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Thread: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Ok, so I'm testing a trial version of Lightzone that CAN open E-P1 raw. I want to get the best possible quality so that latter I may work with the image on Photoshop with all my plugins and stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong but what I should be doing is fine tuning the image to get the most possible detail and dynamic range, and the less possible amount of grain. Then latter I should export it as a 16bit tiff file and just take it from there on Photoshop. Is this all correct or should I be doing something else?

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Ok, so I'm testing a trial version of Lightzone that CAN open E-P1 raw. I want to get the best possible quality so that latter I may work with the image on Photoshop with all my plugins and stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong but what I should be doing is fine tuning the image to get the most possible detail and dynamic range, and the less possible amount of grain. Then latter I should export it as a 16bit tiff file and just take it from there on Photoshop. Is this all correct or should I be doing something else?
    If you don't want grain I don't think the E-P1 is the right camera unless you're going to shoot iso200 all the time (and even then it doesn't look like an APS-C file).

    Actually one reason I really like it is due to the look of the grain.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    sounds about right to me

    if you have an open mind, you could try using photomatix to convert your RAW to a HDR file which you can then:
    • do a little bit of tone mapping to and then open in photoshop
    • open it in photoshop where local area contrast and sharpening can be applied


    the nasty effects on the shadows only occur when applying excessive tone mapping (which seems to be quite the flavour of the month)

    I apply this workflow to almost all my images now as I've found it gives a film like look without the grain. For instance:



    there was no other way to get the little guy's eye visible without careful dodge n burn in layers ...

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Thanks guys, I guess this will be my new workflow from now on.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    BTW. here is a nice article about RAW http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...aw-files.shtml

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    BTW. here is a nice article about RAW http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...aw-files.shtml
    thanks for the link ... I liked the table ... and the ending:

    I'd like to thank Michael Tapes of Phase One and Thomas Knoll of Adobe for their feedback and contributions toward this article. If there are any novel insights to be found here it is likely as a result of their feedback. If there are any factual errors they are likely mine.

    — Mchael Reichmann
    I guess that one of the errors would be spelling his name wrongly ;-)

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Hi Rafa
    I still think that using a traditional RAW workflow:

    Raw file - converter - tiff file - product
    is a horrible way of working (I should know, I did it for years).

    The two pieces of DAM software: Lightroom and Aperture (and to a lesser extent Capture one). Save the changes you make to the RAW files in either a sidecar file (Capture one and ACR/Bridge)) or in a database (lightroom and Aperture). It means that you only need to keep one copy of the RAW file - only using output when you actually need it for a web page or a file for a client.

    I'm sure that you should at least think and examine going down this route before you make any decisions.

    Deciding how to do your RAW workflow is really quick and easy - changing it later is really slow and difficult.

    The fact that neither lightroom or aperture yet support the E-P1 is not very relevant - I'm sure that they will (at least, lightroom is a certainty). Capture one is going to as well.

    You could, to get you going, download the 30 day capture one trial, do the easy hack to get it to read the E-P1 files, by the time it's expired there should be more choices, but C1 does a grand job now.

    Personally? I use Aperture - and with cataloguing for 24,000 images changing now would be a horrible job, still, it's only problem is slow support for new cameras.

    Take time to make up your mind!

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Thanks, Jono. For years I've shot with the simplicity of JPEG, so RAW is a brand new world for me. One additional thing that REALLY bothers me is the fact that Windows doesn’t let you preview the raw files...this means having a dedicate program for doing so instead of simply looking inside a folder.
    As for the workflow I have no doubt that any will give me more quality than the jpegs I've been working with.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    One additional thing that REALLY bothers me is the fact that Windows doesn’t let you preview the raw files...
    ok ... going out on a limb here:
    1. dcraw has a extract thumbnails ( -e ) command line option, I use this with to create a bunch of .thumbnail.jpg images which are also made using the default. This allows me to romp through them all then see what the camera did with its settings and I can use that as some reference on how I start processing
    2. irfanview has an option to load the thumbnails in some raw files ...


    as to:

    As for the workflow I have no doubt that any will give me more quality than the jpegs I've been working with.
    depending on things they may not ... if you get more things right in the JPG and don't need to edit I think it'd be hard to really improve on it ... except perhaps the gamut output of your final printing media may strech the sRGB gamut in some cases and introduce noise... I had this with a red wedding dress.

