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Thread: Olympus picture leak

  1. #151
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    I don't know what the comment meant, but that sure looks nice to me. :-)

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Actually, this could be very sad. Perhaps, it will make the G1 owners appreciate its features even more....
    Two completely different cameras.

    The blurry black lens, is that the kit zoom?
    One could make an assumption like that ... ;-)

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Two completely different cameras.
    How so (other than the brand name)?

    If this is going to be an optical view finder cam with liveview (and no swivel screen), it would be like my modified E-410. I took the IR cut/AA filter stack from my E-410. It is optically (mirror reflex view) blind as a result but I can focus in UV or Visible or IR using the live view feature. Very restricting compared to the G1 and would be of limited use (to me atleast).

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Y.B.Hudson III View Post
    yehh...that's [email protected] going to be handy for the ultra fast manual focus crowd...
    Yeah, it just might.

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    How so (other than the brand name)?

    If this is going to be an optical view finder cam with liveview (and no swivel screen), it would be like my modified E-410. I took the IR cut/AA filter stack from my E-410. It is optically (mirror reflex view) blind as a result but I can focus in UV or Visible or IR using the live view feature. Very restricting compared to the G1 and would be of limited use (to me atleast).
    I don't know what your modified E-410 has to do with the difference between this Olympus and the G1.

    They're entirely different in what they present to the user. The Panasonic is in essence a very small and light, all electronic imaging system, camera with state of the art electronic viewfinder and a small but growing complement of matched system lenses. A replacement for the smaller class of SLR cameras with some interesting advantages.

    This new Olympus is a handily sized interchangeable lens viewfinder camera with TTL viewing through a fixed LCD screen, and again a small complement of system lenses. Reportedly, in body IS is included (we'll know for sure next week, eh?).

    What the two camera's share is the Micro Four Thirds lens mount and control specification, which means that they can share lenses and lens accessories. They're also both quite comparable performers when it comes to resolution and image capture quality.

    Where they differ is in all the aspects of practical use. I love the fact that Olympus might be releasing their camera with both the de rigeur little slow zoom AND with a nice wide-normal prime and matching optical viewfinder for those who prefer that way of working. And that so outfitted, it looks like it can easily be pocketed in jacket or cargo pants pockets.

    Two entirely different cameras. The fact that they can share lenses is the big plus. Choice is good.

  6. #156
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    I don't know what your modified E-410 has to do with the difference between this Olympus and the G1.
    If you follow the post from YBH III on it would make sense.

    To explain further- without an EVF (or a swivel TFT) that the G1 has, any other m4/3rds cam will have limited utility when it comes to focus, in particular.

    On my modified E-410, I can use the liveview to focus. The reflex finder is disabled (or not useful). So, any camera that has no EVF but has liveview on a fixed TFT screen is comparable as to how focus/framing can be achieved.

    Yes, I will be able to use the 17/2.8 (or any other prime, I have no need for any zooms) on my G1.

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If you follow the post from YBH III on it would make sense.
    I don't follow that... what is "YBH III" ???

    To explain further- without an EVF (or a swivel TFT) that the G1 has, any other m4/3rds cam will have limited utility when it comes to focus, in particular.

    On my modified E-410, I can use the liveview to focus. The reflex finder is disabled (or not useful). So, any camera that has no EVF but has liveview on a fixed TFT screen is comparable as to how focus/framing can be achieved.
    But they won't be as small and/or pocketable as the little Oly. That changes things, for me anyway. The handling dynamics of a camera do influence what you do with it.

    I'm happy to just disagree on this ... it's purely a matter of my opinion vs your opinion. I see the G1 and the little Oly as two entirely different cameras that complement each other AND provide the capability to use the same lenses. It's simply how I see things. If you see it differently, viva la diffrence or whatever.

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    the little Oly. That changes things, for me anyway. The handling dynamics of a camera do influence what you do with it.
    For me too - I've no need of the G1, but this looks right up my street.
    let's hope the viewfinder has a HUD showing focus confirmation etc.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    We shall see how it is when it hits the streets. This time around, unlike the G1 purchase (which was a pleasant surprise) I am prepared as to what to look for in the cam that would suit my needs.

    I am already sold on the 17/2.8 and the rumored flash (that I expect to be suitably sized).

    P.S. YBH III refers to the poster Y.B.Hudson III

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't know what your modified E-410 has to do with the difference between this Olympus and the G1.

    They're entirely different in what they present to the user. The Panasonic is in essence a very small and light, all electronic imaging system, camera with state of the art electronic viewfinder and a small but growing complement of matched system lenses. A replacement for the smaller class of SLR cameras with some interesting advantages.

