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Thread: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

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    LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    I have experienced a strange issue .

    After many tries , I can pin down the problem to at least four different cameras G1 , with OEM wide angle lenses .
    The shorter the focal length the more obvious is the problem .

    I came across that problem just by luck .

    A little description is neccessary .
    I used a VOIGTLÄNDER 4,5/15mm lens , but the problem also shows with other WA lenses .
    Shoot a blue or dizzy sky , and offload the image .
    I use LR + PSCS3 . Enlarge the image to 300% and inspect the right top corner and right lower corner . I find a funny pattern which I do not find on the left side of the image .
    Of course you can shoot anything , but then it is much more difficult to see the pattern .

    Here it is .

    Attachment 17888

    Do you get the same pattern ? ? ?
    What could cause this pattern ? ? ?
    Why does it not appear anywhere else in the image ? ? ?
    Is this supposed to be normal ? ? ?

    It will possibly not cause any trouble for normal little images , but it is very strange to me .
    When using the lens kit zoom at the wide angle position it can also be seen , but very very much softer . But the pattern is there .

    Looking forward to hear your experience .

    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    I seem to recall this is caused by the raw conversion software, there is a thread around here somewhere...

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    If you mean the right-angled "check" pattern -- I see it in a lot of images, not necessarily with wide lenses but mostly at higher ISO settings.

    I also recall discussion that it is related to what raw-conversion software you use; I use Adobe Lightroom.

    What software did you use for these? Have you tried running them through SilkyPix (s/w supplied with camera) to see if you can reproduce the results?

    If we can definitely show it is a Lightroom-specific problem, we might be able to ask Adobe to do something about it...

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I have experienced a strange issue .

    Do you get the same pattern ? ? ?
    What could cause this pattern ? ? ?
    Why does it not appear anywhere else in the image ? ? ?
    Is this supposed to be normal ? ? ?
    I found this using dcraw ... I asked the maker about it and he patiently pointed me to the FAQ:


    If you see patterns like this or this in your output images, first try
    "dcraw -a". If these patterns persist, use "dcraw -f" to get rid of them.
    I expect that LR is using the core library from dcraw

    perhaps there are some options on preferences in the settings?

    HTH

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    If you mean the right-angled "check" pattern -- I see it in a lot of images, not necessarily with wide lenses but mostly at higher ISO settings.

    I also recall discussion that it is related to what raw-conversion software you use; I use Adobe Lightroom.

    What software did you use for these? Have you tried running them through SilkyPix (s/w supplied with camera) to see if you can reproduce the results?

    If we can definitely show it is a Lightroom-specific problem, we might be able to ask Adobe to do something about it...

    First of all , thank you guys for the hint to the possibility of a software problem .
    My workflow is LR to PS .
    I use LR and PSCS3/CS4 converting from RAW to TIFF .

    I have now installed SILKYPIX + the latest update .

    If I open the TEST image with LR and transfer that to TIFF , open that image file with PSCS3/4 , the pattern can easily bee seen .
    If I do the verysame using SILKY PIX , open the image file with PSCS3/4 the pattern does NOT exist .

    That encourages me to say , we have a software problem for the RAW conversion of the LUMIX G1 to the ADOBE LR software .
    Shurely also for other ADOBE software .

    How sould we proceed . ? ? ?

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    How sould we proceed . ? ? ?
    my workflow before I got the G1 was to use ACR to convert my image into Photoshop, when I got my G1 I found that my version of ACR did not support it. I had been expecting something like that.

    Personally I don't like running with the cutting edge for exactly that reason.

    I've not altered my workflow to use dcraw as my conversion and then open that file in CS. This has both advantages and disadvantages. I can use dcraw for instance to generate all the jpg thumbnails using the -e option. Now I just shoot RAW and get mid sized jpgs out of the raw file for preview.

    However I also had been experimenting with the use of photomatix (as it opens my RAW file directly) and doing gentle tone mapping. I then open in CS and apply some local area contrast and curves. My woodpecker shots were done this way for instance



    I now seem to prefer this method as I can get a look more like a scan of negative (only much clearer) which I like.

    it may just be a matter of playing with settings in LR as I suggested or it may be that you could explore a hybrid workflow.