    @johno

    a good point about RAW processing. I was first made aware of this the first wedding I did in RAW when I had batches of indoor and outdoor stuff to process. Wanted a swag done one way for the lighting , and another batch for the outdoor colour balance. saving the xmp data is handy

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    and why the hell are my bullet points always black text??

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    thearne3
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Rafa

    Personally? I use Aperture - and with cataloguing for 24,000 images changing now would be a horrible job, still, it's only problem is slow support for new cameras.

    Take time to make up your mind!
    I use Aperture as well. I gather that there are no ways to hack Aperture? What is your RAW flow while waiting for Aperture?

    Thanks,
    Tom

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by thearne3 View Post
    I use Aperture as well. I gather that there are no ways to hack Aperture? What is your RAW flow while waiting for Aperture?

    Thanks,
    Tom
    HI Tom
    You might easily be able to hack Aperture as well, but it's a bit complex as the raw.plist file concerned is (these days) 'self repairing', so you have to do stuff in terminal as well. I did find a message somewhere about it, and I certainly used to do it with the M8. I'm sure if you can find an easy way there would be lots of grateful folk around here . . . me included!

    As for now; my recent stuff has been weddings and a concert, none of which really suited the E-P1. I've mostly been shooting jpg with it, if I really want to shoot RAW then I'll use Capture One (which does a good job) and then produce tiff's for aperture. I don't mind doing it for a month or so, but not longer than that I hope. In the longer term, if Apple don't do support, then I'll get rid of the camera (with much regret) - but I don't think it'll come to that.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Thanks, Jono. For years I've shot with the simplicity of JPEG, so RAW is a brand new world for me. One additional thing that REALLY bothers me is the fact that Windows doesn’t let you preview the raw files...this means having a dedicate program for doing so instead of simply looking inside a folder.
    As for the workflow I have no doubt that any will give me more quality than the jpegs I've been working with.
    Hi Rafa
    I think it's worth the effort of changing, and my workflow is no more complicated with raw than it would be with jpg (using Aperture), in fact, it's exactly the same!

    As for the RAW file preview - I think it's coming in Windows 7 isn't it? Or, of course, you could really throw the cards up in the air and get a mac!

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    I am mostly shooting jpg until Aperture gets an update. HOpefully it won't be like the DLUx4 which is still NOT supported by Aperture. That said I agree with Jono 100% - Aperture makes like very simple and there is no difference between shooting raw and jpg. It is one-stop-shop from transfer to print.

    But the wait does suck. It seems to be related to cameras that do a lot of processing internally. The DLux4 fixes barrel distortion and the E-P1 fixes that along with some other things I think. Thankfully RawDeveloper quickly supports cameras but they don't do any auto-correction.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I am mostly shooting jpg until Aperture gets an update. HOpefully it won't be like the DLUx4 which is still NOT supported by Aperture. That said I agree with Jono 100% - Aperture makes like very simple and there is no difference between shooting raw and jpg. It is one-stop-shop from transfer to print.

    But the wait does suck. It seems to be related to cameras that do a lot of processing internally. The DLux4 fixes barrel distortion and the E-P1 fixes that along with some other things I think. Thankfully RawDeveloper quickly supports cameras but they don't do any auto-correction.
    Hi there
    I bet one can hack the raw.plist file, duplicate the E-30 and then change it to E-P1, unfortunately I'm a bit busy at the moment, and, having just appointed myself to the job of 'telling nostatic what to do' I'm deputing you to sort out the Aperture fix

    I suspect that Apple have simply been hoping that lens correction goes away, but I think they'll have to support the E-P1. Here's Hoping. One thing worth mentioning is that the Olympus kit zoom doesn't seem to have as much lens correction information as the pana lenses - which means that not having it doesn't seeem to be that much of a hardship. Which means that this fix you're going to organise will be really useful

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Jono, you are absolutely right. Converting the ORF files to TIFF is just crazy. I'm ending up with 70mb per photo! What really sucks is that I cannot get the ORF files converted to either RAW or PSD (Photoshop project file). I've tried with Lightzone and with the program that comes with the E-P1 and I couldn't find the option. I'm not going to buy an application just so that I may do this. Is there any way around this? I really want to start using raw now.

