GX8 shutter shock

[Jorgen Udvang]

I'm starting a separate thread for the GX8 shutter shock problem to avoid spamming the image thread. Short background:

When returning from Myanmar a couple of weeks ago, I found that a large portion of the photos that I had taken with the GX8/35-100mm f/2.8 combo were slightly blurry, or as I thought of it then; the lacked "definition". I thought it was the lens first, and actually put it up for sale, since I considered the shutter shock issue solved by the automatic e-shutter workaround.

However, since other members, Louis in particular, suggested that the lens should be excellent, I thought more about it, and after studying hundreds of photos, I found that the affected photos were mostly between 1/100 and 1/320s shutter speed. Then I went back to some photos I took of a young woman back in September were I had a similar, but not identical, issue, and found that the photos taken then, with the Zuiko 75mm, were also around those shutter speeds.

1. The photos taken with the Zuiko, which relies fully on IBIS, have a different "look" to the blur, and includes "double lines". The photos taken with the Panasonic are just slightly blurry, only lacking definition in some cases.

2. Some of the Zuiko images are sharp, so the auto e-shutter apparently kicks in sometimes, but not always, even at identical shutter speeds.

Below, I show two 100% crops from photos taken with the Zuiko. I use those, since they are taken with 5 seconds between them of an identical subject. They are taken at ISO 200, f/2.2 and shutter speed 1/160s.

Comments? Suggestions?

Edit:
There are umpteen threads on different forums about this, most of them including images that are supposed to prove that shutter shock doesn't exist. All of those I've seen used a tripod mounted camera to prove the point. However, this seems to be a random problem and using a sturdy tripod will most likely make the problem smaller or go away completely. The above shots are taken handheld with IBIS activated.

 

[Knorp]

Well, my first impression is that the second crop has a slight horizontal movement to it, vertically it seems fine. Does this match with the shutter shock issue, Jørgen ?

Nb I have to admit I'm a lousy tele lens shooter as my shutter speeds are most of the time too slow. For static objects that's no problem as OIS or IBIS helps me out, but for moving objects ...

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Well, my first impression is that the second crop has a slight horizontal movement to it, vertically it seems fine. Does this match with the shutter shock issue, Jørgen ?

Nb I have to admit I'm a lousy tele lens shooter as my shutter speeds are most of the time too slow. For static objects that's no problem as OIS or IBIS helps me out, but for moving objects ...

I'm not sure exactly how the shutter moves. The blades are horisontal, but when I look at it moving, the movement seems to be more diagonal.

I am btw. a very steady tele shooter, and have no problems shooting telephoto lenses at shutter speeds below the focal length if I'm standing steady, which I was in this case. I talked with another (former) GX8 user locally, and he told me that he had the same problem with the 42.5mm f/1.2, also when using dual IS.

Here's one with the 35-100mm f/2.8 @ 45mm, f/5 and 1/160s:

 

[biglouis]

Having defended the 35-100/2.8 the only thing I will say is that perhaps my expertise is in doubt because I can't see a problem with the 'eye' photos above. Both would be acceptable to me.

Of course the other 35-100 photo shows obvious lack of focus.

I came back to m43rds straight from shooting with the Sony A7R and A7S for about 18 months. I mention this because I feel I can tell the difference between frames shot with a sensors with and without an AA filter - which we all know introduces a certain level of softness.

I have always attributed the slight softness I see in frames shot with my GX8 to the AA filter. By contrast, I immediately saw an improvement in sharpness and noise reduction when I had the GX85 - which I sold when I got the GH5, which is also sharper and less noisy. I'm now beginning to wonder if the softness is exaggerated by 'shutter shock' because many pundits claim there is little or no difference between the 20mpx sensor in the GX8 and the GH5?

All I can state is that so far I have now created three commercial books using the combination of the GX8 and 7-14/Pro or 12-35 and occasionally 35-100. No editor has rejected my photography as being 'too soft' and on the page, admitedly just less than A4 size on a full page, the photos look fantastic. In fact for my latest book, I had the choice of using the GH5 and I was still shooting with the GX8 because it is light and I just like the feel of it - and it looks less intrusive in an urban environment.

For bird photography, where I am cropping severely and I need shutter speeds of 1/2000 optimally I use the GH5, especially because of its 255-point AF.

I don't know if any of this helps but I am still very happy for my work with the GX8 and 35-100.

