Panasonic FF Mirrorless to be announced on September 25th

[Vivek]

Very good news! :thumbs:

 

[iiiNelson]

Very good news! :thumbs:

I agree Panasonic can put out some good quality lenses in a shorter period than Leica that has released a grand total of 6 lenses in 3 years. I will give Nikon credit for at least committing to 12 lenses by the end of 2020. As good as the Leica SL lenses are - are the any better than Otus lenses or significantly better than the better/best Zeiss, Nikon, Sony, Canon, Sigma, Fuji, etc. lenses?

No, they are not significantly better.

 

[iiiNelson]

Maybe this article from a little over a month ago is making a bit more sense now... perhaps.

https://www.43rumors.com/towerjazz-...neration-of-sensor-with-up-to-100-megapixels/

I still think Micro 4/3 will focus on 4K with maybe some increased readout times and/or higher frame rates and the FF camera can donthe medium to high end stuff. Also curious to see the lens lineup with the Olympics coming up in less than 2 years. I’d expect all of these new Mirrorless cameras to be working on telephoto lenses and bodies capable of shooting sports/action.

 

[iiiNelson]

Interesting if true, and a bit surprising:

https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-pa...nt-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/

What’ll surprise me is if Panasonic goes the unprecedented route and release the camera with 5+ lenses from day one with like three f/2.8 zooms between 14-200mm and a handful of primes in the 24, 50, and something between 85-105mm at f/2 or faster.Also would be interesting if this camera adopted a native panoramic FOV like a XPAN or movie camera that has a 2.4:1 aspect ratio.

 

[ptomsu]

Interesting details at least ...

It has a new Panasonic designed mount
The sensor is made by Panasonic and it’s not “borrowed” from current Sony FF sensors
The camera will start shipping out in March 2019
The camera is said to have high video quality


https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/th...-a-new-mount-and-a-panasonic-designed-sensor/

 

[k-hawinkler]

Global shutter? :shocked:

 

[Vivek]

Global shutter? :shocked:

Preorder links?

 

[Bugleone]

If Panny turned out to have a really progressive, imaginative and flexible design then it would be well placed to cut drastically into Canikon/Sony sales since their offerings are just DSLRWM (DSLR without mirror) designs.....

....Come on Panny you can do it!

 

[iiiNelson]

Interesting details at least ...

It has a new Panasonic designed mount
The sensor is made by Panasonic and it’s not “borrowed” from current Sony FF sensors
The camera will start shipping out in March 2019
The camera is said to have high video quality


https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/th...-a-new-mount-and-a-panasonic-designed-sensor/

The “Panasonic designed” and “not borrowed from CURRENT Sony sensors” terminology make me cautious about whether TowerJazz/Panasonic is actually producing and/or manufacturing the sensor.

Obviously there are Sony cameras that haven’t been announced and maybe some of them use sensors/sensor technology that aren’t currently in use. I freely admit that my career of being in analytical positions makes be read between most lines so I could be wrong/slightly pessimistic/slightly cynical but it’s something to think about to temper overexcitement too soon.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

The “Panasonic designed” and “not borrowed from CURRENT Sony sensors” terminology make me cautious about whether TowerJazz/Panasonic is actually producing and/or manufacturing the sensor.

Obviously there are Sony cameras that haven’t been announced and maybe some of them use sensors/sensor technology that aren’t currently in use. I freely admit that my career of being in analytical positions makes be read between most lines so I could be wrong/slightly pessimistic/slightly cynical but it’s something to think about to temper overexcitement too soon.

If it really is the Towerjazz sensor, I doubt that Panasonic would let Sony manufacture it and thereby get full insight into the technology. Panasonic is a large, resourceful corporation (slightly larger than Sony actually) and can most probably find other sources for the manufacturing.

 

[iiiNelson]

If it really is the Towerjazz sensor, I doubt that Panasonic would let Sony manufacture it and thereby get full insight into the technology. Panasonic is a large, resourceful corporation (slightly larger than Sony actually) and can most probably find other sources for the manufacturing.

