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Thread: 25/F0.95 party...

  1. #1
    milapse
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    25/F0.95 party...

    Here's an interesting head to head...
    -Soligor 'ITV'
    -Carl Meyer 'Moviar'
    -Angenieux 'Type M1'



    I could swear the design of the Soligar=C.Meyer=Navitar

    Let the boring stuff begin! Draw your own conclusions... 16:9/jpg/awb:

    Carl Meyer

    F0.95

    F1.2

    F1.4

    F2.0

  2. #2
    milapse
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Soligor
    F0.95

    F1.2
    [/img]http://images47.fotki.com/v1475/photos/5/148595/7530351/P1140397-vi.jpg[/img]
    F1.4

    F2.0

  3. #3
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Angenieux
    F0.95

    F1.2

    F1.4

    F2.0

  4. #4
    Senior Member apicius9's Avatar
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Very nice, thanks! I just wish I hadn't forgotten my glasses at home today... Is that Meyer sharper than the other two or does it just have a different DOF (or should I not say anything without my glasses )? These are all uncropped, right?

    You are ahead of me again, I wanted to do a similar comparison with the Angenieux M1, the Angenieux B&H, and the Zeika. The semester ends this Friday, after that I have more patience and time again, I hope

    Stefan

  5. #5
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by apicius9 View Post
    Very nice, thanks! I just wish I hadn't forgotten my glasses at home today... Is that Meyer sharper than the other two or does it just have a different DOF (or should I not say anything without my glasses )? These are all uncropped, right?

    You are ahead of me again, I wanted to do a similar comparison with the Angenieux M1, the Angenieux B&H, and the Zeika. The semester ends this Friday, after that I have more patience and time again, I hope

    Stefan
    Uncropped @ 16:9..

    You can check out the full res here. (go to the larger view->look for 'get original uploaded' at the bottom)

    I'm still trying to flush my own observations out of the test...

    I want to see the Zeika!

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I believe the Soligor, (Carl-Meyer- not a original maker), Navitar Version I, etc badged lenses are clones of the Angenieux Type M1 25/0.95 (even down to the mechanics).

    The Navitar Version I is a tad sharper and is very bright. Remarkable for a lens of that tiny package.

    Navitar Version II projects a flatter field. Very sharp as well.

  7. #7
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I believe the Soligor, (Carl-Meyer- not a original maker), Navitar Version I, etc badged lenses are clones of the Angenieux Type M1 25/0.95 (even down to the mechanics).
    hmmm, but the blades are different on mine... The M1 has 6 and the Soligor has 8?? The M1 also has such a different image character?

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I can't see any differences (at least the wide open images you show here).

  9. #9
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I can't see any differences (at least the wide open images you show here).
    Really? Here's some crops (both @ F0.95). I think they are different animals.

    Angenieux

    Sort of a 'milky' character not quite as sharp as the Soligor but 'inviting' if you will

    Soligor

    Sharper and more contrast but sort of 'clinical' to my eye

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    milapse, I still can't see anything dramatically different.

    I shot with the SOM-Berthiot and the Navitar Version I earlier. I could see quite a big difference (no pics from it to show now. They look terrible next to SOM's).

    Here are 2 from the Berthiot, wide open at ISO100.





    The SOM-Berthiot is quite distinct from the others I have/use in terms of micro contrast (difficult to show it here in small pics).

  11. #11
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I'd love to see some side by sides of your collection if you get the chance!

    I like the look of the Bertoit! I've tried a bunch of Som primes and not been so 'enamored' (the bokeh is wonderful but there was something so so)... Your 0.95 looks exceptional though. Where on earth did you find it and was it tough to modify?

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Will do.

    The first sample (Sopelem) was bought for 1 Euro (ebay). Broken 3 bladed iris and fixed focus weighing nearly a kilo. Not usable. I will do a total reconstruct some day.

    The second cost a lot more and was a local purchase. This sample was originally from Phillips labs. Have not modified it yet (not difficult) and am using it only at close focus distances. The cardboard box it came with is also very beautiful.

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...



    SOM-Berthiot 25/0.95 on a Panasonic G1 at f/0.95



    Navitar version I 25/0.95 on a Panasonic G1 at f/0.95

    Both (though magnifications are slightly different) were captured under identical lighting conditions and processed exactly the same way.

  14. #14
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Very interesting! Thanks.

    You have to hand it to Som for the bokeh... All the Som Berthiot lenses I've played with produce really nice backdrops.

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...