    This new Olympus is a handily sized interchangeable lens viewfinder camera with TTL viewing through a fixed LCD screen, and again a small complement of system lenses. Reportedly, in body IS is included (we'll know for sure next week, eh?).

    What the two camera's share is the Micro Four Thirds lens mount and control specification, which means that they can share lenses and lens accessories. They're also both quite comparable performers when it comes to resolution and image capture quality.

    Where they differ is in all the aspects of practical use. I love the fact that Olympus might be releasing their camera with both the de rigeur little slow zoom AND with a nice wide-normal prime and matching optical viewfinder for those who prefer that way of working. And that so outfitted, it looks like it can easily be pocketed in jacket or cargo pants pockets.

    Two entirely different cameras. The fact that they can share lenses is the big plus. Choice is good.
    Personally I think Olympus would be crazy to not offer wide and fast primes. Lots and lots of G1 owners would flock to buy them (thus Olympus cashes in on the installed base of G1's) and more than a few will opt for the Oly body as well. Quickest way I can see for Oly sales to really skyrocket.

    JMHO

    Woody

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Agreed Woody, maybe a m4/3rds version of the zd 9-18 f4-5.6? Or zd 11-22 f2.8-3.5

    The zd 9-18 is already small and light for a 4/3rds lens.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Has anyone mentioned how much that front view looks like a contax G series?

    As for the fast wide primes - I remember reading somewhere that if you're making wide lenses, it's as easy to make them into zooms.

    Whilst I'm absolutely certain there needs to be some small lenses with this setup, it seems to me that fast AND wide is going to mean bigger, and the times one actually needs a fast wide angle lens are . . . well, not that frequent.

    I'd say that what they need is small, high quality lenses rather than necessarily fast ones.

    but then, what do I know

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Personally I think Olympus would be crazy to not offer wide and fast primes. Lots and lots of G1 owners would flock to buy them (thus Olympus cashes in on the installed base of G1's) and more than a few will opt for the Oly body as well. Quickest way I can see for Oly sales to really skyrocket.

    JMHO

    Woody
    I invested in 4/3rds fairly early on with the expectation that some high quality fast primes would be forthcoming. Other than a macro lens, Olympus released one pretty ordinary prime, the 25/2.8. This lens was dull and rendered like a cheap zoom. The new micro body looks great but I won't be tempted until I see some decent primes.

    Vincent

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'd say that what they need is small, high quality lenses rather than necessarily fast ones.
    I've been quite impressed at just how much DoF I get with a 12.5mm lens at f2

    even in a regular scene (not a looming in close up)



    so I'd be quite pleased to see something in the 12~15mm range as f2

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    agree with jonoslack - smaller slower and more affordable primes are what the EP-1 needs to establish it as a system.

    Just look at lenses from any other manufacturer (even compare the 25mm pancake v the panleica 25/1.4) and you will see that gaining an extra stop or more always seems to involve an increase in size and cost that is disproprotionate to the advantages gained for most photographers.

    Olympus work with the same rules of physics as everybody else, though with the OM lenses they have a history of making things small

    With SLR's fast lenses were probably more about getting the brightest view in the viewfinder and bragging rights for marketing purposes. They also were developed in a time where shooting at ISO 400 and above was the exception rather than the norm.

    give me an EP-1 with 6MP of D700 like high ISO quality and sharp fast focussing 2.8 lenses at 14, 17, 25, 42 and 60 - I could live very happily with that

    cheers

    kevin

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    Re: give me an EP-1 with ...

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    give me an EP-1 with 6MP of D700 like high ISO quality and sharp fast focussing 2.8 lenses at 14, 17, 25, 42 and 60 - I could live very happily with that
    That makes two of us ... ;-)

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    Re: give me an EP-1 with ...

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    That makes two of us ... ;-)
    Actually, I reckon it makes 63,465 of us

    Just as an example of prices and sizes - silly, but informative, three current leica 50mm lenses:

    1. Noctilux: f0.95 700gm 5375

    2. summilux f1.4 275gm 1850

    3. summarit f2.5 230gm 635


    24 mm lenses

    1. summilux f1.4 500gm 3162

    2. elmarit f2.8 290 gm 2000

    3. elma f3.8 260gm 1146

    Clearly, you get what you pay for, but with m/43, with image stabilisation and the increased dof, I know which I'd rather have (and which I'd be more likely to buy). . . .

    (let's be honest, if you want wafer thin depth of field then you shouldn't be looking at 4/3 at all!).

