How goos do you find m43 IQ today?

[Knorp]

Well Bart thanks, please enlighten me, what are the drawbacks?

It’s said foremost noise and to lesser extend cost.

 

[k-hawinkler]

It’s said foremost noise and to lesser extend cost.

Thanks Bart. How does noise enter into this?

 

[Knorp]

Thanks Bart. How does noise enter into this?

Pfff - I had hoped you could shed some light on those supposed drawbacks, K-H ... :grin:

 

[k-hawinkler]

Pfff - I had hoped you could shed some light on those supposed drawbacks, K-H ... :grin:

Well Bart, here is an article that discusses Rolling Shutter versus Global Shutter.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/video/tips-and-solutions/rolling-shutter-versus-global-shutter

Quote:
"What is rolling shutter? For those who are not familiar, “rolling shutter” is a technical term referring to the way the image sensor scans the image. If the sensor employs a rolling shutter, this means the image is scanned sequentially, from one side of the sensor (usually the top) to the other, line by line. Many CMOS sensors use rolling shutters. In contrast to that, “global shutter” is the technical term referring to sensors that scan the entire area of the image simultaneously. The vast majority of CCD sensors employ global shutter scanning. The overwhelming prevalence of CMOS sensors in modern cameras explains the increasing appearance of rolling shutter artifacts in videos and films made recently."

"Rolling shutter is not inherent to CMOS sensors. While it may seem like all CMOS sensors have rolling shutter, that is certainly not the case. The Sony PMW-F55, Blackmagic Design Production Camera 4K, URSA 4K, and URSA Mini 4K, as well as the AJA CION, all use CMOS sensors with global shutter circuitry."

"Generally speaking, if you were to compare two equivalent sensors strictly on performance, one with a global shutter and the other with a rolling shutter, you will likely see that the rolling-shutter sensor will have less noise and a wider dynamic range while generating less heat.

Now, a global-shutter sensor can be developed to compensate for those aspects, but the costs of developing and manufacturing a sensor with those capabilities will be dramatically higher."

Based on my experience with the Sony A9, sensor readout time of about 1/150 s or 1/160 s, I trust the industry will pursue a global shutter for our cameras as the required technology becomes economically available. Please recall, a mechanical shutter takes about 1/300 s to cover the entire sensor. The E-M1.1, E-M1.2, A7r, A7r.2, A7r.3 all have a sensor readout time between 1/20 s to 1/60 s. So it seems the A9 is already half-way there to practically eliminate electronic rolling shutter artifacts .

So what is needed is circuitry that switches the CMOS sensor in its entirety on and off everywhere at the same time. Then the sensels can be read out subsequently at a speed supported by the latest process and fab technology.

I believe global shutters will be come available when economically feasible, hopefully in the not so distant future. I definitely think the Sony A9 has shown the way and hope its characteristic features will also show up in the cameras of other companies.

 

[iiiNelson]

Thanks Bart. A global electronic shutter (or close to it) would convince me to add another m43 camera to my collection - be it from Olympus or Panasonic. Panasonic seems to have a global shutter in their sights. Hopefully Olympus does as well. When? Whenever...

My guess would be that Panasonic would put their global shutter in the VariCam line first and it would probably trickle down to the GH line afterwards. I just don’t see global shutters being cost effective for another 3-5 years or so but perhaps there will be more stacked sensors like the A9 has in other lower end cameras in the near future.

 

[k-hawinkler]

My guess would be that Panasonic would put their global shutter in the VariCam line first and it would probably trickle down to the GH line afterwards. I just don’t see global shutters being cost effective for another 3-5 years or so but perhaps there will be more stacked sensors like the A9 has in other lower end cameras in the near future.

Thanks Tre. You may be right.
An A9-like sensor readout time or slightly better eliminates most rolling shutter distortions, is quiet and blackout free.
Olympus should be able to offer that in their next top of the line camera.
I certainly hope so.

 

[Paratom]

whats the problem with the mechical shutter of the EM1II? It is fast, quiet and no problem with vibration.

 

[k-hawinkler]

whats the problem with the mechical shutter of the EM1II? It is fast, quiet and no problem with vibration.

As compared to the electronic shutter not quiet and lower frame rate.