    Navitar Version II (Senko, etc) whole frame @f/0.95, ISO400, 1/20s. This lens does not have the simple barrel distortion of the Navitar Version I, slightly less bright and has a slight mustache distortion at longer distances.

    I have another that has f/0.85 engraved instead of f/0.95 but looks/behaves identically to the Navitar II. Both I would rate the aperture at f/1.1 than f/0.95 or the very optimistic f/0.85.

    The SOM-Berthiot 25/0.95 is very special. According to my count, it has at least one aspherical (benefits of the 1 Euro lens and the process of reconstruction)element if not two.

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    One more from the SOM-Berthiot. A buttercup.


  17. #17
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Very interesting! Is this the lens?

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Yes. Only my sample stayed in a video department most of its life and comes with a front metal cap and the original box.

    The SOPELEM version looks quite different though it has identical optics.

  19. #19
    valtof
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Hi,

    I've tested an Angénieux f:0.95/25mm in a shop in Paris that I'd like to buy.
    However I still have some kind of hesitation that people here might help me to get rid of.

    When I tested the lens, the focus ring was so stiff that it was almost unusable, which is not surprising for a lens that hasn't been used for years.
    The seller wants 500 € for it (a good price, what do you think?) and will give it a little service (lubrification essentially) before I decide to buy it.

    In the meanwhile, I've bought another fast 25mm, a silver f:1.4 SOM Berthiot (see attachments), mainly because it was very cheap in my opinion (50€) and also because it was the occasion to make some other tests and comparisons.
    This lens is in the same state than the Angy, that is very clean but with a very stiff focus ring which leads to very painful manipulation.
    The image quality is quite good even if the barrel distortion is quite pronounced. The image circle seems a bit larger than the Angénieux.
    I don't know if this Berthiot has good reputation. Any experience from all of you is welcome.

    So here are my conclusions and questions. It seems that many fast c-mount 25mm have this in common :

    - Not completely covering the m4/3 sensor (we all know that and that's not the biggest problem) ;
    - A focus ring placed at the very bottom of the lens which leads to painful focusing, especially when it's a bit stiff. Did somebody here experiment a really smooth focus ring ? Does it become really usable ?
    - Quite pronounced barrel distortion for such a focal lenght, why ?
    - Quite important quality fall between wide open and 1 stop closed (I mean compared, for example, to a Leica 50lux which is as pleasant at f:1.4 than f:2 with a different rendering)

    By the way, there's a silver Berthiot f.095/25mm to sell on eBay these days, but of a different type than the black one posted by Vivek. Is it the same type, quality? And does somebody know how much it could reach compared to the Angy?
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190307925639

    OK, any comment and advice are welcome to make up my mind...
    cheers

    .

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    The cine lens linked is most likely to be similar (if not the same) as the other Cinors mentioned.

    Stiff focusing ring on any old Angenieux is major pain to get corrected. It calls for professional (experienced/specialized in Angenieux) repair (personal experience).

    Hope this helps.

  21. #21
    valtof
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Stiff focusing ring on any old Angenieux is major pain to get corrected. It calls for professional (experienced/specialized in Angenieux) repair (personal experience).
    Thanks Vivek,

    Sorry to bother and insist but could you help me a bit more.
    I think you have one exemplar ot this Angy f:0.95 type M1.
    Is your focus ring smooth enough to make it pleasant and fast to use ?
    Given that the one I want to buy is supposed to get a little service to make it as smooth as it should be, do you think 500€ is a good price ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The cine lens linked is most likely to be similar (if not the same) as the other Cinors mentioned.
    Well it looks like very different in size and design than the black one you have, no?
    Apart from covering the all sensor, which is a big advantage, do you find the f:0.95 Berthiot to be a better performer than the Angy ? (I know it's a difficult and subjective matter...)

    Cheers

  22. #22
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    If the Angie ring is smooth to rotate it works ok. The ring is not that close to the body. The lens is not 'easy' to repair but your in France so I'm sure you can find someone! I'd say your sample would go for $500 usd??

    The berthoit (as I understand?) has the same image circle(?) as the other design. You can see the difference between the two in Vivek's posted examples! I'm wondering if the ebay example would require some modification just like Vivek's sample.

    The bokeh is different and unique for starters.

  23. #23
    valtof
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Thanks Milapse,

    Of course, living in Paris, I know some serious guy to do this kind of job and anyway the seller is supposed to do it. Glad that you confirm it can work well if everything is in good state.

    Quote Originally Posted by milapse View Post
    The bokeh is different and unique for starters.
    What do you mean ?