    Sometimes the best solution is a workaround ... it may take some personal adjustment though.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Thanks for your answer .

    As I stated before , SILKYPIX does not show the "pattern" .

    In the meantime , I have addressed the problem in the ADOBE LIGHTROOM forum .

    As I also use PHOCUS for HASSELBLAD digital images , I do not want to change my workflow .
    PHOCUS and LIGHTROOM are so similar and very easy to handle .
    Therefore SILKYPIX is only a replacement solution , till the issue is clarified .

    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    As I stated before , SILKYPIX does not show the "pattern" .
    I did read that ... but as you also said:

    My workflow is LR to PS .
    I use LR and PSCS3/CS4 converting from RAW to TIFF .
    I thought I would mention the options of dcraw to allow you closer to your prefered workflow. I don't like slikypix much.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    I don't like SILKYPIX either .
    I had a look for the recommended dcraw today and found it very complicated to get that software installed and finally gave up .

    As LR is very similar to PHOCUS from HASSELBLAD , which I also use , I decided not to change my workflow and wait for a solution from the LR people .

    In the meantime I will use SILKYPIX as a substitution .

    I will come back with details from ADOBE as soon as that is available .

    I would be very much interested if other G1 users have seen the same issue .

    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    I have updated LR2.3 to LR2.4 , but the above described issue is still there .
    Is anyone else seeing this pattern as described above ? ? ?

    Jürgen

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I don't like SILKYPIX either .
    I had a look for the recommended dcraw today and found it very complicated to get that software installed and finally gave up .
    if you are using a PC its just an exe file ... command line ... job done

    it doesn't even muck up your registry

    http://www.insflug.org/raw/

    http://www.insflug.org/raw/file_download/3/dcraw.exe

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I have updated LR2.3 to LR2.4 , but the above described issue is still there .
    Is anyone else seeing this pattern as described above ? ? ?
    Jürgen
    Yes, I see this pattern (I call it "checking") in some of my own pictures. Usually it's only noticeable in smooth medium-toned areas, and I tend to see it more in shots at high ISOs (possibly because most of my shots are at high ISOs!)

    My reading of the release notes for LR2.4 is that it adds compatibility for some new camera models and fixes some minor bugs (mostly interface bugs in the Windows version.) I assume there were no changes in the underlying imaging "engine," so we could not expect it to resolve this issue.

    I suppose I should find some good example images and start posting them on the official Lightroom forums, as Adobe is likely to do something only if enough of us make a stink. The G1 and GH1 are still tiny-minority cameras compared to all the Canons and Nikons out there, so it will take some effort to get Adobe to pay attention.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Yes, I see this pattern (I call it "checking") in some of my own pictures. Usually it's only noticeable in smooth medium-toned areas, and I tend to see it more in shots at high ISOs (possibly because most of my shots are at high ISOs!)

    My reading of the release notes for LR2.4 is that it adds compatibility for some new camera models and fixes some minor bugs (mostly interface bugs in the Windows version.) I assume there were no changes in the underlying imaging "engine," so we could not expect it to resolve this issue.

    I suppose I should find some good example images and start posting them on the official Lightroom forums, as Adobe is likely to do something only if enough of us make a stink. The G1 and GH1 are still tiny-minority cameras compared to all the Canons and Nikons out there, so it will take some effort to get Adobe to pay attention.
    Ranger9

    I am using MAC OSX 10.5.7

    First of all , thank you for your reply . So , now I know , that I am not the only one seeing that pattern .
    I came across this issue , when I wanted to merge 3 images for an HDRI using photomatix .
    There I saw a kind of chessboard pattern in the described areas .
    Inspecting the single image the suspected areas turned out as shown on the first page of this thread .

    I have opened a thread at the adobe forum , but there is no solution and no activity so far .

    I have gone back to LR2.3 as I use PSCS3 and PSCS4 .
    Not all updates are golden and often no real advantage to the former version .

    Thanks again . Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I am using MAC OSX 10.5.7
    You might want to try Raw Photo Processor. It plays well with LR.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    The pattern you're seeing is called a maze pattern,and it is indeed related to the raw processor - specifically, it occurs on AHD type demosaicing algorithms (which both dcraw and Adobe's convertors are), usually when there is a difference in level between the two green channels in the Bayer matrix.

    This usually gets worse with higher ISO, and does vary between individual cameras - probably not every G1 would show it even under identical circumstances.

    Your best bet would be the Adobe forums - specifically you want Eric Chan to take note. But Adobe probably won't make changes unless there are several different people with the same problem; one camera doing this would probably be a camera issue.

    Sandy

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    This has come up a number of times over at DPReview so you can do a search there and Eric Chan has been on a couple of threads over there so search for him as well and perhaps you can send him an email.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Sandy

    Thank you for your reply .
    It encourages me to believe , that the issue is with LR2.3
    I have seen this maze pattern with four different LUMIX G1 cameras .

    I do hope , that other LR users join in and report their experience .
    If ADOBE does not supply a solution , I will just kick out LR and regard this product as unsuitable , as a similar issue might exist for other cameras as well .
    Additional to that , there are rumors , that the LR2.4 converter does not convert HASSELBLAD 3FR files as good as PHOCUS does .

    I don't know if this is true , but a great name does not always mean the best performance .

    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    I've been shooting with the G1 and using Lightroom to do my processing for over 5000 images now. I use a wide range of lenses from a Cosmicar 12.5mm f/1.4 up to an Olympus ZD 50-200mm and Nikkor 180/2.8 with EC14 behind it. Including the standard G Vario 14-45 as well, of course.

    I've never once seen this problem in any of my exposures. I've heard others talk of it but only in the context of using dcraw.

    Do you have any statistics on what lens/lens opening/shutter time/etc it seems to appear at? If you do, I'll see if I have anything similar and do a more exhaustive check.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I am using MAC OSX 10.5.7
    well why didn't you say so

    http://www.insflug.org/raw/file_down...aw-MacOSX.tgz&

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Godfrey

    Thanks for your contribution.
    As I mentioned before , I came across this issue when I wanted the create an HDRI image using photomatix .
    There I saw a chessboard like pattern in the right top corner of the image .
    After inspecting the images in detail , I could identify the source .
    The maze pattern in the right top and bottom corner .

    I have no statistics .
    But . . . . i noticed , that the issue is not there or can hardly be seen when using long focal length lenses .
    The shorter the focal length of the lens , the more obvious is the pattern .
    I described all that in the first page of this thread .

    I can see the issue with the standard kit lens , with my 2,8/28mm KONICA HEXAR RF lens , and best with the VOIGTLAENDER HELIAR 4,5/15mm lens , but I can not see it with my KONIKA HEXAR 2,8/90mm .

    Therefore , as you use long focal length lenses , you will not see the issue , or only very "soft" .

    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by pellicle View Post
    Sorry pellicle

    I just did not think of that . Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Godfrey

    Any aperture or exposure time is affected .
    It can best be seen when shooting a homogenous area , like sky or a white/grey wall etc . but also in other areas of an image .

    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    ... I came across this issue when I wanted the create an HDRI image using photomatix .
    There I saw a chessboard like pattern in the right top corner of the image .
    After inspecting the images in detail , I could identify the source .
    The maze pattern in the right top and bottom corner .

    I have no statistics .
    But . . . . i noticed , that the issue is not there or can hardly be seen when using long focal length lenses .
    ...Therefore , as you use long focal length lenses , you will not see the issue , or only very "soft" .
    Long focal length lenses? I use mostly 25, 40 and lately the 12.5 mm lenses ... I haven't used much over 70mm other than occasionally. ??

    I just looked at a dozen or so images taken recently with the 25mm lens, clear blue sky, etc. Nada. ??

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Godfrey

    I have done further tests .
    HASSELBLAD , any V-SYSTEM camera , any wide angle lens , from 60mm down to 38mm , using CFV digital back , the same maze pattern can be seen , when using LR2.3/2.4 as RAW converter .
    When using the HASSELBLAD software , PHOCUS , the maze pattern does not exist .
    Therefore , I deinstalled LR and I will not use it any more .
    The issue is posted to ADOBE , but up to now , I get the feeling , that they just don't care .