True but that’s assuming Sony won’t actually be producing a Panasonic designed sensor based upon future Sony tech... and I’m only saying this because Sony has produced sensors for both Olympus and Panasonic system cameras since moving to the 16 and 20 megapixel CMOS sensors from the Panasonic 12 and 16 megapixel NMOS sensors.

...and I’m aware Panasonic is a large company. It’s funny how people don’t view them with the same negativity as an electronics company due to perception of far less aggressive marketing but that’s another subject.

Nowni have no doubt Panasonic is highly capable of producing a state of the art sensor. The one used in the EVA1 is extremely good and the VariCam sensors produce the most “filmic look” this side of the vastly more expensive Arri sensors. So if that’s what we can all expect the video then I anxiously await what Panasonic will bring to the pro hybrid system camera market.

 

[Vivek]

Odd issn’t it?

 

[iiiNelson]

Odd issn’t it?

It is a little odd because there’s a major website or magazine where I don’t see a Canon or Nikon ad conveniently placed along the borders. They’re aggressively fighting for mindshare too and have always aggressively marketed. I do believe that Sony took a different approach and sought out social media influencers ALONG with professional photographers to tap more strongly into the advanced hobbyist market, pro wedding/portrait market, and pro sports markets more recently.

Panasonic is very aggressive about the pro and advanced hobbyist video market to the extent that they have a large agreement with Netflix Original content (though there are another approved cameras on the list) being recorded on their cameras.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

...and I’m aware Panasonic is a large company. It’s funny how people don’t view them with the same negativity as an electronics company due to perception of far less aggressive marketing but that’s another subject.

Let's have a history lesson, Sony first:
Sony is a pioneer of digital photography. I'd almost say that they are the pioneer. They attempted to make digital photography mainstream already with the Mavica range, and for a long time, that was in reality the only game in town. Then they launched a long string of very interesting and mostly very capable cameras.

Then they bought the Konica Minolta camera division, and although it was probably mostly a Konica Minolta product, they launched the A900 to great fanfare. It was indeed a fine camera, which could also be said about the Zeiss lenses.

Then came mistake number 1, NEX-3 and NEX-5. My first thought was "great design, have to try them". And I did. Total disappointment. No viewfinder of course, but the worst thing was that I couldn't figure out how to use them. Later I learned that the lenses weren't much to write home about.

Mistake number 2, SLT. Sony's belief that photographers would prefer a bad electronic viewfinder over a flapping mirror was a total miscalculation. I tried one of the first models together with an A700, and the A700 felt like a camera next to a cheap plastic toy. Every camera forum on earth was filled with poison and Sony had alienated most of their system users, many of whom had invested heavily in A-mount lenses that they intended using for years to come.

Mistake number 3, the acquisition of Toshiba's sensor division. While it made perfect economic sense, and from what I remember was up for sale anyway, Sony went from being a dominating supplier of sensors to more or less monopoly. Few people like that. Most of the time, that means less competiton, less innovation and higher prices.

Mistake number 4, the A7. The A7 is a unique family of cameras, but the Mark I versions had to many weaknesses, and coming from a manufacturer that should have gathered a substantial amount of experience producing system cameras, it was too weak. Many people claim that it's a success, but reality is that Sony only has 13% of the world's ILC market, which is far too little to protect them against the competition that is now appearing. This is also related to mistake number 5:

Too few models. In reality, there are only two models, the 6000 Series and the A7. For those who don't like tiny cameras, there's only the A7. With most other brands, you can choose between 5-10 models before you reach the top, each of them with a separate set of features and with different size and ergonomics.

Then Panasonic:
Panasonic had no history as a stills camera manufacturer before digital. Still, they made some pretty cool compact cameras starting in 2001, and some even cooler ones together with Leica. Then came the overpriced L1, which was so cool that people bought it in spite of the price. Then the forgetable L10 and then the G1.

The G1 was a camera that I disliked from the outset. It was ugly, looked plasticy and came from one of those big, Japanese electronics corporations. However, after hearing good stuff about the GH1, I decided to try that model. And I was surprised. It was still ugly, made from what appeared to be cheap plastic, but ergonomics were good, and having had experience with the Olympus E-1, I saw the advantages of the small sensor. The big difference compared to the Sonys was that Panasonic didn't try to re-invent the wheel. The G/GH cameras are the most boring looking cameras on the market, but they are built on designs that have proven to work and on ergonomics that are based on camera designs from way back then.