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Hi Rafa,

    Lightzone can open E-P1 raw files, but it isn't tuned yet to support them natively - you should find that they are massively underexposed and colour shifted.

    The new version should be available shortly - unless you're testing an unreleased beta?

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    The thing is, whatever program I use to open the ORF files I want to be able to convert them to RAW or PSD so that I may treat the images on Photoshop. And neither Lightzone nor Oly's Master 2 can do this (unless I'm mistaken...which I hope I am).

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    The thing is, whatever program I use to open the ORF files I want to be able to convert them to RAW or PSD so that I may treat the images on Photoshop. And neither Lightzone nor Oly's Master 2 can do this (unless I'm mistaken...which I hope I am).
    You cannot *convert* .ORF files to RAW files ... .ORF files are RAW files. Only the camera creates .ORF RAW files.

    You convert .ORF files to PSD or TIFF files ... those are RGB-channel organized, de-mosaicked, gamma corrected files ready for editing. (JPEG files should be used for output and display only, not for editing.) Preferably 16bit per channel representation.

    There's little difference whether you output from .ORFs as TIFF or PSD files. Both LightZone and Olympus Master 2 can output to 16-bit TIFF files.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Thanks, Godfrey. I'm new to RAW so I thought there were different compressors (orf being the one used by Oly) that could be converted to more compatible ones. The reason I don't want to convert to TIFF is because the files are huge (although I have no idea how big an ORF file converted to PSD would be).

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    thearne3
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    I just downloaded graphicconverter (Lemke Software - shareware). I believe it's Mac only, but it reads .orf files from e-p1 and outputs both .tiff and .psd. I downloaded an e-p1 .orf file from ImageResource (I think!) called ep1hHOUSE.orf - size is 13.9mb. Converted to .psd - size 36.7mb.

    Hope that helps!
    Tom

    PS. My e-p1 is in the mail. I usually use Aperture, but was looking around for alternatives and found this thread...

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Thanks, that does help. the PSD is bigger than I thought but it still almost 3 times smaller than a TIFF.

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    thearne3
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Still awaiting my E-P1, but have done some more homework on Aperture. I have modified my Raw.plist file, cloning the E-3 (is there a more comparable camera?) section and naming it for the EP1. This 'sticks'. However, the one .orf file I have from an E-P1 still doesn't import. I am assuming that once a .DNG can be created using Adobe's RAW converter (when supported), this should work. I base this assumption on others' experience with hacking for earlier cameras that Aperture didn't support.

    Any thoughts? I am also hoping the PTLens plug-in will work to address the lens-specific issues for the two kit lenses. Anyone done a profile for PTLens? They will create a profile for free - just need to send test shots using their form.

    Best,
    Tom

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Thanks, that does help. the PSD is bigger than I thought but it still almost 3 times smaller than a TIFF.
    Uncompressed TIFF files are large. I create TIFF files with zip compression when I need TIFF format files. They're in most cases about the same size as PSD files, other times smaller.

    After all, Adobe owns the TIFF specification and PSD files are actually a specialization of TIFF file format with compression added by default. ;-)

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by thearne3 View Post
    Still awaiting my E-P1, but have done some more homework on Aperture. I have modified my Raw.plist file, cloning the E-3 (is there a more comparable camera?) section and naming it for the EP1. This 'sticks'. However, the one .orf file I have from an E-P1 still doesn't import. I am assuming that once a .DNG can be created using Adobe's RAW converter (when supported), this should work. I base this assumption on others' experience with hacking for earlier cameras that Aperture didn't support. ...
    Apple has not yet supported any of the RAW format files that include the lens correction metadata that micro-FourThirds cameras include. Aperture also does an incomplete job of supporting DNG format. It supports DNG files with mosaic data now, but it doesn't support DNG files with linear data. So it's very hard to say for sure when proper Aperture support will be available for the E-P1 and some other cameras like the G1, GH1, LX3, DLux4, etc, or even DNG files created by converting these cameras RAW format.

    The DNG Specification itself was updated to include options for this lens correction metadata in the very latest rev (v1.3) so perhaps Apple was waiting for that before working on support for these cameras. ... ?