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    agree with jonoslack - smaller slower and more affordable primes are what the EP-1 needs to establish it as a system.
    I'd also rather small slower primes because we already gain some lower ISO due to OIS.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    give me an EP-1 with 6MP of D700 like high ISO quality and sharp fast focussing 2.8 lenses at 14, 17, 25, 42 and 60 - I could live very happily with that
    If only this camera had been released some years back before the megapixel race got us to 12Mpixels. Can I have sharp fast foccusing 2.8 lenses at 10.5, 14, 17, 20, 25, 42 and 60? Puleeeeze..

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Has anyone mentioned how much that front view looks like a contax G series?
    Ah, yes - I see what you mean Jono...

    Courtesy of http://harrysproshop.com/G2/g2.html

    That 35mm f2 looks nice by the way! would go great on the G1/E-P1

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Ah, yes - I see what you mean Jono...

    Courtesy of http://harrysproshop.com/G2/g2.html

    That 35mm f2 looks nice by the way! would go great on the G1/E-P1

    Cheers

    Brian
    Just don't even talk about it . . . I sold the complete set of these lenses last year for 900

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    When Olympus were in their prime... if you will excuse the pun...they had quite an extensive range of lenses as you can see here

    http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~rwe...lensposter.jpg

    to illustrate how even Olympus can't break the laws of physics here are some size comparisons showing how that extra stop costs in terms of size.

    As regards price... well i would have to dig deeper... but you can bet that price probably follows a similar trend as bulk.

    Cheers
    K
    Last edited by kevinparis; 15th November 2009 at 07:07.

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    agree with jonoslack - smaller slower and more affordable primes are what the EP-1 needs to establish it as a system.
    when you say slower, you mean what?

    I thought that around f2 was a good location (and f2.8 is around that)




    looking at my Compustar I don't think that its out of the question to increase the coverage a little (it is not after all covering 35mm frame in the examples posted above from the Olympus range) and so a 12, 13mm or 14mm f2.8 prime would not be out of the question either in physics or economics.

    least wise not as I see it.
    Last edited by pellicle; 13th June 2009 at 04:52.

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Ah, yes - I see what you mean Jono...

    Courtesy of http://harrysproshop.com/G2/g2.html

    That 35mm f2 looks nice by the way! would go great on the G1/E-P1

    Cheers

    Brian
    YES, and i loved mine soooo much. I was an idiot selling the complete kit
    I believe Oly will the enter the m43 market with 2 bodies. And the one with OVF will be mine... Money already prepared.....
    BTW: One guy said, dont know if it is true: m43 is capable to utilize even larger sensors than those now in use.... It is all about the flange back which is now much smaller than on 43 and allows OLY more flexibilty in sensorsizes...
    The Oly 43 flange back ( 38.85 i think ) was only choosen to give SIGMA and Co a transition path to adapt their Canon, Nikon gear easily to Oly 43

    But with m43 this need is gone.....
    Last edited by kweide; 13th June 2009 at 05:13.
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    pellicle

    when i said slower I was meaning slower than the 1.4 aperture that everyone seems to blindly lust after.

    1.4 would be wonderful... but not at the sacrifice of size and cost. I would rather be able to buy and carry around three f 2.8 lenses than bankrupt myself for an extra two stops of speed and only have one lens.

    K

    K

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    pellicle

    when i said slower I was meaning slower than the 1.4 aperture that everyone seems to blindly lust after.
    ok ... I hadn't been thinking that way (and since this seemed to be related to my statement) so I just wanted to clear it up.

    If any prime was slower than f4 then it may as well be a zoom in my view.

    :-)

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    Re: give me an EP-1 with ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    (let's be honest, if you want wafer thin depth of field then you shouldn't be looking at 4/3 at all!).
    I think you are exactly on the money there. I will pull out the 5D when I want that wafer thin DOF.

    I've found I'm happy enough with something in range of 35mm and up with f/2.8--for DOF. I've also found, somewhat seemingly non-intuitively--that I can handhold an MF lens at a slower shutter speed than I can my 5D (supposedly, a heavier, etc. camera is more 'stable'--I can almost always handhold 1/30s the 5D)---which makes it more adaptable with lower ISO, less fast lens than my 5D for low light--discounting very shallow DOF. Not sure why this is---but I find it over and over (without IS--the Oly will have body stabilization besides).

    OTOH--I also find that I almost never shoot totally wide open with the 5D--stop down some, so I'm not missing extreme shallow DOF as I thought I might--for the most part.