In addition, there are no aggressive marketing campaigns telling me how happy I will become if I buy the latest wonder from Panasonic. I do actually think that their sales suffer quite a bit from that, and from the fact that their cameras are often pretty ugly. But I can use their cameras without reading too much in the user manual (the first time I did that was earlier this year to figure out the AF of the GX8) and they are rather unpretentious workhorses.

I don't think for a moment that Panasonic is in any way a better company than Sony, but their cameras are very functional and the designs plus everything surrounding them are understated rather than hip and cool. They are like that guy in a grey suit who you see on the train going to work every morning, but don't really notice.

There's a Norwegian idiom that translates into something like "Up like a bear, down like a sheepskin". That was what happened to Sony's DSLR system. Their reputation will suffer from that for a long time to come. Hopefully, their mirrorless system will do better.

 

[iiiNelson]

Let's have a history lesson, Sony first:
Sony is a pioneer of digital photography. I'd almost say that they are the pioneer. They attempted to make digital photography mainstream already with the Mavica range, and for a long time, that was in reality the only game in town. Then they launched a long string of very interesting and mostly very capable cameras.

Then they bought the Konica Minolta camera division, and although it was probably mostly a Konica Minolta product, they launched the A900 to great fanfare. It was indeed a fine camera, which could also be said about the Zeiss lenses.

Then came mistake number 1, NEX-3 and NEX-5. My first thought was "great design, have to try them". And I did. Total disappointment. No viewfinder of course, but the worst thing was that I couldn't figure out how to use them. Later I learned that the lenses weren't much to write home about.

Mistake number 2, SLT. Sony's belief that photographers would prefer a bad electronic viewfinder over a flapping mirror was a total miscalculation. I tried one of the first models together with an A700, and the A700 felt like a camera next to a cheap plastic toy. Every camera forum on earth was filled with poison and Sony had alienated most of their system users, many of whom had invested heavily in A-mount lenses that they intended using for years to come.

Mistake number 3, the acquisition of Toshiba's sensor division. While it made perfect economic sense, and from what I remember was up for sale anyway, Sony went from being a dominating supplier of sensors to more or less monopoly. Few people like that. Most of the time, that means less competiton, less innovation and higher prices.

Mistake number 4, the A7. The A7 is a unique family of cameras, but the Mark I versions had to many weaknesses, and coming from a manufacturer that should have gathered a substantial amount of experience producing system cameras, it was too weak. Many people claim that it's a success, but reality is that Sony only has 13% of the world's ILC market, which is far too little to protect them against the competition that is now appearing. This is also related to mistake number 5:

Too few models. In reality, there are only two models, the 6000 Series and the A7. For those who don't like tiny cameras, there's only the A7. With most other brands, you can choose between 5-10 models before you reach the top, each of them with a separate set of features and with different size and ergonomics.

Then Panasonic:
Panasonic had no history as a stills camera manufacturer before digital. Still, they made some pretty cool compact cameras starting in 2001, and some even cooler ones together with Leica. Then came the overpriced L1, which was so cool that people bought it in spite of the price. Then the forgetable L10 and then the G1.

The G1 was a camera that I disliked from the outset. It was ugly, looked plasticy and came from one of those big, Japanese electronics corporations. However, after hearing good stuff about the GH1, I decided to try that model. And I was surprised. It was still ugly, made from what appeared to be cheap plastic, but ergonomics were good, and having had experience with the Olympus E-1, I saw the advantages of the small sensor. The big difference compared to the Sonys was that Panasonic didn't try to re-invent the wheel. The G/GH cameras are the most boring looking cameras on the market, but they are built on designs that have proven to work and on ergonomics that are based on camera designs from way back then.

