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Thread: T/S on G1 a test shot

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    T/S on G1 a test shot

    I have been hesitant, very hesitant to try T/S lenses on the G1 as the focusing (with a T/S) lens is very very difficult.

    Anyway, I tried one today (a 24mm experimental T/S lens). Here is a sample (this is a crop).



    I can confirm again that IME, a Nikon D40x works better when it comes to focusing and getting the shot as I want it. This sample shot is a fluke.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have been hesitant, very hesitant to try T/S lenses on the G1 as the focusing (with a T/S) lens is very very difficult.

    Anyway, I tried one today (a 24mm experimental T/S lens). Here is a sample (this is a crop).
    I can confirm again that IME, a Nikon D40x works better when it comes to focusing and getting the shot as I want it. This sample shot is a fluke.
    I don't know about flukes , but that's the kind of street image that most of us strive for. I bet CB shot a lot of flukes too!
    What's a T/S lens?

    Keith

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Thanks, Keith.

    T/S = Tilt/Shift (as it is set-up now, it has more tilt and less shift but it is correctable in the post).

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Thanks, Keith.

    T/S = Tilt/Shift (as it is set-up now, it has more tilt and less shift but it is correctable in the post).
    I should know that - there is a fair amount of discussion on T/S in the forum - but you are using it in a non-static situation. It works well because of the unusual focus, but can use it for spontaneous shots? Should I get one?

    Keith

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Keith, It is difficult to use as in the shot shown ( I would have liked to have had the whole bicycle in focus- missed it).

    Here is one (a snap that I am very satisfied with) made with a 28mm T/S on a D300.


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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    There is a quite good chart for Canon T/S that may be helpful--at least it gives a good jumping off place to start for tilt/swing--primarily for the 24, 45 (which I have) and 90.
    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=18434382

    Shift, of course, is visual but with the 5D I use a grid screen which is helpful. If one is going to do selective focus, then I found that it helped to experiment with aperture, degree of tilt/swing (which basically is the opposite of what one normally does for increased perception of DOF)--the wedge of focus increases with stopping down the aperture--and focus is visual--MF. With the Canons you can rotate that 'wedge' too. Its a really fun lens if you like to take your time, have a reasonable VF--and have worked with it enough to know how to control it. I always liked Mark Tucker's control of selective focus --I was going to link to some of his Chilean, German or Jack Daniels Distillery photos, but it seems that he's changed his site yet again.

    I would love to be able to use my T/S with the G1 MF assist--but there is no EF to m4/3rds mount. Should be WAY better than either using the 5D VF or an anglefinder C. Vivek--you say this is experimental--what lens did you use to create it? Nice.

    Diane
    Last edited by Diane B; 30th May 2009 at 18:02.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Keith, It is difficult to use as in the shot shown ( I would have liked to have had the whole bicycle in focus- missed it).
    I'm so glad you missed it - it brings the attention right onto the cyclist. I love this picture. Let's see it in B & W

    Keith

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    There is a quite good chart for Canon T/S that may be helpful--at least it gives a good jumping off place to start for tilt/swing--primarily for the 24, 45 (which I have) and 90.
    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=18434382

    Shift, of course, is visual but with the 5D I use a grid screen which is helpful. If one is going to do selective focus, then I found that it helped to experiment with aperture, degree of tilt/swing (which basically is the opposite of what one normally does for increased perception of DOF)--the wedge of focus increases with stopping down the aperture--and focus is visual--MF. With the Canons you can rotate that 'wedge' too. Its a really fun lens if you like to take your time, have a reasonable VF--and have worked with it enough to know how to control it. I always liked Mark Tucker's control of selective focus --I was going to link to some of his Chilean, German or Jack Daniels Distillery photos, but it seems that he's changed his site yet again.

    I would love to be able to use my T/S with the G1 MF assist--but there is no EF to m4/3rds mount. Should be WAY better than either using the 5D VF or an anglefinder C. Vivek--you say this is experimental--what lens did you use to create it? Nice.