Here is one example where I needed the 35-100. This is a distinctive water collector on Brick Lane in London where there is some debate about its significance (I photographed this for a piece in my latest book 'Secret Whitechapel'). Looking at LR all I did with the RAW photo was crop it - it came out of the camera ready to use - so I exported it to a full sized jpeg ready for use in the book.

You can click through to the full sized jpeg (6mb file). I think it is sharp. The only thing I can't say for sure is if I used the electronic or mechanical shutter. I'm going to err on the side of caution and say I probably used the electronic. As it is static there wouldn't have been an issue with rolling shutter.

Bottom line: maybe I am fooling myself but my 'go-to' solution for detail is 35-100 and in extremis I always have the 100-400 which I have also used a couple of times for statues and to really compress landscape details.

iso400 100m f8 1/200 GX8 35-100/2.8

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Louis, the GX8 delivers fantastic results when this problem doesn't appear. It's a great camera, and I didn't have any problems until recently, but that may be a coincidence or due to the fact that I didn't use it much with long lenses before.

Focus was never a problem, and it still isn't. In the photo below, the same as the one taken with the 35-100mm above, I've drawn a ring around an area with double lines in the fishnet. You can also see a double line in one strand of the girl's lower eyelash, a strand that stands out because it seems to be thicker than the others.

What puzzles me is that this seems to happen on random basis. One would believe that using the auto e-shutter option would mean that all photos taken at certain shutter speeds would trigger the e-shutter, but it doesn't. Photos taken at the same shutter speed of the same or similar object with only seconds between them look totally different.

One of the problems that I have with this, except for the fact that the images lack definition, is that I sell stock photos. The stock agencies don't accept photos with these imperfections, and it's rather annoying to get back from a relatively remote part of Myanmar with hundreds of photos that can't really be used for anything.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Here's one taken about a minute earlier, but a couple of metres further out where there was sun, at 60mm, f/5 and 1/1600s and everything is sharp. It would be hard to miss focus on these photos, since the aperture is down to f/5 and the distance to the subject is several metres.

 

[4711]

If we want to find out the reason for your problem, we have to analyse each potential driver step by step. Otherwise this becomes a very long thread with no results

There could be 3 different reasons for your problem:

1. Shutter shock issue
2. Issues with the lens
3. Problems with IBIS

We have to check each of those 3 areas one after the other to be sure to find the real reason.

Can someone explain to me what the status quo of the shutter shock issue is at the moment. With those cameras with which it happened, in which circumstances thid this occur (which settings in the camera like shutterspeed, ibis, program mode etc) and how exactly did you see it in the image?

Thanks for this thread. I do think this is really helping many people.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

If we want to find out the reason for your problem, we have to analyse each potential driver step by step. Otherwise this becomes a very long thread with no results

There could be 3 different reasons for your problem:

1. Shutter shock issue
2. Issues with the lens
3. Problems with IBIS

We have to check each of those 3 areas one after the other to be sure to find the real reason.

Can someone explain to me what the status quo of the shutter shock issue is at the moment. With those cameras with which it happened, in which circumstances thid this occur (which settings in the camera like shutterspeed, ibis, program mode etc) and how exactly did you see it in the image?

Thanks for this thread. I do think this is really helping many people.

I don't think there's a problem with the lens, and IBIS seems to work fine under normal circumstances, like at very slow shutter speeds. However, I suspect that IBIS, and dual IS, can sometimes contribute to the problem while trying to correct it. I've noticed that the double lines are more distinct with the 75mm lens that relies on IBIS only, while there's sometimes, but not always, a more subtle blur when using the 35-100mm that offers dual IS. I will however have to do some shots with IS completely switched off to make any conclusions about that. I'll see if I have that, and if I don't, I'll do some test shots the coming weekend.

 

[biglouis]

Louis, the GX8 delivers fantastic results when this problem doesn't appear. It's a great camera, and I didn't have any problems until recently, but that may be a coincidence or due to the fact that I didn't use it much with long lenses before.

Focus was never a problem, and it still isn't. In the photo below, the same as the one taken with the 35-100mm above, I've drawn a ring around an area with double lines in the fishnet. You can also see a double line in one strand of the girl's lower eyelash, a strand that stands out because it seems to be thicker than the others.

What puzzles me is that this seems to happen on random basis. One would believe that using the auto e-shutter option would mean that all photos taken at certain shutter speeds would trigger the e-shutter, but it doesn't. Photos taken at the same shutter speed of the same or similar object with only seconds between them look totally different.