In addition, there are no aggressive marketing campaigns telling me how happy I will become if I buy the latest wonder from Panasonic. I do actually think that their sales suffer quite a bit from that, and from the fact that their cameras are often pretty ugly. But I can use their cameras without reading too much in the user manual (the first time I did that was earlier this year to figure out the AF of the GX8) and they are rather unpretentious workhorses.

I don't think for a moment that Panasonic is in any way a better company than Sony, but their cameras are very functional and the designs plus everything surrounding them are understated rather than hip and cool. They are like that guy in a grey suit who you see on the train going to work every morning, but don't really notice.

There's a Norwegian idiom that translates into something like "Up like a bear, down like a sheepskin". That was what happened to Sony's DSLR system. Their reputation will suffer from that for a long time to come. Hopefully, their mirrorless system will do better.

Well there’s certainly a lot of opinion mixed into the history lesson but I’ll try to understand where you’re coming from.

NEX series was not a mistake it was a proof of concept for Mirrorless technology. I think complexity has a lot to do with generational experience. I never read the manual on my NEX 5 and I could get it to do what I needed it to do relatively simply. If anything the menus were overly simplistic but it was aimed at the casual photographer that might buy a bridge camera, advanced P&S, or maybe even the most entry level DSLR. My first impression of it was that the IQ was significantly better than anything Micro 4/3 and it was fairly usuable up to ISO 3200despite the lenses being nowhere near as good (I agree 100% with you regarding most of Sony APS-C lens lineup). It provided lessons learned and lead to adoption of Alpha cameras being a unified platform so that whether you’re using a P&S like a RX100, and A99II, or an A9 there will be commonality between all of the cameras.

Mistake 2 also wasn’t a mistake but rather an attempt to bridge some Mirrorless benefits to a traditional DSLR type camera. It wasn’t really a huge commercial success but it provided lessons to be learned which eventually became integrated into future cameras. The A900 was an excellent camera - by all accounts so is the A99II... I’ve yet to meet an owner of the A99II (as limited as they may be) that didn’t love it. EVF tech wasn’t what it is today so maybe the camera was a bit ahead of its time but that’s ok in a sense. The same can be said for the early generations of any new technology.

I dont see how purchasing Toshiba was a mistake of it was up for sale. Anyone could’ve made the offer and acquisition of competition/patents is standard practice in most any business sector.

The A7 started the FF Mirrorless Revolution... how this is a mistake I have no idea. Were there some rough edges? Sure but the Nikon Z had 5 years to look at correctable mistakes and didn’t learn those same lesson. Don’t wanna continue to beat that drum but I just have too much real life experience shooting portraits, wildlife, etc. with the camera to say it was a “weak” camera. There were improvements that needed to be made and largely every issue that’s an actual issue has been corrected (outside the sony name on the top plate). Now regarding the 13% , Sony has shown growth were most other companies not named Canon have struggled. I believe prior to the A7 lineup their share was around 2% so that shows how much of an influence Sony products have on the market. At the end of the day they have an extremely mature system where others are just now starting and building towards where they are. At this point Sony can focus on niche/specialty lenses and updates to a few of the weaker offerings like the 24-70/4 (for those that don’t want the 24-105) or the 35/2.8. The bodies will be updated and released in time but they’re comfortably ahead of everything the competition offers or likely will offer today.

I think Sony offering dedicated and focused models are why they are in a healthy position today. I don’t know that Nikon for instance needs the 3xxx, 5xxx, 7xxx, D5xx, D6xx, D7xx, D8xx, Dx series plus all those other cancelled cameras at this point. They can do a low end, mid-tier, and high end body and be done with it all but that’s just my opinion... actually I think more companies are consolidating their camera portfolios in general to streamline the options as these cameras do more for less money.

Ergonomics is subjective. I wouldn’t mind a slightly larger body but I also have grips for all my Sony cameras.

Now regarding Panasonic... well I jumped in the G1 as soon as I could. I sold my Canon kit and jumped head first into Mirrorless. The IQ was good enough, lenses were decent, and the size was portable enough. The EVF looked like an EVF but I was used to them from video cameras so I was never a OVF or die type of person... I just didn’t care because I could get on with either. My film cameras have OVF (or ground glass) and my digital cameras have EVF. When it was released I added a GF1 and eventually a GH2 before moving onto Leica M9’s. I tried many of the Panasonic 4/3 cameras in the past but I was indifferent to them as they seemed to be overpriced. It really wasn’t until the Micro 4/3 was released that I took Panasonic still cameras more seriously.

