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Thread: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Have seen that -while I hope they succeed in delivering I have my doubts given the history Sigma had over the past years with Foveon sensors and cameras

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Have seen that -while I hope they succeed in delivering I have my doubts given the history Sigma had over the past years with Foveon sensors and cameras
    The big thing is whether they’ll work with the major RAW conversion developers so that the cameras work optimally with them. If not, the Foveon camera will remain a niche.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Olympus is officially reassuring that they will NOT go FF and see this as a big advantage for them!

    https://www.43rumors.com/olympus-re-...go-full-frame/

    I am pretty sure they are right ....

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Olympus is officially reassuring that they will NOT go FF and see this as a big advantage for them!

    https://www.43rumors.com/olympus-re-...go-full-frame/

    I am pretty sure they are right ....
    This explains their small market share for sure.

    Literally every camera maker be it Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Leica, Pentax, or Panasonic is offering system cameras with multiple sensor sizes now. Some are Mirrorless and some aren’t... even DSLR’s have continually shrunk in size over the last 5 years as a response to Mirrorless cameras (and mobile phones/action cameras/drones) largely cutting into their sales figures.

    As the saying goes - you can walk and chew gum simultaneously.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    I'm sure Olympus is doing the right thing. Those who leave m4/3 for full frame won't automatically choose a Panasonic or Olympus camera (if Olympus had launched one). Keeping several product lines alive is expensive, and although Olympus is a niche player, they seem to be rather comfortable with their niche. For me, there are no rational rasons to leave m4/3. Image quality is more than good enough, and there's no way getting around the fact that full frame lenses are larger.

    The absurd side of this is that while sensor quality is improving, many go towards larger sensors while the quality of 4/3 sensors is becoming better than full frame sensors were just a decade ago. M4/3 gives me the smallest interchangeable lens/cameras combinations available in the market, the best hybrid video camera and soon probably the best compact action camera system, all based around the same sensor size and lens mount. Lens choice is the only problem. There are so many alternatives that my brain runs around in circles unable to make a final choice

    Customers pay exactly the same amount of money for the photos that I take with m4/3 equipment as they do with images I took with the D810 and other full frame cameras. I understand that there are photographers within certain niches who need or want larger sensors, but for most people, sensor size has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of their images. That comes from the eye, the brain and from hours, weeks and years of practice.

    So we are left with marketing and perceived value. More and bigger is better, and the consumerist society dictates improvement through consumption rather than practice and learning. The ice on Greenland is apparently melting, but never mind. At least we'll get some great, noise free photos of the final iceberg leaving for the Atlantic.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    This explains their small market share for sure.

    Literally every camera maker be it Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Leica, Pentax, or Panasonic is offering system cameras with multiple sensor sizes now. Some are Mirrorless and some aren’t... even DSLR’s have continually shrunk in size over the last 5 years as a response to Mirrorless cameras (and mobile phones/action cameras/drones) largely cutting into their sales figures.

    As the saying goes - you can walk and chew gum simultaneously.
    Issue and matter of fact is - if you make the sensor larger, also all lenses are going to be larger. This is reality and based on physics and cannot be discussed away with whatever arguments

    What is impressive on the other side is how small mirrorless FF cameras can be built today, even including effective IBIS - Z6/Z7

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'm sure Olympus is doing the right thing. Those who leave m4/3 for full frame won't automatically choose a Panasonic or Olympus camera (if Olympus had launched one). Keeping several product lines alive is expensive, and although Olympus is a niche player, they seem to be rather comfortable with their niche. For me, there are no rational rasons to leave m4/3. Image quality is more than good enough, and there's no way getting around the fact that full frame lenses are larger.

    The absurd side of this is that while sensor quality is improving, many go towards larger sensors while the quality of 4/3 sensors is becoming better than full frame sensors were just a decade ago. M4/3 gives me the smallest interchangeable lens/cameras combinations available in the market, the best hybrid video camera and soon probably the best compact action camera system, all based around the same sensor size and lens mount. Lens choice is the only problem. There are so many alternatives that my brain runs around in circles unable to make a final choice

    Customers pay exactly the same amount of money for the photos that I take with m4/3 equipment as they do with images I took with the D810 and other full frame cameras. I understand that there are photographers within certain niches who need or want larger sensors, but for most people, sensor size has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of their images. That comes from the eye, the brain and from hours, weeks and years of practice.