    Diane
    Diane, There is a Canon EOS to m4/3 adapter, but no aperture control so you can only shoot wide open. Probably not very useful for what you want to do with the T/S lens.

    Carl

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Carl

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Diane, There is a Canon EOS to m4/3 adapter, but no aperture control so you can only shoot wide open. Probably not very useful for what you want to do with the T/S lens.

    Carl
    the only problem with that is unless you use the older TS 35 you have no iris control so its wide open or wide open.


    If the adjustments are well thought out (and you get the hang of it) I found that using my TS-E lenses on my EOS camera was intuitive and fast.

    I used them without a tripod many many times. The best part is that noone looks at the image and goes "ohh ... yeah, gosh that's TS".

    but then I like my tools to be subtle.

    Would you pick the tilt in this?



    looking at the handrail to the right its blury, but to the left it goes to infinity. If the post behind the rail was not blury then the rail corner would not stand out as much. On a print it really jumps off the paper.

    to me, not having tilt control on a lens is like having a fixed focus camera. If you never knew you could control the focus you'd probably think it was great and not a limitation (think box brownie).

    actually not everyone seems to know how to use focus anyway. Perhaps thats the appeal of compact small sensor digital?

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    I thought I'd do a quickie with my "tilt adaptor" system for my G1



    using this "rough" adaptor (made from a bicycle tube)



    everything was hand held and works fast ... (ohh shot is f2.8)

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have been hesitant, very hesitant to try T/S lenses on the G1 as the focusing (with a T/S) lens is very very difficult.
    pah .. takes a little practice is all ... most people think focusing is really really difficult (if they've only ever used AF cameras of point n shoot).

    once you think how its working its easier :-)

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Hi Vivek

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have been hesitant, very hesitant to try T/S lenses on the G1 as the focusing (with a T/S) lens is very very difficult.
    ...
    This sample shot is a fluke.
    well, fluke or not its a nice feeling shot :-) It inspired me to take my camera along on a walk with my wife through the local forest (and she did say it was a slow walk too ; - )

    I took my munged up adaptor (which is hard to work with as it doesn't have enough flexibility without letting light in or pressing my face with the camera too hard) and got this one that I liked



    I'm also interested to know how are you doing your adaptor too ...

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Keith, Here is one in B&W- has the bicycle (or the front wheel) in focus as well.



    an easy kitchen shot (1/8s handheld, there was shake).



    Pellicle, I use several T/S lenses. Though I do not have a whole lot of experience (~2 years), I do know how to work them. It is a breeze for static subjects.

    Anyway, what I wanted share here was that the tiny sensor in m4/3rds (even compared to the APS-C of Nikon) makes it really very difficult since even minuscule movement brings about a very dramatic effect.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Diane, There is a Canon EOS to m4/3 adapter, but no aperture control so you can only shoot wide open. Probably not very useful for what you want to do with the T/S lens.

    Carl
    Canon also made a 35mm T/S in the FD mount which would allow for manual aperture control.

    Given that FD mount lenses are cheaper than dirt, it could be a good way to go. Olympus all so made a manual T/S which Sean Reid writes about in his Reid Reports.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Olympus all so made a manual T/S which Sean Reid writes about in his Reid Reports.

    Either Reid did not write correctly or you misread. Olympus never made a T/S lens. Only shift lenses.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Either Reid did not write correctly or you misread. Olympus never made a T/S lens. Only shift lenses.
    I miss remembered the article. You are correct. He compared the Zuiko 25 and 35 shift lenses to the Canon 25 T/S.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Sorry to nitpick, John. There is a Zuiko 24mm shift lens and there are Canon 24mm TS-E lenses (2 versions).

    Zuiko 24mm http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~rwe..._f35_shift.pdf

    Many say (I do not have personal experience) that this is the best 24mm perspective control lens for 35mm format.