Now regarding marketing. I actually admire Sony’s marketing because it’s effectivewithout being overdone - yes I’m looking at the Mirrorless reinvented marketing campaign which I saw as 90% the reason for a lot of the Nikon Z backlash. Sony marketing is to get their products in the hands of enthusiastic people and influencers that can seek the product being used as intended and it’s hard to fight the evidence of that. It’s brilliant and genius - even if it is somewhat aggressive.

Just my opinion though but i can make up my mind regardingif a product will likely be “for me” in a short period of time.

 

[retow]

Interesting details at least ...

It has a new Panasonic designed mount
The sensor is made by Panasonic and it’s not “borrowed” from current Sony FF sensors
The camera will start shipping out in March 2019
The camera is said to have high video quality


https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/th...-a-new-mount-and-a-panasonic-designed-sensor/

Great to see the Sony FF sensor "monopoly" being challenged.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Well there’s certainly a lot of opinion mixed into the history lesson but I’ll try to understand where you’re coming from.

NEX series was not a mistake it was a proof of concept for Mirrorless technology. I think complexity has a lot to do with generational experience. I never read the manual on my NEX 5 and I could get it to do what I needed it to do relatively simply. If anything the menus were overly simplistic but it was aimed at the casual photographer that might buy a bridge camera, advanced P&S, or maybe even the most entry level DSLR. My first impression of it was that the IQ was significantly better than anything Micro 4/3 and it was fairly usuable up to ISO 3200despite the lenses being nowhere near as good (I agree 100% with you regarding most of Sony APS-C lens lineup). It provided lessons learned and lead to adoption of Alpha cameras being a unified platform so that whether you’re using a P&S like a RX100, and A99II, or an A9 there will be commonality between all of the cameras.

Mistake 2 also wasn’t a mistake but rather an attempt to bridge some Mirrorless benefits to a traditional DSLR type camera. It wasn’t really a huge commercial success but it provided lessons to be learned which eventually became integrated into future cameras. The A900 was an excellent camera - by all accounts so is the A99II... I’ve yet to meet an owner of the A99II (as limited as they may be) that didn’t love it. EVF tech wasn’t what it is today so maybe the camera was a bit ahead of its time but that’s ok in a sense. The same can be said for the early generations of any new technology.

I dont see how purchasing Toshiba was a mistake of it was up for sale. Anyone could’ve made the offer and acquisition of competition/patents is standard practice in most any business sector.

The A7 started the FF Mirrorless Revolution... how this is a mistake I have no idea. Were there some rough edges? Sure but the Nikon Z had 5 years to look at correctable mistakes and didn’t learn those same lesson. Don’t wanna continue to beat that drum but I just have too much real life experience shooting portraits, wildlife, etc. with the camera to say it was a “weak” camera. There were improvements that needed to be made and largely every issue that’s an actual issue has been corrected (outside the sony name on the top plate). Now regarding the 13% , Sony has shown growth were most other companies not named Canon have struggled. I believe prior to the A7 lineup their share was around 2% so that shows how much of an influence Sony products have on the market. At the end of the day they have an extremely mature system where others are just now starting and building towards where they are. At this point Sony can focus on niche/specialty lenses and updates to a few of the weaker offerings like the 24-70/4 (for those that don’t want the 24-105) or the 35/2.8. The bodies will be updated and released in time but they’re comfortably ahead of everything the competition offers or likely will offer today.

I think Sony offering dedicated and focused models are why they are in a healthy position today. I don’t know that Nikon for instance needs the 3xxx, 5xxx, 7xxx, D5xx, D6xx, D7xx, D8xx, Dx series plus all those other cancelled cameras at this point. They can do a low end, mid-tier, and high end body and be done with it all but that’s just my opinion... actually I think more companies are consolidating their camera portfolios in general to streamline the options as these cameras do more for less money.