    So we are left with marketing and perceived value. More and bigger is better, and the consumerist society dictates improvement through consumption rather than practice and learning. The ice on Greenland is apparently melting, but never mind. At least we'll get some great, noise free photos of the final iceberg leaving for the Atlantic.
    How true !!!!!!!!!!

    WRT lenses for m43 - easy choice IMHO, at least for me - Olympus PRO

    WRT FF need / want - I do not need one but I want one

    WRT what I most probably will do - stay m43 (EM1.2 and maybe EM1X) and if I find some money in some secret bank account I will add the one or other FF - but I guess that will rather not happen

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    It’s rumored that full specs may come at CES in January. Apparently Sony is supposed to have some surprises as well. We will see if any of it is true.

    https://www.l-rumors.com/l4-yes-full...ed-in-january/
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    How true !!!!!!!!!!

    WRT lenses for m43 - easy choice IMHO, at least for me - Olympus PRO

    WRT FF need / want - I do not need one but I want one

    WRT what I most probably will do - stay m43 (EM1.2 and maybe EM1X) and if I find some money in some secret bank account I will add the one or other FF - but I guess that will rather not happen
    The quality of the high end m4/3 lenses is amazing, optically as well as physically. I'm only buying second hand nowadays, the exception being the 100-300mm that I bought a year ago, and most of the lenses look like new even after many years of use. Buying pro grade lenses used is a much better investment than buying amateur lenses new, since the pro lenses are built to last and are easy to sell. I'm only buying and selling locally now, so I also get to see and try every lens before I make up my mind.

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Issue and matter of fact is - if you make the sensor larger, also all lenses are going to be larger. This is reality and based on physics and cannot be discussed away with whatever arguments

    What is impressive on the other side is how small mirrorless FF cameras can be built today, even including effective IBIS - Z6/Z7
    I don’t disagree with your points but was ONLY making a point that nearly everyone else has a small sensor option AND a large sensor option.

    Olympus does have their niche BUT there is clearly room to grow in market for peoplenthat want more than sensor shift composite imaging tech. They have a strength in lens design - even if they don’t develop their own system there’s room for them to design lenses for other systems to generate additional income.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Panasonic released the 2nd of the Lumix S videos today on YouTube. They don’t tell you much you probably didn’t already know but it’s nice to see they’re out in the “wild” being tested.

    https://youtu.be/jgBRb21l5PE

    They released this one last week in case you missed it.

    https://youtu.be/s3tfyfqh_nY
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Panasonic released the 2nd of the Lumix S videos today on YouTube. They don’t tell you much you probably didn’t already know but it’s nice to see they’re out in the “wild” being tested.

    https://youtu.be/jgBRb21l5PE

    They released this one last week in case you missed it.

    https://youtu.be/s3tfyfqh_nY
    Many thanks for these links - or should I better not THANK YOU

    Always as soon as I see such videos I become tempted again to get this gear. Called GAS ???? Maybe but I am really looking forward to what Panasonic will roll out over the next year.

    At least I have 4 options:

    1) stay with m43
    2) go 100% Fuji (X-T3 and later X-H2) - actually very tempting!
    3) go FF with Panasonic and L-mount
    4) go FF with Nikon Z-mount

    and actually there is the possibility to do any of the above combined, but most likely that would mean Olympus m43 and Panasonic FF.

    What's not to like about that?
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    I think Panasonic would be very very smart if they decided to make an apc and ff version using L mount - this woudl provide their customers with the same advantages that Sony and leica deliver to their customers - dual purposing of lenses across two chip formats.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I think Panasonic would be very very smart if they decided to make an apc and ff version using L mount - this woudl provide their customers with the same advantages that Sony and leica deliver to their customers - dual purposing of lenses across two chip formats.
    Or Nikon doing the same with Z-mount.

    Only question is if L and Z mounts are not too big for APS-C
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    If the m43 mount is not too big for its sensor then the Z mount is just fine for APS-C.

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Or Nikon doing the same with Z-mount.