 

[iiiNelson]

Thanks Tre. You may be right.An A9-like sensor readout time or slightly better eliminates most rolling shutter distortions, is quiet and blackout free.Olympus should be able to offer that in their next top of the line camera.I certainly hope so.

Yeah. Me too. I could be completely wrong but with Canon rolling out their C700, Sony doing their Venice, RED rolling out and consolidating their updated line, and Panasonic getting the EVA1 update out a couple months ago I’d expect them to put out a new flagship next otherwise the EVA will possibly cannibalize some sales of their higher end models.

 

[Knorp]

"Generally speaking, if you were to compare two equivalent sensors strictly on performance, one with a global shutter and the other with a rolling shutter, you will likely see that the rolling-shutter sensor will have less noise and a wider dynamic range while generating less heat.

Now, a global-shutter sensor can be developed to compensate for those aspects, but the costs of developing and manufacturing a sensor with those capabilities will be dramatically higher."

Thanks K-H. But there you have it; noise, dynamic range, heat & costs.
Now it remains to be seen how much "dramatically higher" we're talking about here.

 

[Knorp]

Aside from that costly G.E.S.: what other feature or features could possibly justify the higher ranking ?

 

[k-hawinkler]

Thanks K-H. But there you have it; noise, dynamic range, heat & costs.
Now it remains to be seen how much "dramatically higher" we're talking about here.

Bart thanks, looking forward, I pay more attention to this quote:

"Now, a global-shutter sensor can be developed to compensate for those aspects, but the costs of developing and manufacturing a sensor with those capabilities will be dramatically higher."

 

[k-hawinkler]

Aside from that costly G.E.S.: what other feature or features could possibly justify the higher ranking ?

Great question, beats me. :facesmack:

 

[Knorp]

Great question, beats me. :facesmack:

:grin: In that case: let's hope for the best and stick to that G.E.S.

 

[k-hawinkler]

:grin: In that case: Let's hope for the best and stick to that g.e.s.

g.e.s.?

 

[Paratom]

As compared to the electronic shutter not quiet and lower frame rate.

mechanical shutter of the EM1-II can do 15 fms/sec and 1/8000 and while it is not totally quiet it is far from being loud. EM1II improved quite a bit in this regard over the previous model.
I respect your needs but for me this is a non issue.

 

[k-hawinkler]

mechanical shutter of the EM1-II can do 15 fms/sec and 1/8000 and while it is not totally quiet it is far from being loud. EM1II improved quite a bit in this regard over the previous model.
I respect your needs but for me this is a non issue.

Thanks. I prefer to use the quiet electronic shutter, except for Hummingbirds in Flight, as it produces there an unacceptably high rate of annoying and distracting rolling shutter distortions. And if one is within a few feet the noisy mechanical shutter of the E-M1.2 drives off the hummers. This is the reason I mainly use my Sony A9 for hummingbird shots, although the Olympus 300/4 PRO is certainly optically up to the task.

 

[Paratom]

Thanks. I prefer to use the quiet electronic shutter, except for Hummingbirds in Flight, as it produces there an unacceptably high rate of annoying and distracting rolling shutter distortions. And if one is within a few feet the noisy mechanical shutter of the E-M1.2 drives off the hummers. This is the reason I mainly use my Sony A9 for hummingbird shots, although the Olympus 300/4 PRO is certainly optically up to the task.

thats a good reason you need totally silent shutter.

 

[ptomsu]

Thanks. I prefer to use the quiet electronic shutter, except for Hummingbirds in Flight, as it produces there an unacceptably high rate of annoying and distracting rolling shutter distortions. And if one is within a few feet the noisy mechanical shutter of the E-M1.2 drives off the hummers. This is the reason I mainly use my Sony A9 for hummingbird shots, although the Olympus 300/4 PRO is certainly optically up to the task.

Rumors say that a totally new Olympus Flagship camera is coming - should be released early next year. And it is a model above the current EM1 series.

https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-major-omd-camera-announcement-in-early-2019/

So there is hope that they include this global shutter :clap:

 

[k-hawinkler]

Rumors say that a totally new Olympus Flagship camera is coming - should be released early next year. And it is a model above the current EM1 series.

https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-major-omd-camera-announcement-in-early-2019/

So there is hope that they include this global shutter :clap:

Thanks Peter. Or getting close to it to eliminate rolling shutter artifacts. :thumbs: