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Thread: David Pogue's GH1 article

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    David Pogue's GH1 article

    Looks like he's gotten one to play with....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/te...ewanted=1&_r=1

    It also seems that the US list price has been set at $1500 as I doubt he would publish that number without some confirmation by Panny.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Nice review--actually very nice review overall, though I would quibble a bit. I guess he didn't see the value in the G1 because it didn't have video--and doesn't see the 14-45 lens as equivalent (wasn't sure if he meant range or quality) to 14-140. I also really really do not want a smaller camera--this is at the size/range I'm comfortable shooting and would not want an interchangeable lens camera smaller. They could alter the design a bit--more rangefinder like, but I want the EVF, not smaller buttons but not less either I don't think--just a rethinking of them. No smaller grip, no smaller LCD. When you take the lens off, its about same size as my G9--I don't want mine any smaller.

    He also values video a great deal whereas I don't, but it may make the difference in the m4/3rds format being accepted more readily and that's okay with me. I will assume that the next m4/3rds body I buy will have video (unless they really do maintain the H and nonH lines side by side)--I just won't use it. I've been there/done that with video cams, video on my G9--and I just don't have any use for it--but lots of other people are clammering for it, so my opinion is worthless LOL.

    Diane


    Diane

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    I just watched this video--I can see why videographers are excited about it. He is a pretty accomplished shooter, but said he's just now trying it out (for Panasonic it appears when you read his blog).
    http://www.vimeo.com/4405518

    Diane

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    I just watched this video--I can see why videographers are excited about it. He is a pretty accomplished shooter, but said he's just now trying it out (for Panasonic it appears when you read his blog).
    http://www.vimeo.com/4405518

    Diane
    If you read his reply to the blog comments below the video he seems very impressed and will own one.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    I'm a still photographer and don't know anything about modern digital video formats. Video is not my thing. Too old? Well, I'm nottoo old to remember the great fun me and my friends had when we were in the age of 20-25 or so. If the GH1 had been available back then we would have been jumping of joy.

    So, I truly believe that this new thing with good movie cameras being able of taking good still images will result in a new time and new opinions on both still images and videos.

    In the video by Philip Bloom one can see some of the strengths and weaknesses of the camera demonstrated. The lens is too slow. The daylight images look wonderful. That sounds familiar also from the perspective of a still image shooter.

    Sometimes I see wonderful slowly filmed parts of movies and think about the special look a filmed view has compared to a static still image. Maybe one should try...

    /Jonas

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Hey, filmed in my hometown. Looks really good...

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    I just watched this video--I can see why videographers are excited about it.
    I suspect I'm almost the perfect target customer for the GH1: I'm primarily a still photographer, but on the rare occasions when I do shoot video I do it carefully and want to get high-quality results. And I'm not into HD yet, so I'm open to options.

    Spending $1500 on a GH1 that I also can use as a still camera might make more sense than spending, say, $1300 on a top-end Panasonic consumer HD camcorder that I'd only use a few times a year.

    But the deal-breaker for me is the 14-140 lens' paltry f/4~5.8 maximum aperture (vs. f/1.8~2.8 on the camcorder lens.) That's just not going to cut it for indoor video. Using my M-mount or C-mount lenses, as I do on my G1, would be an option, but not having zoom is a much bigger drawback on a video camera than it is on a still camera.

    So then I'd be scratching for a Pan Cinor or Vario-Switar or other cine zoom with a decent maximum aperture AND decent coverage on the GH1 sensor... which might be even more of a challenge than it is with fixed-focal-length cine lenses...

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    I assume that the GH1, as with the G1, will also be sold only with a lens (14-140 for GH1).

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    I do low budget educational videos and for this I'm quite sure will be the perfect camera for me. I've used a HV20 with a DOF adapter which is a pain to use and bulky. This will be perfect for 720p production (good enough for me). The other wonderful benefit is the 'stealth' factor. Shooting with this camera and some C-mounts will be soooo much less 'attention attracting' which definitely has been a trouble spot for me at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    So then I'd be scratching for a Pan Cinor or Vario-Switar or other cine zoom with a decent maximum aperture AND decent coverage on the GH1 sensor... which might be even more of a challenge than it is with fixed-focal-length cine lenses...
    That's going to be a toughy! I will tell you this... I've practiced with my Nikon 17-35 (makes for a good 'normal' zoom range) on the G1 a little bit and as long as I treat it as a lens with a camera attached (and not the opposite..) it works quite well. F2.8 should fit the bill so I'd be looking at quick aps-c zooms if I was you.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    The demo from NYtimes is really not bad. Every product has its own strong side and weakness. GH1 is still on the good side IMO. Of course, being the pioneer of mirror-less DSLR or bridge camera, it also suffers from being the first imperfect product on the market. But G1 has impressed a lot of people. So it does not need to worry about the future of this product (or the similar)