Ergonomics is subjective. I wouldn’t mind a slightly larger body but I also have grips for all my Sony cameras.

Now regarding Panasonic... well I jumped in the G1 as soon as I could. I sold my Canon kit and jumped head first into Mirrorless. The IQ was good enough, lenses were decent, and the size was portable enough. The EVF looked like an EVF but I was used to them from video cameras so I was never a OVF or die type of person... I just didn’t care because I could get on with either. My film cameras have OVF (or ground glass) and my digital cameras have EVF. When it was released I added a GF1 and eventually a GH2 before moving onto Leica M9’s. I tried many of the Panasonic 4/3 cameras in the past but I was indifferent to them as they seemed to be overpriced. It really wasn’t until the Micro 4/3 was released that I took Panasonic still cameras more seriously.

Now regarding marketing. I actually admire Sony’s marketing because it’s effectivewithout being overdone - yes I’m looking at the Mirrorless reinvented marketing campaign which I saw as 90% the reason for a lot of the Nikon Z backlash. Sony marketing is to get their products in the hands of enthusiastic people and influencers that can seek the product being used as intended and it’s hard to fight the evidence of that. It’s brilliant and genius - even if it is somewhat aggressive.

Just my opinion though but i can make up my mind regardingif a product will likely be “for me” in a short period of time.

Tre, great summary. Thanks.
A shot with NEX-5N. Methinks not bad, not bad at all. :grin:

Frijoles creek at Bandelier.

Sony NEX-5N + E 24.0 mm f/1.8 @ ISO 100, FOCAL LENGTH 24.0 mm, APERTURE f/4.5, EXPOSURE TIME 0.01s (1/100).

 

[biglouis]

Interesting. Over at the Fuji Rumors site (my other system is Fujifilm) 43% of respondents to a poll asking the question should Fuji 'Keep their focus on APS-C and MF and stay out of FF?' responded 'Yes!'. In fact the total of responders who reject the idea of Fuji going FF, out of a list of questions is a resounding 77%.

I feel the same way about Panasonic. Why go FF?

I believe over time FF (e.g. 36x24mm) will be seen as a major disadvantage for mirrorless. The bodies will be small but the lenses will be relatively large and unbalanced (just like Sony and the forthcoming Nikon Z6/7).

At the weekend I went to a family event but for once left my camera at home. Why? My Huawei P9 takes good enough photographs - and a relative who was using her latest iPhone for group shots produced the most amazing photographs (and showed me a panorama made from one iPhone image which stretched across her hallway wall and was better than some panoramas I have shot with my digital cameras).

This thirst for FF is to my mind the same empty marketing ploy of 'more megapixels' (which used to mean more noise). In fact, the control of s/n in sensor technology seems to have been cracked for all practical purposes which is why photos from the tiny sensors in the latest smartphones looks so damn good.

So what is the point of FF and indeed what is the point of limiting yourself to an antiquated film standard when Pentax, Fuji and Hasselblad have all demonstrated that you can now go MF and it is increasingly affordable?

Just my two cents.

LouisB

 

[ptomsu]

I applaud Panasonic for going FF

1) as already often stated there cannot be enough competition and this is all good for having more choices and finally better equipment for lower prices

2) while I love Fuji I still find their marketing behind APSC is not right anymore - it was 6-7 years ago when they reentered digital cameras again and started building a system from scratch - but hey FF brings so many advantages over APSC and if you really want to go small then m43 is the answer.

3) Even if Fuji MFD is a brave step and their cameras are good and relatively cheap for MF, the market is pretty small and many opted out of this because of price and the fact that FF is coming pretty close IQ wise. Speed wise and size wise FF is the winner anyway.

Could go on with that endlessly but the fact is that for me APSC is dying and mirrorless FF and m43 will be the dominant systems for the years to come.

Just MY 5c

 

[Vivek]

There's a Norwegian idiom that translates into something like "Up like a bear, down like a sheepskin".

Is that how a Panasonic user who claims to be a Nikonista is described?

Loved my G1. Still have a couple of them around..