    For me, this issue means , that there is something wrong in LR and I will never use that product anymore . The money for that product was just a waste .
    I have been in software service for many years , and no reaction to the customers , who keep these companies alive , is fatal . I do know that from my own experience .

    No feedback , that is what I hate .

    Jürgen .

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    I suspect they'll care a lot more if it's affecting Hasselblad users than they would if it were just affecting Lumix G1 users!

    If you want to make them extra-uncomfortable, you might visit some of the Lightroom user sites and post a note about your findings there. Granted, most of these sites are run by rabid Lightroom fanboys even if they're not formally affiliated with Adobe, so it's unlikely you'll get much traction. But the more noise there is, the better the chance that the issue will find its way onto Adobe's to-do list.

    I'm stuck with Lightroom as my raw-file management application -- it's still the best fit given the range of different raw formats I need to handle and the different ways I need to catalog/sort/retrieve them. But my learning from your experience is that I'll need to keep using external raw-file converters in situations where quality results are critical and Lightroom drops the ball. So thanks for sharing this and documenting it so thoroughly.

    I wonder if the newly-announced version of the DNG spec, which now supports storage of manufacturer-specific "opcodes" for image correction, eventually might lead to a solution for this...? But in the meantime, we've all got photos to make, and we've all got to use what works for us.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    I suspect they'll care a lot more if it's affecting Hasselblad users than they would if it were just affecting Lumix G1 users!

    But in the meantime, we've all got photos to make, and we've all got to use what works for us.
    Ranger

    Thanks for your feedback .

    You are probably right .
    I am fedup with testing and updating the ADOBE thread without getting an answer . That would be the least , to let you know : we are investigating .

    So in the meantime we have to use , what works for us .
    That is SILKYPIX for the G1 and PHOCUS for the HASSELBLAD .

    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    ADOBE informed me yesterday by E-mail, that with the next update for
    LR2.4 they will supply a fix for the described issue .
    Good news . That gives me the feeling , that customers concerns are not unheard .
    Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Excellent news. I just noticed the problem a few days ago and didn't find much discussion on the subject initially. Glad to know others have the problem too and have informed Adobe about it. I was afraid I would have had to spend a lot of time getting their attention...

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    I described the issue in detail in the ADOBE FORUM .
    I could see the same pattern for a HASSELBLAD digital RAW opened in LR2.4
    The pattern is not seen when using PHOCUS (Hasselblads RAW converter) .

    An update for LR2.4 , regarding the LUMIX G1 pattern exists but is not available yet .

    Jürgen

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    Yay, maybe finally some action!

    I just saw this post on the Adobe forum, suggesting that Jürgen's complaint has gotten some action!

    So far the fix is only in ACR 5.5, but they say an update to Lightroom is coming that will incorporate the same improvement.

    I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but at least Adobe has acknowledged and worked on it! Major kudos to Jürgen for persistence in getting it documented and drawing their attention to it.

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Hi ranger9

    Yes , good news .
    On the one side it gives me some satisfaction , that I was taken serious .
    As only very few people really responded to this issue , I felt very much left alone with that maze pattern issue .
    Now , ACR5.5(beta) solves the problem and ADOBE stated that a solution for LR will be available soon .
    Also , the same issue for HASSELBLAD 3fr files , will get an update with the next release .
    Good news for all of us and thanks to the ADOBE people who took care of this issue .

    Best regards Jürgen

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Hi ranger9

    Yes , good news .
    On the one side it gives me some satisfaction , that I was taken serious .
    As only very few people really responded to this issue , I felt very much left alone with that maze pattern issue .
    Now , ACR5.5(beta) solves the problem and ADOBE stated that a solution for LR will be available soon .
    Also , the same issue for HASSELBLAD 3fr files , will get an update with the next release .
    Good news for all of us and thanks to the ADOBE people who took care of this issue .

    Best regards Jürgen
    It is indeed good news for all of us who use the G1 and Lightroom/ACR but I'd suggest that, in addition to the Adobe people who addressed the problem, our thanks are also due to Jürgen who raised the issue and persisted until it was resolved.

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    Re: Voigtländer...