    I would love to get hold of one.

    BTW, with the new PC-E lenses from Nikon (http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Ni...e-Control.page) it is possible to control the aperture manually (something for the owners to figure out).

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Nitpicking is good. It improves the quality of discourse; correct facts are important.

    I'm a nitpicker to.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    HiYa

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Pellicle, I use several T/S lenses. Though I do not have a whole lot of experience (~2 years), I do know how to work them. It is a breeze for static subjects.

    Anyway, what I wanted share here was that the tiny sensor in m4/3rds (even compared to the APS-C of Nikon) makes it really very difficult since even minuscule movement brings about a very dramatic effect.
    yeah ... I considered it a fair bit before clicking submit because I didn't want to seem like I was being a nitpickin pain in the a55.

    I understand what you mean about the diffuculties of engaging and using it (I often sigh when using my 4x5 camera as it has base tilt and center swings. I really much prefer center everything but then I'd have to carry a Sinar and my Toho is under 2Kg with a lens so I'm willing to accept compromise).

    I think Canon nailed their tilt mechanism very well and the geared adjustment really really helped make it easier to use (not to mention it was center tilt). Imagine trying to focus with a push pull arrangement and no geared helical thread.

    At the risk of "teaching granma to suck eggs" I find that a "predictive zone" approach works well for using tilt. Just like I used prefocus on a spot and wait till the race car got there when I had manual focus lenses I used the same principle when using the TS lenses on my 35mm EOS.

    I'll get motivated this week and put a 'tilt tutorial' on my blog with some video. I'll try to record from the ground glass of my 4x5 with my digicam as I don't have a G1H to make video with ;-)

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Canon also made a 35mm T/S in the FD mount which would allow for manual aperture control.

    Given that FD mount lenses are cheaper than dirt,
    I guess you've not followed any auctions or checked out KEH on that item. The TS 35 is still a $500 item ... unless that's "cheaper than dirt" for your budget.

    I don't really find 35mm a useful focal length for Tilt but on a 4/3rds camera its a 70mm angle of view so it might be nicer. Still that's a real dear 70mm lens

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Pellicle, No worries at all!

    Since you started (separate thread) with a T/S adapter and not "lensbaby" (epitomy of crappola), I understood that you were not gasbagging.

    Have you considered the Mirex adapter (you would still need to modify the mounts- front and rear)? While it is still not cheap, looks to me (I would love to get one someday) to be very decent and useful.

    http://www.mirex-adapter.de/tilt_shift_adapter.htm

    Yeah the Canon 35 TS isn't exactly cheap.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Canon also made a 35mm T/S in the FD mount which would allow for manual aperture control.

    Given that FD mount lenses are cheaper than dirt, it could be a good way to go. Olympus all so made a manual T/S which Sean Reid writes about in his Reid Reports.
    That's the one I've mentioned several times. KEH has 3 of them on their site--relatively reasonably priced (but nothing like the other f/2.8 FD lenses so I have a hard time considering it)--I think all of them are graded EX. One only needs an FD to m4/3rds adaptor, which I have. I just am not sure if I want to spend the money for a 35 (which translates to 70 FOV) when I know I like the 45 for the 5D. I actually like 45mm on FF--using it for stitching--either with shift--or normally--gives a great file. It works well with the 1.4x converter too--little degradation, so that brings you to about 63mm on FF. Tilt/swing is very good with the 45--I use it all the time.

    I like the Canon T/S. I considered a Hartblei at one time---because you can change orientation of tilt to shift without tools (simply rotation I believe), but after renting the Canon 24 I decided the 45 was the one that worked best for me unless I bought a second. The new 24 (and I understand the 17) are making a lot of folks happy, it seems.

    Carl--I agree--the EOS to m4/3rds just doesn't offer anything Without manual iris control, the T/S loses much of its ability to be used creatively.

    Diane
    Last edited by Diane B; 31st May 2009 at 07:42.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    HiYa

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Have you considered the Mirex adapter (you would still need to modify the mounts- front and rear)? While it is still not cheap, looks to me (I would love to get one someday) to be very decent and useful.
    another one out of the woodwork. Seems that they're all oriented towards medium format lenses onto 35mm (and why not). The arax one I mentioned (here) seems to be promising. IF they get it going onto m4/3 it'll be in my bag as quick as "two shakes of a lambs tail". Price seems ok too at US$129 too ... the only grumble I have is that it will tilt in the most un-friendly manner.

    I'm communicating with a fellow who makes adaptors for m4/3 and (among other things) 35mm lenses. He seems to be quite interested and we've been talking about what tilt angles are required and what mechanism will be best / easiest to make.

    I'm hopeful

    meantime I'm thinking I'll rig something up myself if I can.

    On a different note I'm quite surprised just how many people here are using FD mounts ... not that I have any grumble about Canon lenses mind you.

    I'll be putting my FD's onto eBay soon cos I just happen to prefer the way the Olympus ones work (ok and I have a soft spot for an OM-1 too).

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    just saw this on the adaptor group on flickr



    cute, I loved it!

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    Re: Nitpicking

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Nitpicking is good. It improves the quality of discourse; correct facts are important.

    I'm a nitpicker to.
    Nitpicker to what? (Sorry, couldn't resist) ;-)

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    HiYa



    The arax one I mentioned (here) seems to be promising.
    Hi back, I have been using one on Nikon bodies for ~2 years now. It has been permanently modified to take an S-Planar 120mm f/5.6 (it was a high res. enlarging lens) planted in a 105mm Micro Nikkor focus mount.

    Here is a sample (D40x, full tilt):



    The tilt there is very usable. I would not want to put that on the G1 though.

    Yeah, I have seen the pillow cover contraptions. Those people have no style.

    The 85mm f/2.8 PC Nikkor is a swell lens as well (I use one on Nikons). All these are just too big for the G1.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    The main problem is: with the G1 the sensor is much too small.

    If you use fullframe you have much more opportunities.

    Attachment 17103

    This is an example with Nikon D3 and Nikon PC-E TS 24/3,5

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by S.P. View Post
    The main problem is: with the G1 the sensor is much too small.
    for what?

    If you use fullframe you have much more opportunities.

    This is an example with Nikon D3 and Nikon PC-E TS 24/3,5
    more opportunites for what? If your aim in using tilt is to make images like the above with extrem out of focus perhaps. But for using tilt to bring control over focus I disagree. I have posted two images in this thread already demonstrating the control I can get with a G1 and using 35mm lenses.

    I use 4x5 inch format (much larger than the tiddly little minature cameras yet I don't find that TS-E lenses on full frame were substantial limitations and I'm really keen to get more precision in control of the lenses I'm using on the G1 with some sort of frame to hold the lens.

    Given the movement required to focus and defocus lessens with shorter focal lenghts and the amount of coverage will increase as well I think that the small sensor of the G1 is acceptable.

    can you please explain why the sensor is too small for use with tilt?

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by S.P. View Post
    The main problem is: with the G1 the sensor is much too small.

    If you use fullframe you have much more opportunities.
    I agree and that is the essence of this whole thread (atleast from my point of view). Did you pull out the wrong example?

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    ok ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Here is a sample (D40x, full tilt):
    ...
    The tilt there is very usable. I would not want to put that on the G1 though.
    ...
    The 85mm f/2.8 PC Nikkor is a swell lens as well (I use one on Nikons). All these are just too big for the G1.
    I agree ... the longer focal lengths don't show effects as strongly as the shorter ones. I've not got anything longer than 50mm that I can put onto the G1 at the moment. I'm more interested in stuff between 24 and 50 for tilting and < 20mm for shift effects. The sweet little lenses for the Voightlander L camera like a Helia 12mm for instance :-)

    still ... I think that the 4/3rds is past its sweet spot when you start to get shorter than 20mm anyway. I think a 5D with an Olympus 21mm and a TS-E 24 would make about as light a traveling companion as I could forgo for wide (and be truly happy to leave the 4x5 at home)

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    I have the CV 15/4.5. As is, it is fine for me. Have not thought about applying movements with it. Will give it a try (same hesitations of tiny sensor apply)

    This lens' size is pretty good for the G1.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have the CV 15/4.5. As is, it is fine for me....
    This lens' size is pretty good for the G1.
    Ohh ... why am I poor right now!

    so many nice optics happening.