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by valtof View Post
    Thanks Vivek,


    I think you have one exemplar ot this Angy f:0.95 type M1.
    The one I prefer in the Type M2. It is a different design altogether. The weight, size, handling and the performance is very different than the type M1 lens.

    The Cinor 25/0.95 (my sample. similar to what milapse shows) doe not have the slightly recessed front element of the cine lens. So, I can not confirm about the image circle. The one you link is the cine lens. The ones discussed are made for CCTV lens use. The apertures and the focus of this lens are not calibrated.

    My sample of the Cinor 25/0.95 does cover the whole frame at infinity, even wide open.

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...



    Angenieux 25/0.95 Type M2 @f/2 (cropped) at 0.5m. The reds are brilliantly rendered.

  26. #26
    valtof
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I'm a bit confused about the Berthiot Cinor f:0.95 / 25mm currently on sale on eBay, I already mentioned :
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190307925639
    According to the seller, the lens is supposed to be 2 1/2'' long by 1 1/2'' diameter.
    On the photo bellow, if I am not mistaken, it would make the screw mount approximately 16mm, which is far bellow 25mm.
    Is this a c-mount lens or... ??
    Did I miss something ?

  27. #27
    valtof
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Just for fun

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    valtof: See: http://www.bolexcollector.com/lenses/50berthiot.html

    There was only a c-mount 25/0.95 lens, AFAIK. It should be a c-mount. Check with the seller to confirm.

    Yeah, imagine mounting even a small Navitar/Senko 25/0.95 on that mythical Olympus m4/3rds camera!

  29. #29
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by valtof View Post
    I'm a bit confused about the Berthiot Cinor f:0.95 / 25mm currently on sale on eBay, I already mentioned :
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190307925639
    According to the seller, the lens is supposed to be 2 1/2'' long by 1 1/2'' diameter.
    On the photo bellow, if I am not mistaken, it would make the screw mount approximately 16mm, which is far bellow 25mm.
    Is this a c-mount lens or... ??
    Did I miss something ?
    I wondered about that, too -- in fact, I had a bid in on it, but have been priced out of the market, and now I'm not going to try to up my bid because I'm not sure what's being advertised!

    My suspicion, based on the tiny size of the rear cap pictured, is that this lens is a D-mount (5/8 inch diameter.) Since it's labeled "for Bolex," this means its natural habitat would have been on the H-8 or B-8 camera models, where it would have been a mild tele lens; "normal" focal length for 8mm cameras was around 13mm.

    It's possible that Berthiot just took the same optics used in its C-mount 25/0.95 and re-mounted them with the smaller D mount, in which case it might be possible to use the lens by removing the rear mount flange (which would otherwise cause severe vignetting, I suspect) and finding some other way to attach it. Then again, maybe not!

    With so many unknowns, I've decided to stay away and leave it for the Bolex collectors... but maybe someone else here is more adventurous!

    UPDATE: Oops, wrote this before I read Vivek's post above; I'll defer to his knowledge of Berthiotology and give up my idea that this lens might have been manufactured in a D mount. Then again... doesn't the finish of the rear tube look a bit different from the rest of the lens? Could some third party have removed the C mount and substituted a D mount after the fact...? (The H-8 was a very high-end camera... basically a double-8 version of the H-16... so I can imagine someone caring enough to have this done so it could be used on his/her H-8.)

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I looked at all the other stuff that seller was offering and it does appear to lean towards a D-mount (8mm).

    The filter thread on my c-mount cinor (similar to the picture shown by milapse), however, compares favorably with that listing.

    Confusion.

    Yeah, Ranger, we have to keep editing our posts!
    Last edited by Vivek; 20th May 2009 at 14:57. Reason: as usual, missed typing a conjunction.;):o

  31. #31
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Yup, I went back and looked at his other listings. He's selling his dad's old H-8 and its lenses and accessories, so presumably all of them would be in D mounts.

    He notes in his item description that Dad was a teacher and used the camera to film high school football games and school plays, so you can see why he would have wanted an f/0.95 lens!

    I still wonder how he got the SOM in a D mount. The more I look at the picture, the more it looks like an after-the-fact conversion. Take a close look at the rear barrel -- you can see what look like setscrew marks, which might be where the original C-mount flange attached. Probably a lot of interesting family and technical history behind this lot...

  32. #32
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yeah, imagine mounting even a small Navitar/Senko 25/0.95 on that mythical Olympus m4/3rds camera!
    And then imagine holding the dratted thing at arm's length and trying to focus it on the non-eye-level LCD!