    I just posted a similar thread - I'm having the same experience using an E-P1 with Zeiss 21/4.5 and Zeiss 25/2.8 when converting with DNG Converter. I don't see the maze pattern when converting with Olympus Studio or CaptureOne 4. Odd... -Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Delacour View Post
    It is indeed good news for all of us who use the G1 and Lightroom/ACR but I'd suggest that, in addition to the Adobe people who addressed the problem, our thanks are also due to Jürgen who raised the issue and persisted until it was resolved.

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    Re: Voigtländer...

    Quote Originally Posted by nboyer View Post
    I just posted a similar thread - I'm having the same experience using an E-P1 with Zeiss 21/4.5 and Zeiss 25/2.8 when converting with DNG Converter. I don't see the maze pattern when converting with Olympus Studio or CaptureOne 4. Odd... -Norm
    I see the same with M mount lenses on my G1. I never saw it with Canon FD, Konica AR, or the m43 kit lenses. It is also specific to the Adobe ACR or LR2 converters and as noted above is supposed to be corrected for the G1 in the next release. You might want to report this experience with the E-P1 in the Adobe forum mentioned above - Eric Chan is very good about responding to these issues.

    Example from a comparison series on 25mm lenses that I did awhile ago. Note the pattern in the Zeiss 25 image:
    Last edited by scho; 21st August 2009 at 12:48. Reason: add image

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    For the first time I am getting these checkerboard patterns also, using LR 2.5; they don't show up in SilkyPix. If someone would please advise where on the LR forums postings about this issue should go, I would appreciate it.

    In first picture below, pattern appears in white shirt of man in middle of frame.

    In second picture, pattern appears in left portion of frame, just above horizon in the white clouds.

    Thanks for any help.
    ______________
    Robert

  36. #36
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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    What might help is the demosaicing routines. The demosaicing sharpness ought to be set to 0 to avoid the checkered pattern.

    The overall image quality takes a big leap as well. I noticed this only recently. The difference is stark (P&S quality to something decent).

    I hope the manufacturer would do themselves a big favor by coming up with better RAW processors for the cameras they sell.

  37. #37
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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Bowman View Post
    For the first time I am getting these checkerboard patterns also, using LR 2.5; they don't show up in SilkyPix. If someone would please advise where on the LR forums postings about this issue should go, I would appreciate it.
    Are you by any chance using a Mac with a G5 processor?

    For some reason the update to Lightroom 2.5 exposed a weird issue in which, running LR 2.5 on G5s only, very bright areas of the image get weird magenta "checking" around them; I could see it in both your attached photos.

    If you use an Intel Mac or a Windows PC, you don't get the issue. If you use a G5 Mac and "backgrade" to LR 2.4, the problem goes away (although you may have to delete and rebuild your previews to get rid of the checks.)

    And so far I've only seen reports of it happening to raw files from Panasonic G1s and Leica Ms... so at least we're in prestigious company!

    There's a growing thread here on Adobe's Lightroom forum about it. An official bug report has been filed and at least one Adobe employee has responded unofficially in the thread, so I presume they know about it.

    We've also had a GetDPI thread here, and I've posted an example photo there in which the problem shows up vividly.

    So you might check those and see if your symptoms match; if so, at least you know someone has told Adobe about it, and we'll all just have to wait and see if they do a fix (or else we'll all just have to stick with Lightroom 2.4.)

    On the other hand, if you're not using a G5 Mac, you may have something else going on, in which case you may want to file your own bug report with Adobe, which you can do by completing this form.

    Good luck!

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    Re: LUMIX G1 STRANGE PATTERN IN IMAGE

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    ... the update to Lightroom 2.5 exposed a weird issue in which, running LR 2.5 on G5s only, very bright areas of the image get weird magenta "checking" around them; I could see it in both your attached photos.
    I've done testing on this and submitted a bug report to Adobe.

    Found it on both PowerPC G4 and G5 systems.

    And so far I've only seen reports of it happening to raw files from Panasonic G1s and Leica Ms... so at least we're in prestigious company!
    Demostrated it with six cameras so far: Oly E-1, E-P1; Pentax *ist DS, K10D; Panasonic L1, G1.

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