    Let me share some of my information. From the site in amazon.co.jp, pre-ordering for GH1 with 14-140mm kit is about 133,332 yen (local free shipping), which is more or less equal to $1365 USD. The price of NYtimes indeeds quite close and the MSRP is always a little bit higher than the actual street price. Being a "semi - new" product (an upgrade of G1), the price seems higher than our expectation. But the most interesting thing is, if you are not going for HD video and still interested in the 14-140mm lens, it costs about 75,500 yen, which is about $765 USD solely. Now you find the price of a GH1 body is exactly $600 USD. As I remember, a G1 kit from Canada is $599 free shipping. Well, will there be a price drop of G1 in the near future? Let's wait and see.

    I am not sure how sensitive is the potential users of GH1. The camera can just support 1920 X1080p @24fps. The frame rate is still not smooth enough if you are going to play the video on the Full HD TV set. However, in HD resolution it can go up to 1280 X 720 @ 60fps, a much faster and competence rate comparing with a serious HD camcorder. In fact, it is really a dilemma as a better next generation product should be coming after a year, said 1920 X 1080 @30 / 60fps. If you're going to use it seriously on video, you have reason to be patient as GH1 may just be a transitional product in the HD video field.

    In fact, there is an obvious trend of the added HD video function in DSLR. Canon EOS 500D and Nikon D5000 are the hottest models of hybrid function. The weaknesses comparing with GH1 are slower fps, mono audio and the slow respond of auto focus. But both parties just need time to get close to there competitors. I can tell you, a new set of 500D with Tamron 18-270mm is as low as $1300 USD in Hong Kong. Quite a potential competitor of GH1.

    To Range 9:
    If you really want to use a Vario-Switar, you should bare in mind that you may need three hands to do a good job of taking video. A normal film shooting needs two people to operate that one is for zooming while another takes care for focusing. And as I know, the chance of cine zoom lens covering the whole sensor is not quite possible. I have one cine lens with 9-90mm made in China that can just cover the sensor from 50 - 90mm. Is it worthwhile to use a lens with just half of the zoom range fully covering the sensor? I doubt it. But it is just my opinion, you can still go with it if you're comfort with this draw back. May the image quality can compensate. Good luck!

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    I've created a group on Vimeo with a collection of the GH1 footage that people are uploading.

    http://www.vimeo.com/groups/gh1

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Just a maybe naive question based on Pentacon6's thoughts: It's clear that the wide angle cine lenses do not cover the full sensor at 4000:3000 pixel or the slightly smaller formats on the G1. Now, I would assume that videos which use the 1280 x 720 resolution use the center of the sensor. That surface would be much closer to 16mm cine format, so wouldn't that dramatically increase the chances that the wide angle or zoom cine lenses might work for video on the GH1?

    Stefan

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Let me give my perspective as a filmmaker-- 1080p at 24fps is the desired framerate. The 5D gets knocks for being 30fps. We're not looking for "smoothness", we're looking for cinema. So, being able to shoot in the frame rate that films actually play at is a very important feature and we've been pestering camera companies to deliver a 24fps mode rather than a 30fps mode.

    Shooting at 60fps in 720 is great for an overcranked effect, so you get good slow motion at 24fps.

    I was worried about the speed of the lens, but seeing the bar footage in that video diminished my worries. If it can do that in f4 in a random bar, then it can do what I need. I don't think he was bringing lights into that bar for that shoot! He just set up, and used available light. The dark areas should be dark because bars are dark. I don't like interiors to all be fully lit because that's not how things are in real life.

    Plus, of course, there's the option to use a fast prime in any lens mount you prefer.

    This fall when the 20mm f1.7 comes out that will be even better-- a fast prime with auto focus. I think the AF may be a bit noisy if you're using an on camera mic, but those situations where you need it you can use external sound or an external mic plugged into the mic port.

    I think the target market for this camera is tourists who want to shoot video and take still pictures on vacations.... and parents who want to document their kids lives.

    But as someone for whom the stills photo capability is just a bonus feature, this is a great camera.... it eliminates every camcorder from consideration for me.