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Its been interesting to me that all the samples have been selective focus. Is it because you feel that using a T/S in a more traditional way isn't useful with a 4/3rds sensor (or maybe not possible with the experimental lens. its really working more like a Lensbaby--but with a more usual blur-- than a T/S that I'm used to).

    Pellicle--there is some information about the new 17 f/4 TS and 24 f/3.5II lens here http://www.bobatkins.com/photography...tse_17_24.html and some samples from the 17 f/4 here http://www.pbase.com/georgh/17mm_tse_test
    Talk about pricey LOL. The one thing I would love is the ability to use tilt/swing or shift in any orientation, but I still prefer the 45 (which hasn't been upgraded) since I can easily stitch or do pano for wider (except for interiors).

    I've given up on using movements with the G1. I don't think there is really any interest in it for many using 4/3rds cameras so its just not going to happen unless you make your own as Vivek has.

    Diane

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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Hi Diane

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    Its been interesting to me that all the samples have been selective focus. Is it because you feel that using a T/S in a more traditional way isn't useful with a 4/3rds sensor
    gosh, well I thought I did an ok job with the flower bed example I picked earlier ... I usually use the method to increase focus without needing more than f8 rather than selective focus ... for an example from full frame 35mm with the TS-E90 (which needs all the DoF help it can get)



    on a larger print those ferns in the middle really stand out and you don't seem to notice the background at their location on the film is blurry. Move up a little and the background comes into focus so it all looks good.

    I'm wanting to do the same with the G1 ... but I must admit with wide angles there is so little out of focus that I don't mind using it for focus selection too.

    Pellicle--there is some information about the new 17 f/4 TS and 24 ..
    Talk about pricey LOL.
    I know ... If I hadn't sold my 24 and 90 back 2 or so years ago (and I could afford a 5D now) then I'd probably be satisfied with that setup. But on the 10D it didn't make sence (in terms of I didn't like what the angle of view had become).

    However I did still feel it was all just that little heavy for backpacking in 30degC plus conditions. I keep thinking my G1 and on occasions 4x5 camera will do that role (like when I take the 4x4 truck with me :- ) but here I am fiddle farting about trying to get movements on my G1 to get the best of both worlds.



    The one thing I would love is the ability to use tilt/swing or shift in any orientation,
    well people (fellow 4x5 photogrpahers) said that to me when I was using the TS-E on my 35mm camera, but I somehow never found it an issue.

    but I still prefer the 45 (which hasn't been upgraded) since I can easily stitch or do pano for wider (except for interiors).

    I've given up on using movements with the G1. I don't think there is really any interest in it for many using 4/3rds cameras so its just not going to happen unless you make your own as Vivek has.
    don't be so sure ... I've had interesting (ongoing) conversations with jinfinance who makes very nice m4/3 adaptors ... heck if more people expressed interest in a cheap adaptor I'm sure he'd be more interested in making one.

    Then there's araxfoto to be considered ... they've suggested interest too

  35. #35
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    Re: T/S on G1 a test shot

    Ah, Pellicle, forgot those since I was now on the 2nd page LOL. Sorry.

    I agree that orientation isn't generally an issue--maybe never with teh 45, but it would still be neat to have.

    I'd like it too for the G1--not having to carry the 5D system to have T/S would be terrific. Perhaps I should email him also about adaptor.

    Diane

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