieux 75mm is a beauty... it does sit well on the G1.

  28. #78
    milapse
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    I've made a chart to help understand the relationship between the 'standard 16', 'super 16 and 4/3" sizes. Then overlaid image circles between 14mm and 22mm. This will help lens testers to determine where their lens falls in the image circle category:

  29. #79
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    That is very helpful, I'll link it in the database.

  30. #80
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    I have just tested Kern Macro Switar 75mm f1.9
    Resolution is very good. Covers frame. No machining needed. Focus to infinity.

  31. #81
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by milapse View Post
    I've made a chart to help understand the relationship between the 'standard 16', 'super 16 and 4/3" sizes. Then overlaid image circles between 14mm and 22mm. This will help lens testers to determine where their lens falls in the image circle category:
    This chart is not quite correct as far as sizes and proportions of formats are concerned.

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...QQ-HJwvNDobeEw

    Super 16 frame is actually shorter than regular 16 (7.41mm to 7.49 mm) yet wider (12.52 to 10.26mm). Super 16 is also smaller than 1 inch tube 'sensor" size :7.41x12.52 and 9.6x12.8mm respectively. The diagonals and hence minimum acceptable quality image circle coverage diameters ("acceptable" parameters are usually determined by lens manufacturer ) are:
    16- 12.7mm
    S16- 14.55mm
    1 inch-16mm
    4/3- 21.63mm (from standard)
    Last edited by nugat; 26th January 2014 at 23:09.

  32. #82
    RandySmith
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    Re: G1, B+W, Cine Lenses, & 1 Color Pic

    Quote Originally Posted by milapse View Post
    Still no info on that one... I'm guessing it will fit without modification looking at the design and I'd bet it's around 15mm IC
    For the Elgeet 13mm f1.5, I have one for sale on eBay and it produces almost full circle vignette. pretty sharp lens, Large and pretty heavy. I just placed some images on photobucket, I also have other images from various c mount lenses using my Panasonic G1. url for 13mm: http://s478.photobucket.com/albums/r...0%20c%20mount/

    Lots of other albums on my photobucket site. http://s478.photobucket.com/home/Ran...hoto/allalbums

    Randy

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