    Let me put it this way: Robert Rodriguez would have killed to have this camera when he shot El Mariachi. For me, there is no better cinema camera on the market, at even 10 times the price.
    Last edited by LizaWitz; 30th April 2009 at 11:08.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by apicius9 View Post
    Just a maybe naive question based on Pentacon6's thoughts: It's clear that the wide angle cine lenses do not cover the full sensor at 4000:3000 pixel or the slightly smaller formats on the G1. Now, I would assume that videos which use the 1280 x 720 resolution use the center of the sensor.
    That would be an awesome option for 720 60p!! But rest assured in 720 mode it's using the entire width of the sensor in 16:9 aspect.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    For me 720 vs 1080 is a non-issue. Why? Because there's no way to distribute what I make. Can you believe that I don't know a single person who has a Blu-Ray player?

    Every video project I do goes out on standard-definition DVDs. The only reason I'm interested in HD at all is that 720P footage looks a bit sharper and more detailed when downsampled to SD than native SD footage shot with my tired old Canon ZR40.

    So I figure I'd be fine with the GH1's video specs, and finally being able to get true manual aperture control would be awesome. (You have to buy a pretty expensive camcorder to get one on which you can just set the gain you want, the aperture you want, the focus distance you want, and have them stay put!)

    If it turns out that the near-pinhole lens doesn't really hamper low-light shooting, I might be fine with it... so will be interested to see the samples "Ms. Minelli" (yes, I remember that old TV special) is assembling on Vimeo...

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by pentacon6 View Post
    I am not sure how sensitive is the potential users of GH1. The camera can just support 1920 X1080p @24fps. The frame rate is still not smooth enough if you are going to play the video on the Full HD TV set.
    I really hate the marketing term "Full HD." It's just a pet peeve of mine I guess. For the record there are 18 specified resolutions/ formats which cover the HD range. Believe it or not 1080p is NOT one of the specified ones. Most everyone generally agrees on everything 720p and up is "HD" though. Widescreen 480p (848x480) is actually the lowest resolution HD format though which coincides with DVD. 1080p is relatively new and is only of concern for movie studios and video games. It's not apart of the HD standard and no one broadcasts in it in USA.

    Cinema is filmed in 24fps. That's what most film makers are concerned with although most televisions and projectors have internal 3:2 video scalers to get 24fps for movies. All said the GH1 looks good and I may consider one once the price starts falling or with the updated next generation one.
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Looks like he's gotten one to play with....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/te...ewanted=1&_r=1

    It also seems that the US list price has been set at $1500 as I doubt he would publish that number without some confirmation by Panny.
    I would not be sure about the price. I posted here http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7131 a link about the AU price, no one seemed to comment??

    If you do the exchange rate calculation it will be more like US$2400. Even if you take into account the bigger market I'm not sure it will make US$1500. ?? So who knows?

    At that US price I can have a holiday in the USA buy a GH1 and pay the tax back here and probably still be better off than the AU price!

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    The main reason if not only, I am interested in this camera is for it's video capabilities.

    For its price at this stage IT IS AMAZING!

    - Unlike Nikon D90, Canon 5D2, it CAN BE manually controlled!!!
    - It has a larger size sensor, closer to 35mm movie and larger than s16mm, that gives you a better control over depth of field, a better low light sensitivity, due to larger photosites (5m).
    - one can use a lot of third party lenses from a limited number of old 16mm stock, to almost anything imaginable, including 35mm cine lenses.
    - There is nothing out there, close to this unless you jump into RED ONE, that is much more accomplished technology, for a different price of course.

    If Panasonic or someone would be able to enable on it, RAW recording as RED does, it would a VERY hard deal to beat.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I would not be sure about the price. I posted here http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7131 a link about the AU price, no one seemed to comment??

    If you do the exchange rate calculation it will be more like US$2400. Even if you take into account the bigger market I'm not sure it will make US$1500. ?? So who knows?

    At that US price I can have a holiday in the USA buy a GH1 and pay the tax back here and probably still be better off than the AU price!
    Tim,

    I am very annoyed about the Oz RRP too. I don't know if the market will change this, but will have to wait and see. I am sure there will be grey imports, with options to buy the body only or different lens combinations.

    Or, who knows, we could hop on a plane, buy one in HK or Singapore, down some noodles and a beer in down town and come back home next morning with a camera at half price.