    Only question is if L and Z mounts are not too big for APS-C
    I just 'discovered' that panasonic have stated they wont be making an L mount lens series for an apc camera....( which means Leica get to clip the ticket on Leica/panasonic lenses and Panasonic get to keep calling them that) - look slike Sigma will be the manufacturer that is free to make L mount alternatives for apc..

    Pete - the Leica TL and CL (apc) series use the L mount - same as SL (35mm) .....same as Sony situation they have 'cleverly' engineered. Smart startegy on the part of Sony and others are only recently start to catch up...
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Many thanks for these links - or should I better not THANK YOU

    Always as soon as I see such videos I become tempted again to get this gear. Called GAS ???? Maybe but I am really looking forward to what Panasonic will roll out over the next year.

    At least I have 4 options:

    1) stay with m43
    2) go 100% Fuji (X-T3 and later X-H2) - actually very tempting!
    3) go FF with Panasonic and L-mount
    4) go FF with Nikon Z-mount

    and actually there is the possibility to do any of the above combined, but most likely that would mean Olympus m43 and Panasonic FF.

    What's not to like about that?
    Yeah I look forward to their offering too. My biggest questions are CDAF performance and lens roadmap questions.

    Again... nothing wrong with GAS if it inspires you to get out there and shoot more frequently. Your existing camera is probably fine for most things already but I imagine a new camera is like upgrading to the newest iteration of the latest Porsche 911. It’ll have the potential to get you “there” a few seconds faster but was the “old one” really that bad? Probably not but you can’t put a price on the experience of being able to temporarily be more satisfied/having more peace of mind in the moment.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If the m43 mount is not too big for its sensor then the Z mount is just fine for APS-C.
    Did you notice the "wink" at the end of my sentence? It's mainly there because I couldn't find a "tongue in cheek" emoticon among the GetDPI standards.

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Panasonic released the 2nd of the Lumix S videos today on YouTube. They don’t tell you much you probably didn’t already know but it’s nice to see they’re out in the “wild” being tested.

    https://youtu.be/jgBRb21l5PE

    They released this one last week in case you missed it.

    https://youtu.be/s3tfyfqh_nY
    Being committed to the L mount thru my Leica SL kit ...I am very interested in the high MP alternative being shown by Panasonic . To have 40-50Mps with the Leica L lenses is my interest .

    These videos however don t do it for me . Nice to see the camera in use ..its real ... but the images presented just are not all that great to my eye . And i say that with a full understanding of the limitations of both the video and stage of development on the camera .

    Would seem that professional quality products deserve professional photographs .

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I just 'discovered' that panasonic have stated they wont be making an L mount lens series for an apc camera....( which means Leica get to clip the ticket on Leica/panasonic lenses and Panasonic get to keep calling them that) - look slike Sigma will be the manufacturer that is free to make L mount alternatives for apc..

    Pete - the Leica TL and CL (apc) series use the L mount - same as SL (35mm) .....same as Sony situation they have 'cleverly' engineered. Smart startegy on the part of Sony and others are only recently start to catch up...
    I’m really hoping Sigma works with the developers of the major RAW converters for processing purposes because I think the requirement to use their clunky software hurt them in the end. At the very least they should work to allow their software to natively export to Capture One/Lightroom/etc.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Being committed to the L mount thru my Leica SL kit ...I am very interested in the high MP alternative being shown by Panasonic . To have 40-50Mps with the Leica L lenses is my interest .

    These videos however don t do it for me . Nice to see the camera in use ..its real ... but the images presented just are not all that great to my eye . And i say that with a full understanding of the limitations of both the video and stage of development on the camera .

    Would seem that professional quality products deserve professional photographs .
    I tend to agree but we are 3-6 months away from release and there’s likely little to no RAW support optimization for now. Also I don’t know where the YouTube compression hurts to a point of being a hamper so there’s too many factors to “kill it” IMO at this point... but again I agree that it’s seemingly not all that impressive in DR and IQ yet (and I’d argue that simply adding an off camera flash would’ve done wonders for the work that was presented as the people appeared to render incredibly flat though I supposed that could be adjusted in PP too). Maybe there are more videos to come and maybe it’s in the hands of a wider range of photographers to show a more diverse collection of work. They mentioned the sync speed of the camera in the press release announcement so perhaps a portrait session would be appropriate and they constantly mention lowlight performance so I’d like to see some event/concert photography examples as well. These are the things that’ll make me gain confidence in a CDAF based system... well other than actually getting it in my hands.