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Apple has not yet supported any of the RAW format files that include the lens correction metadata that micro-FourThirds cameras include. Aperture also does an incomplete job of supporting DNG format. It supports DNG files with mosaic data now, but it doesn't support DNG files with linear data. So it's very hard to say for sure when proper Aperture support will be available for the E-P1 and some other cameras like the G1, GH1, LX3, DLux4, etc, or even DNG files created by converting these cameras RAW format.

    The DNG Specification itself was updated to include options for this lens correction metadata in the very latest rev (v1.3) so perhaps Apple was waiting for that before working on support for these cameras. ... ?

    Hi Godfrey
    without wanting to battle this one out again (and I quite agree that they don't support any RAW format files including lens correction metadata). I would have thought that you could clone the E30 information in Aperture and use that. (better than E3 at least). That's how it works with Capture one (and it certainly does work). Having said that, Apertures DNG 2 support seems to be much more complete than Capture One.

    I think Linear files are a red-herring. However, you can now use Adobe DNG converter to produce 'normal' DNG files from the G1, D-lux4 LX3 etc. which will import into aperture normally (Adobe seem to have abandoned the linear 'half cooked' files).

    Sorry, I'll make that clearer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    So it's very hard to say for sure when proper Aperture support will be available for the E-P1 and some other cameras like the G1, GH1, LX3, DLux4, etc, or even DNG files created by converting these cameras RAW format.
    Although, as you say, Aperture is not supporting these cameras directly The DNG files created by converting these files using Adobe DNG converter has been supported by Aperture for some time now (except for the E-P1 as of today).
    Last edited by jonoslack; 24th July 2009 at 15:34.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Godfrey
    without wanting to battle this one out again (and I quite agree that they don't support any RAW format files including lens correction metadata)....
    There's nothing to battle about, Jono.

    - I would never rely upon modifying Apple system frameworks (or hacking data in any application's code to enable it for that matter) for the RAW conversion engine for my uses.

    I know that this is a point of contention, but I worked at Apple for over a decade in software development support and developer relations, AND I do consulting to fix problems caused by users doing this sort of thing. It's simply a bad idea. The engineering team on any application or system framework can change things and break this kluge at any time, rendering your workflow broken and costing time, money and aggravation.

    I would never bet my photographic livelihood on such workarounds. It is simply a bad idea.

    However, if it works for your purposes, who cares? Go ahead and have fun.

    - Linearly represented, demosaicked DNG files are a part of the DNG file and format specification. If you don't support interpreting them, your implementation of DNG support is incomplete.

    - I haven't tested .RW2 files containing lens correction metadata converted to mosaic representation DNG files with DNG Converter v5.4 (built on DNG Specification revision 1.3) in Aperture, iPhoto or Preview as yet. If Aperture can read them, great.

    But are the intended lens corrections performed? If not, the support is incomplete again.

    I haven't needed to test these things. I don't own an E-P1 yet, but I can process its .ORF files in Studio 2 (what a piece of garbage that is, but it works). Lightroom 2 fully supports the .RW2 files from LX3/G1/et al already, and will support the E-P1 soon too, so I have no issues working with what I need to work with at present.

    ...

    When I answer questions regards this sort of stuff, I do it from my personal and business perspective, which is that of a professional photographer and computer systems consultant. I don't muck around with operating systems and applications for fun. I don't hack code to make something work unless at extremis for a client who's livelihood depends on it. These are not professional practices. I'm looking to promote getting work done, producing photographs for income and enabling others to do so as well.

    I am not a hobbyist in this context, sometimes I wish I were. Hobbyists and enthusiasts have a lot more fun ... they can afford to accept more risk and if something breaks, it's annoying but does not cost them their livelihood.

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    I don't know the technical minutae, but I can say that the DNG files from my K7 (which Aperture doesn't yet "support") tended to not look very good on jpg ouput. Using RawDeveloper (that does support the K7) yielded a much better looking final file.