  20. #20
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by pentacon6 View Post
    The demo from NYtimes is really not bad. Every product has its own strong side and weakness. GH1 is still on the good side IMO. Of course, being the pioneer of mirror-less DSLR or bridge camera, it also suffers from being the first imperfect product on the market. But G1 has impressed a lot of people. So it does not need to worry about the future of this product (or the similar)

    Let me share some of my information. From the site in amazon.co.jp, pre-ordering for GH1 with 14-140mm kit is about 133,332 yen (local free shipping), which is more or less equal to $1365 USD. The price of NYtimes indeeds quite close and the MSRP is always a little bit higher than the actual street price. Being a "semi - new" product (an upgrade of G1), the price seems higher than our expectation. But the most interesting thing is, if you are not going for HD video and still interested in the 14-140mm lens, it costs about 75,500 yen, which is about $765 USD solely. Now you find the price of a GH1 body is exactly $600 USD. As I remember, a G1 kit from Canada is $599 free shipping. Well, will there be a price drop of G1 in the near future? Let's wait and see.

    I am not sure how sensitive is the potential users of GH1. The camera can just support 1920 X1080p @24fps. The frame rate is still not smooth enough if you are going to play the video on the Full HD TV set. However, in HD resolution it can go up to 1280 X 720 @ 60fps, a much faster and competence rate comparing with a serious HD camcorder. In fact, it is really a dilemma as a better next generation product should be coming after a year, said 1920 X 1080 @30 / 60fps. If you're going to use it seriously on video, you have reason to be patient as GH1 may just be a transitional product in the HD video field.

    In fact, there is an obvious trend of the added HD video function in DSLR. Canon EOS 500D and Nikon D5000 are the hottest models of hybrid function. The weaknesses comparing with GH1 are slower fps, mono audio and the slow respond of auto focus. But both parties just need time to get close to there competitors. I can tell you, a new set of 500D with Tamron 18-270mm is as low as $1300 USD in Hong Kong. Quite a potential competitor of GH1.

    To Range 9:
    If you really want to use a Vario-Switar, you should bare in mind that you may need three hands to do a good job of taking video. A normal film shooting needs two people to operate that one is for zooming while another takes care for focusing. And as I know, the chance of cine zoom lens covering the whole sensor is not quite possible. I have one cine lens with 9-90mm made in China that can just cover the sensor from 50 - 90mm. Is it worthwhile to use a lens with just half of the zoom range fully covering the sensor? I doubt it. But it is just my opinion, you can still go with it if you're comfort with this draw back. May the image quality can compensate. Good luck!
    The camera shoots 1080p for 25 or 30fps which is absolutely great for those of us who need to supply broadcast material. The 24fps is for the 720p option from what I understand.

    Nikon D90's movie picture quality is nothing short of dismal and has has serious rolling shutter artifacts.

    Canon 5D2 is great in low light but almost impossible to manual control the exposure and sensitivity. For me, totally useless!!

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    I hope Tokina will make their great 11-16mm f2.8 in a 4/3 mount for Panasonic!!!!

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I would not be sure about the price. I posted here http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7131 a link about the AU price, no one seemed to comment??

    If you do the exchange rate calculation it will be more like US$2400. Even if you take into account the bigger market I'm not sure it will make US$1500. ?? So who knows?

    At that US price I can have a holiday in the USA buy a GH1 and pay the tax back here and probably still be better off than the AU price!
    Panasonic Australia is not a good barometer for pricing. Over the years (and I've owned a number of Panasonic cameras and been active in forums) the Aussies have complained bitterly about pricing and actually order from B&H when the gap is particularly egregious.

  23. #23
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Our problem here is that we need a 'PAL' version, capable of shooting 25p, not 30p.

    If the G1H is region agnostic, I don't know at this stage. It would be great!

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by pix2pixels View Post
    Our problem here is that we need a 'PAL' version, capable of shooting 25p, not 30p.

    If the G1H is region agnostic, I don't know at this stage. It would be great!
    Sometims you Flat Panel TV may matter on synchronizing with the frequency.
    There is not a big problem in HK as most of the HDTV is adjustable to adapter different video system or frequency. The common rate are 50/60i, 50/60p, and frequency can be pushed up to 100/120Hz. We just find that HDTV blur the concept of video system. PAL and NTSC is seldom mentioned this date. If you can't solve the problem, you may play it on your PC.