    I have no doubt that it’ll get better but how much better is a real question. I expect them to let us know more in a few weeks at CES... at least I hope they do because it’s becoming a semi-forgotten camera in the minds of most people... though they seem to have gotten so much right in ergonomic design IMO. Hands down this is the best looking camera body (this side of the XH1 at least) for me personally and I’ve held them all to this point.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    I did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Did you notice the "wink" at the end of my sentence? It's mainly there because I couldn't find a "tongue in cheek" emoticon among the GetDPI standards.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Probably not but you can’t put a price on the experience of being able to temporarily be more satisfied/having more peace of mind in the moment.
    The price varies. It's usually the price of the new camera or lens or whatever GAS has induced you to purchase.

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    I guess this is somewhatvrelated to thebthread but I’m surprised they aren’t launching this in L-Mount too out the gate. There are Leica users that might purchase this and it would already be in the Wild when the Panasonic and Sigma Cameras come next year. In any case $1500 seems to be a more than fair price for this lens.

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Some more news on this cameras - for me especially interesting the high precision EVF close to human vision

    https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/pan...specs-roundup/

    at least this all sounds like photographers heaven

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Some more news on this cameras - for me especially interesting the high precision EVF close to human vision

    https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/pan...specs-roundup/

    at least this all sounds like photographers heaven
    Yeah. Still the biggest factors in the commercial success of this product (IMO of course) will be price and AF performance compared to the competition. Canon and Nikon are reportedly working on their pro versions now and no one seemingly knows what Sony is quietly doing. Perhaps we will see A9 variants and pro cropped sensor body/lenses soon. Also they’re working to further improve their already excellent Hybrid AF system. I hope Panasonic insistence on CDAF only isn’t a death sentence because almost everything else about this camera seems “perfect” to me.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Yeah. Still the biggest factors in the commercial success of this product (IMO of course) will be price and AF performance compared to the competition. Canon and Nikon are reportedly working on their pro versions now and no one seemingly knows what Sony is quietly doing. Perhaps we will see A9 variants and pro cropped sensor body/lenses soon. Also they’re working to further improve their already excellent Hybrid AF system. I hope Panasonic insistence on CDAF only isn’t a death sentence because almost everything else about this camera seems “perfect” to me.
    Panasonic DFD-CDAF is quite competitive with PDAF, but works only with Panasonic lenses. Lack of on-sensor PDAF may have its advantages. We’ll see how well it works.

    I still believe it is the lenses that are most important in a system, not bodies.

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Panasonic DFD-CDAF is quite competitive with PDAF, but works only with Panasonic lenses. Lack of on-sensor PDAF may have its advantages. We’ll see how well it works.

    I still believe it is the lenses that are most important in a system, not bodies.
    Well I understand HOW CDAF works but most Mirrorless Cameras use a hybrid system that incorporates BOTH PDAF and CDAF. My concern is performance in continuous AF modes and video tracking modes where Panasonic has developed a reputation for being behind the best of the competition (Sony and Canon currently). I’d still like to see them work on some sort of hybrid PDAF/CDAF based system for peace of mind but if the DFD2 doesn’t leave any performance on the table (particularly in lower light situations) then I’d be fine with it.
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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Preorders should open last week of January

    https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/pan...ek-of-january/

    And now the "fear" about pricing starts .....

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    Re: Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

    Panasonic is officially releasing details and pricing on the S1 and S1R on February 1st (it was originally scheduled for today I think). Pictures, specs and estimated pricing is already being leaked on various sites. I was hoping we would have an L-Mount forum on GetDPI by now to share info about these new cameras/lenses and other L-mount developments from Sigma and Leica.

    In the meantime, I was interested in a size comparison of the G9 and S1. Also the Leica SL and the Pana S1.

    https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-cam...s-panasonic-s1

    https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-cam...s-panasonic-s1

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    Last edited by bensonga; 31st January 2019 at 08:10.

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