    Hope Olympus has something clever in mind to get around that -- after all, as reported in a previous exchange, their boss said the sardine-tin camera was a bit "dasai" (untranslatable idiomatic word apparently meaning something along the lines of crude/unpolished/clunky/dorky) so presumably the final "can" will be different from this...

  33. #33
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The filter thread on my c-mount cinor (similar to the picture shown by milapse), however, compares favorably with that listing.
    It struck me as an odd size from the beginning. My first impression was that it was closer to 50mm in diameter because of that mount... I'm laying my bet on 'remounted'. The proportion of that mount and flange is way out of wack if it is in fact 1 1/2" in diameter (38mm ish). Totally makes sense that someone would want a super fast medium tele on their 8mm bolex for something like fall football under lights...
    Last edited by milapse; 21st May 2009 at 05:39.

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    $50/- flat rate shipping charges for overseas!

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I did not bid and the end price was good (for the buyer).

    It occurred to me (late, very late) that the lens could have been sporting a simple D to C-mount adapter.

    Perhaps the buyer could enlighten us if that was the case.

  36. #36
    seb33
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post


    Navitar Version II (Senko, etc) whole frame @f/0.95, ISO400, 1/20s. This lens does not have the simple barrel distortion of the Navitar Version I, slightly less bright and has a slight mustache distortion at longer distances.

    I have another that has f/0.85 engraved instead of f/0.95 but looks/behaves identically to the Navitar II. Both I would rate the aperture at f/1.1 than f/0.95 or the very optimistic f/0.85.

    The SOM-Berthiot 25/0.95 is very special. According to my count, it has at least one aspherical (benefits of the 1 Euro lens and the process of reconstruction)element if not two.
    Could you post a picture of your Navitar ? Thank You.
    Do you have to adapt it to fit to the C mount adapter ?

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    That was taken with a lens with no name. Presumably that comes badged Senko (the Navitar also came with no name and was boxed similarly).

    While the Navitar needs modification of the rear to achieve infinity, the Senko is a straight fit on the RJ c-mount adapter.

    To add to the confusion, both have 40.5mm filter threads.

    (I will see if I have any snaps of the lenses and post them If I do).

  38. #38
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    Exclamation Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That was taken with a lens with no name. Presumably that comes badged Senko (the Navitar also came with no name and was boxed similarly).

    While the Navitar needs modification of the rear to achieve infinity, the Senko is a straight fit on the RJ c-mount adapter.

    To add to the confusion, both have 40.5mm filter threads.

    (I will see if I have any snaps of the lenses and post them If I do).
    Yes please thank you to post a picture of your Senko

    Is that this one ?
    Last edited by seb33; 23rd November 2009 at 10:09.

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    That is the one. IIRC, someone posted that image a while ago and I did a +ve ID.

  40. #40
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Why am I the only one to think of this?
    At least, I didn't read through the entire topic, so I might be wrong. But is there any particular reason why none of you seem to have thought about using a focusing lever, like the ones typically used on medium-format cameras? Someone has to have made some small enough to fit these petite objects. I think that would easily remove any issues most of you have concerning the stiff focusing of these smaller lenses.

    Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
    ShingoshiDao

  41. #41
    MelanieC
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I would be very interested if a focusing lever was indeed available, as I'm currently borrowing an Angenieux that I like very much and am considering purchasing but am somewhat put off by the difficulty in turning the focusing ring because it is so close to the camera body.

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    you can make a focusing lever by using a plastic lock tie -- the same as the police use for handcuffing. These are available in black and are tied around the ring that you want to move -- place it so that you can still read the markings on the lens.

    Paul

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Very instructive thread. What do you think of the Schneider xenon 25 0,95 ?
    My copy has the internal ND spot filter.
    Sergio


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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    wow that is nice!!!

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Thanks, effect related to 1 cm DOF.
    Sergio

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Hi Vivek. what adapter did you use to mount the Navitar 25mm .95 to the GF1 ? Cheers!

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    The current RJ adapter for the Senko 25/0.95.

    The Navitar needs some machining so that it can focus to infinity. This has nothing to do with the adapter but the rear of that lens hitting the sensor baffle (no such worries with a Senko).

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Hi Vivek. I am buying a Navitar soon. I am hoping it has 16:9 coverage for video without vignetting. Would you mind posting a description about how to adapt the Navitar ?

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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    Y.B. Hudson III has posted on that modification.

    Using search function might yield the exact answer (it does work here).

    It is in one of the posts here: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/search...archid=1168828

  50. #50
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    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Re: 25/F0.95 party...

    I think it was this post.
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...837#post220837
    But Hudson probably forgot to post the howto.

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