One of the problems that I have with this, except for the fact that the images lack definition, is that I sell stock photos. The stock agencies don't accept photos with these imperfections, and it's rather annoying to get back from a relatively remote part of Myanmar with hundreds of photos that can't really be used for anything.

I completely understand, Jorgen and I sympathise with your frustration. I sell some of my photos through Alamy and I'm pretty certain all but a tiny fraction are from my GX8. I hope we can get to the bottom of your concerns with the lens because I think it is worth trying to keep it. In the end, though, as you well know, you have to be 100% confident about your kit and sometimes I have dumped stuff for exactly the reasons that trouble you.

LouisB

 

[bensonga]

It seems pretty clear from your examples Jorgen that shutter shock can be a problem in some instances with the GX8. I guess I've been lucky thus far to not be shooting the kinds of subjects where it is so apparent under certain conditions. The GX8 is one of my favorite cameras. A pair of GX8s, mounted with the 12-35/2.8 and 35-100/2.8 is my standard travel kit. Fortunately, probably 80% of my photos using that kit are taken with the 12-35 lens. The photos I really care about viewing are made into medium sized prints, which are more forgiving of some faults than when digital image files at viewed at 100%.

I hope that when Panasonic releases a GX9 (hopefully with the same form factor as the GX8 body), this problem will be solved.

Gary

 

[Vivek]

It is just a too low end camera to pair with a “pro” lens. Get the newest Pana G.

 

[bensonga]

It is just a too low end camera to pair with a “pro” lens. Get the newest Pana G.

The G9 looks very good, but for travel I prefer the compact rangefinder style form factor of the GX8 body with the tilting EVF. The photos I've taken with the GX8 while traveling (including at the Rolex Monterey Motorsports Reunion in 2016) have met my needs thus far.

Gary

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

It is just a too low end camera to pair with a “pro” lens. Get the newest Pana G.

Just what I need, advice on how to spend more money :ROTFL:

I did actually go to the ongoing Bangkok Photo Fair yesterday to have a look at the Panasonic G9, but guess what: It wasn't there. Note even a single demo unit. That's Panasonic Thailand

As revenge, I went to try out the beautiful, little Nikon D7500, but as good as that camera is, the lenses can't compete with my current m4/3 setup.

 

[Vivek]

Glad to help! :angel:

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Update

Auto e-shutter doesn't work with all lenses. In aperture priority mode, I've found it to work from 1/100-1/320s with the following lenses:

Pana 12-35mm f/2.8,Model I
Pana 35-100mm f/4-5.6

and not work with:

Pana 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6, Model II
Zuiko 75mm f/1.8
Pana 35-100mm f/2.8, Model I (assumed, I don't have the lens here for confirmation)

Why it doesn't work for all lenses, I have no idea. I might need to climb Mout Fuji to seek clarity on this.

In shutter priority mode, I've only tested with one lens, the 12-35mm f/2.8. What happens is that once I've switched the camera on, it works for the shutter speed that I've dialed in, but once I change speed, staying within the affected range, it stops working.

Since it's a long weekend here, I was going to investigate further, but someone/something has screwed up my Mac and I have to travel on business most of the holiday anyway. I think I'll bring the Olympus OM-3 and a bunch of HP5.

 

[Vivek]

Jorgen, Switch to a ff Sony. You can throw any lens at them and EFCS, ES (where available) etc all will work.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Jorgen, Switch to a ff Sony. You can throw any lens at them and EFCS, ES (where available) etc all will work.

In that case A9 would be my recommendation. :thumbup:
Otherwise the E-M1 Mark II. :thumbs:

 

[Vivek]

Yeah, might as well go for the best!

 

[4711]

Jorgen, Switch to a ff Sony. You can throw any lens at them and EFCS, ES (where available) etc all will work.

???

There is a reason why he decided for MFT as one of his systems. Just because this specific body has trouble in specific circumstances does not mean the whole MFT system is garbage.

I do not see any advantage of a Sony camera outside of this specific issue, if he did not need all the other features of the Sony cameras in the past.

So why should he switch to another system and not simply take another MFT body?

A Lumix G9 or GX85 would make a lot more sense.

 

[4711]

Yeah, might as well go for the best!

So who decides what is the best? The best for him might be something totally different than the best for you.

It all depends on your individual needs. I could argue also Medium Format is the best. So why do we not all shoot Medium Format only?