    Still, for now, the Oly m4/3rds doesn't really fit for me at this point--but I certainly am interested in the lenses--and may consider an Olympus m4/3rds down the line.

    Diane

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    If any prime was slower than f4 then it may as well be a zoom in my view.

    :-)
    Hi There - well, looking at the examples, it does seem that f2 is a good 'cut-off' and I quite agree, if it's f4 it may as well be a zoom. It's also worth mentioning that there isn't much IQ sacrifice in a WA being a zoom anyway - especially short ranges like the pana 7-14 for example.

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  28. #178
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    Re: give me an EP-1 with ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Just as an example of prices and sizes - silly, but informative, three current leica 50mm lenses:

    [omitted: silly but informative table showing that lenses get disproportionately heavier and more expensive as maximum aperture increases]

    Clearly, you get what you pay for, but with m/43, with image stabilisation and the increased dof, I know which I'd rather have (and which I'd be more likely to buy). . . .

    (let's be honest, if you want wafer thin depth of field then you shouldn't be looking at 4/3 at all!).
    I don't care about wafer-thin depth-of-field; I just want to be able to make indoor pictures of fast-moving subjects, and I don't see why I shouldn't be able to make them with a Micro Four Thirds camera.

    After all, if I've got to lug around weighty wide-aperture lenses, it would be nice to lighten the load by lugging a smaller, lighter camera body along with them.

    For the pictures linked above, I had to use a Nikon D300 -- and believe me, the difference vs. 4/3 in bag size and weight for body-plus-couple-of-lenses-plus-stuff is noticeable when you're trying to be mobile!

    I agree that wide-aperture, fixed-focal-length lenses don't sell as well as moderate-aperture "convenience" zooms, though, and for that reason I doubt that Olympus will be rolling out scads of them with the E-P 1... just wish somebody would...

  29. #179
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There - well, looking at the examples, it does seem that f2 is a good 'cut-off'
    f/2 was the cutoff on the Contax G series, which allowed most of the lenses to have the same filter size and kept the cost reasonable on both body and lens. f/1.4 would have required a higher degree of precision on the rangefinder system not to mention bigger, heavier, more expensive glass. They decided to leave the high speed optics to their only competitor, similar to how 4/3 should not try to compete with the full frame, 50/1.2 Canons, etc.

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    Re: give me an EP-1 with ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    I agree that wide-aperture, fixed-focal-length lenses don't sell as well as moderate-aperture "convenience" zooms, though, and for that reason I doubt that Olympus will be rolling out scads of them with the E-P 1... just wish somebody would...
    Oh - I think that of all cameras this one really does need some good fast primes . . . just not more than some good small primes!

    Mind you - Olympus make good zooms as well

    Just this guy you know

  31. #181
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    I thought Olympus was showcasing their new Micro Four Thirds camera worldwide next week, but since no one is talking about it here, maybe Korea is just one of the lucky markets to see this first?

    http://olympus.co.kr/Fun/Event/Progr...=1&bm_seq=1696

    Olympus has announced the Micro Four Thirds showcase event about 10 days ago and have been accepting invitation requests. The event takes place on 6/17. I assume the new camera will be demo'd in this event.

    To translate the content of the online poster:
    Micro Four Thirds Showcase
    An Opportunity to experience the Olympus Micro Four Thirds for the first time!

    Is Korea the only market doing this next week?

    -Ted

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    I agree with most here, but as well as some 2.8 wide primes, like 10, 14, there needs to be a portrait lens that is under 50 mm, like a 37 - 42 1.8 or even 2.0 as well as a normal lens that is faster than 2.8, like maybe a 25 2.0. Actually, the more I think about it, since I rarely carry anything longer than a 50 mm equivalent, the portrait lens could just as well be a 1.4, since it would spend most of the time at home anyway.

  33. #183
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    I like Clay's thinking. Ideally, a wide-aperture lens lineup for Micro 4/3 would include something wide, something normal-ish, a "portrait" lens, and something a bit longer than that. (If I look at the lenses I actually use on my G1, the 50/1.5 Nokton probably is at the top of the list.)

    A 12.5, a 20-25, a 35-ish, and a 50, all with apertures of f/1.8 or faster, would cover almost all my lens needs. Those of us who are using C-mount and M-mount lenses on our G1s know that reasonably compact lenses of very high optical performance can be designed in those focal length and aperture ranges. Adding autofocus, auto-aperture, etc. -- all of which I'd want so I could take advantage of the camera body's features -- would make the barrels a bit bigger, but they wouldn't have to be enormous.