  25. #25
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Pentacon,

    Many of us looking at this camera's video features, need to deliver proper 25fps masters to broadcast clients, not something close enough that will be at the mercy of end viewer's TV set. Your suggestion could OK for wedding videos, training or in-store promotion pieces.
    Also, 25fps is very close to the 24 fps used for cinema projection, and there are no serious issues about sound if anything needs a cinema print delivery.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by pix2pixels View Post
    Tim,

    I am very annoyed about the Oz RRP too. I don't know if the market will change this, but will have to wait and see. I am sure there will be grey imports, with options to buy the body only or different lens combinations.

    Or, who knows, we could hop on a plane, buy one in HK or Singapore, down some noodles and a beer in down town and come back home next morning with a camera at half price.
    hehe, thanks, good to know I'm not the only one. Noodles and beer and a GH1 sounds like a great idea!

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Panasonic Australia is not a good barometer for pricing. Over the years (and I've owned a number of Panasonic cameras and been active in forums) the Aussies have complained bitterly about pricing and actually order from B&H when the gap is particularly egregious.
    True Terry, we generally do pay more here, as we are about 10% the USA population I guess we don't have much buying power.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by pix2pixels View Post
    The camera shoots 1080p for 25 or 30fps which is absolutely great for those of us who need to supply broadcast material. The 24fps is for the 720p option from what I understand.
    Not quite right. The camera supports both NTSC countries and PAL countries. In PAL countries 1080 is 25fps. In NTSC countires 1080 is 24fps.

    In 720p mode, it shoots 60fps AVCHD or 30fps MJPEG.

    [QUOTE=pix2pixels;95818]Our problem here is that we need a 'PAL' version, capable of shooting 25p, not 30p. [quote]

    I think outside of Japan NTSC/PAL is a menu option-- but I don't know for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by pix2pixels View Post
    Many of us looking at this camera's video features, need to deliver proper 25fps masters to broadcast clients
    You'll be able to do this, in PAL mode the camera is true 25p.

  29. #29
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Liza,
    I hope you are right. I am looking forward to the release of the camera and trying to get as much info as possible.

    24fps is not an issue for me. 25 is good because we can deliver broadcast masters. I just finished shooting a feature with RED ONE and we shot at 25fps instead of 24: no flicker issues with practical discharge lamps (fluoros, street lights), much easier in postproduction and if we get a cinema release, the conversion to 24fps can be done with no hassles.

    Also thank you for the post at dvxuser forum. They are very informative and the links you provided should be made in 'sticky'.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    I think the GH1 lends itself more to the consumer than the professional market. I don't think you will get or should even expect Red ONE results. I believe the GH1 will be great for family use, students, and "the YouTube" crowd but I would be really surprised if it delivers professional quality results. You normally can't go by specs alone but It's a digital video camera that's still designed around a standard digital camera model.

    Just my opinion and I don't mean to discourage anyone. I'm just somewhat skeptical that it can be a true replacement for those who have demanding video needs.
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  31. #31
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    The GH1 will never compete with REDONE and I'm not kidding myself.
    The camera performs well beyond the 'youtube crowd' levels, and I think that with proper exposure and lighting will be a very capable camcorder. The compression it employs is very severe, but according to testers and users is not far from the performance of Sony EX1-3 cameras.

    I think I could use it for a variety of documentary pieces, some music videos, and who knows even short. Not for a cinema release, but, I think will probably pass the 720p or 1080i delivery standards for broadcast.

    Also, working as a photojournalist as well, I can tell you that we are doing A LOT of 'video' work, for on-line delivery. We have on our website, more video pieces (2-5 mins long) than all TV stations in this town.

    The publishing/broadcasting landscape is changing rapidly. As long as I have 'exposure' my work is seen, commented, I am happy.

  32. #32
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Quote Originally Posted by pix2pixels View Post
    The GH1 will never compete with REDONE and I'm not kidding myself.
    I should have included SCARLET, but that is quite a long way before it will be released (very late 2009 or 2010) and the price difference will not necessarily provide 5 or 8 times better quality images.

    If Panasonic will enable HDMI output to be captured, bypassing the internal AVCHD compression, then we can talk about real competition.

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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    When I was referring to the Youtube crowd I didn't actually mean Youtube itself... I meant web video productions which are usually no larger than 640 x 480(320 x 240 normally though.) I think it's fine for that role and as you put it maybe even documentaries and web shorts. In general I think it will be good for tripod use but I would like to see how well it works "off hand." that's what I'm curious about myself.
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    Re: David Pogue's GH1 article

    Follow some links in this forum and this blog.
    Last edited by pix2pixels; 6th May 2009 at 21:44.

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