    Panasonic's roadmapped 20/1.7 would fit into that foursome... so, one down, three to go! Time for Olympus to start dusting off some of the excellent optical designs from the Pen F lens line and re-engineering them to work with Micro Four Thirds...?

  34. #184
    Senior Member Y.B.Hudson III's Avatar
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    duz size matter?



    if you know what you're looking at you know what I mean...

  35. #185
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    In all these discussions about fast lenses, I seldom see anyone mention the main reason I find for needing them: subject movement when shooting in dim light without flash.

    I take many photographs this way, street scenes at night, or candids of friends sitting around the dinner table by candle light, for example. With the G1 at ISO 1600 (which is fine in b/w), the difference between my old Canon 50 1.4 wide open and my newer ZM 50 f2 wide open is often the difference between a decent image and a blurry mess. This has nothing to do with any niceties of bokeh or heavy-glass machismo, it's just a matter of using the tool that will do the job in these conditions.

    I am not wholly immune to gear lust, though. Dying to get my hands on the E-P1!

    Best to all, Dan.

  36. #186
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    [QUOTE=doubledan;107847]In all these discussions about fast lenses, I seldom see anyone mention the main reason I find for needing them: subject movement when shooting in dim light without flash.

    I take many photographs this way, street scenes at night, or candids of friends sitting around the dinner table by candle light, for example. With the G1 at ISO 1600 (which is fine in b/w), the difference between my old Canon 50 1.4 wide open and my newer ZM 50 f2 wide open is often the difference between a decent image and a blurry mess. This has nothing to do with any niceties of bokeh or heavy-glass machismo, it's just a matter of using the tool that will do the job in these conditions.

    Can you post pics to illustrate what you mean?
    Which is better the old Canon or the newer ZM?

  37. #187
    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    This is how it looks

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Is it white or silver????

  39. #189
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Not sure... looks like bottom and top cover in white and body in light ivory
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Yeah just saw 43rumors.com and it is listed as white/beige.

  41. #191
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Looking good - though not keen on colour... at least it will stand out on the store shelf :-)

    Not sure what the litle dot on the front upper right might be ? remote trigger?

    hopefully the optical VF will have some smarts built in like expoure and focus info - but it looks kind tiny for that

    ah well all will be revealed tomorrow

    K

  42. #192
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Looks very promising... I am so glad that Olympus went for this clean and simple look - the white/beige will take a little getting used to though

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Looks very promising... I am so glad that Olympus went for this clean and simple look - the white/beige will take a little getting used to though

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    I was told that it would be available in :
    White
    Silver
    Black

    we haven't seen any black pictures, but the other ones seemed to be silver with black bits - probably a bit less girly :-)

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  44. #194
    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Have a look. Even moore colors...
    Okay its in chinese... but the pics are in digital.... LOL

    http://info.xitek.com/news/200906/15-20900.html

    The black one looks like a Pana LX3..
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by kweide View Post
    Have a look. Even moore colors...
    Okay its in chinese... but the pics are in digital.... LOL

    http://info.xitek.com/news/200906/15-20900.html

    The black one looks like a Pana LX3..
    I think it looks nice . . . mind you, I always thought the LX3 looked nice too. Maybe the silver with black is the correct one?
    Here they are for those who can't be bothered with the link:







    Last edited by jonoslack; 15th June 2009 at 01:38.

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  46. #196
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    I'd probably go for black (although that shot above is the odd one out FAKE )

    Of those published so far, this one is my favourite :


    Thanks for the pics

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    The E-620 is looking more and more attractive by the minute...

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Delacour View Post
    The E-620 is looking more and more attractive by the minute...

    All a bit girly for us Jonath*ns do you think?

    I have two questions which - positives make it a certainty:

    1. is it weatherproofed
    2. does it have IS

    negatives make it a perhaps.

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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I'd probably go for black (although that shot above is the odd one out FAKE )

    Of those published so far, this one is my favourite :


    Thanks for the pics

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    HI Brian
    nappy content colour eh?

    As for the black one - certainly the picture is photoshopped . . . but I'm not sure that makes it a fake. They all look like CGI to me anyway.

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  50. #200
    Subscriber Member Jonathon Delacour's Avatar
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    Re: Olympus picture leak

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    All a bit girly for us Jonath*ns do you think?

    I have two questions which - positives make it a certainty:

    1. is it weatherproofed
    2. does it have IS

    negatives make it a perhaps.
    Agreed -- as you and I both know, we Jonath*ns are definitely not girly-men!

    Living down-under, where the weather is beautiful one day, perfect the next, I'm not so concerned about weather-proofing. But the lack of IS would mean instant disqualification.

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