    I have been very happy with Aperture until lately. There still is no support for the DLux4, and now I fear the EP1 may suffer the same fate. To date I've stuck with my "lazy" workflow of having Aperture import images and working within there. As a result I've stuck to shooting jpg most of the time with DLux4 and EP1. While that is ok, it isn't optimal and when I've had shots I really thought were critical I've gone raw and used RawDeveloper. After the K7 experience I'm thinking that I may have to go to manual import/organization and use RD or C1 more (though both are clunkier to me than Aperture). Of course then I'll have to deal with lens correction with both DLux4 and EP1. *sigh*

  29. #29
    thearne3
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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Reading these last posts is very interesting. I certainly appreciate the risk associated with any software hack!

    From what Godfrey is saying, I gather that there is no reason to leave files in TIFF form - just go for the psd with no loss? My hard disk thanks you!

    As a non-professional and a noob, I'm wondering how the PTLens plug-in fits into the equation? Once some form of non-jpg file can be imported into Aperture, wouldn't the PTLens product be an effective way to address MOST of the lens issues (CA, barrel, etc)?

    Just a thought...

    Tom

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by thearne3 View Post
    From what Godfrey is saying, I gather that there is no reason to leave files in TIFF form - just go for the psd with no loss? My hard disk thanks you!
    On my system, TIFF files stored with zip compression are actually the same size or slightly smaller than the identical PSD files, on average.

    As a non-professional and a noob, I'm wondering how the PTLens plug-in fits into the equation? Once some form of non-jpg file can be imported into Aperture, wouldn't the PTLens product be an effective way to address MOST of the lens issues (CA, barrel, etc)?
    As long as you're going to work with RGB files, rather than RAW, sure. And when you develop a PTLens correction that works well too. :-)

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I am not a hobbyist in this context, sometimes I wish I were. Hobbyists and enthusiasts have a lot more fun ... they can afford to accept more risk and if something breaks, it's annoying but does not cost them their livelihood.
    Hi Godfrey
    and you always use a tripod too!

    I'm glad somebody takes things seriously. I'm afraid I never really did - I will do whatever it takes to get the picture I want, if that means hacking into configuration files (which I understand) or hand holding macros, then so be it. However I clearly shouldn't encourage other people to behave so irresponsibly.

    One thing I don't do is to represent opinions as facts.

    I suppose I am simply a hobbyist - both with my photography, and with my 22 year old software business.

    I stand suitably reprimanded
    Last edited by jonoslack; 26th July 2009 at 02:38.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...and you always use a tripod too!
    Not always, but quite often.

    I'm glad somebody takes things seriously. I'm afraid I never really did - I will do whatever it takes to get the picture I want, if that means hacking into configuration files (which I understand) or hand holding macros, then so be it. However I clearly shouldn't encourage other people to behave so irresponsibly.

    One thing I don't do is to represent opinions as facts.
    You seem to be intimating that I don't understand configuration files and that I represent opinions as facts. I disagree with both notions, they seem to be a bit less than ingenuous.

    I suppose I am simply a hobbyist - both with my photography, and with my 22 year old software business.

    I stand suitably reprimanded
    Stand however you'd like, just don't ascribe it to me. I've responded to a question in what I feel is an objective and responsible fashion. We've got similar time in these endeavors it seems (photography since 1964ish and software engineering since 1984 for me anyway ...).

    BTW: I did open a couple of mosaic-data DNG (v1.3 spec) files from the G1 in iPhoto today and found it worked with them ... wretched tools for RAW adjustment imo but it worked. I neglected to test with DNG files that contained lens correction data, however ... I'll have to fit one of those lenses and make a few exposures to test further.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Don't worry Godfrey - I wasn't implying that you didn't understand configuration files (even though you did seem to be confusing them with application code I knew you didn't mean it). I do think you often present opinions as facts, but then, that's just my opinion.

    I was only being flippant in the vain hope that you'd join in.

    Don't bother to test mosaic-data DNG conversion files for lens correction - it doesn't do it (it actually says it doesn't in the DNG converter notes as far as I can remember). I completely fail to understand why you would want to use iphoto for RAW adjustment, but I guess it's because you don't have Aperture?
    Last edited by jonoslack; 26th July 2009 at 16:06.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    I see you edited this post again after I read it which implies you want a response.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Don't worry Godfrey - I wasn't implying that you didn't understand configuration files (even though you did seem to be confusing them with application code I knew you didn't mean it). I do think you often present opinions as facts, but then, that's just my opinion.
    Do I need to be absolutely literal in every statement I make? Editing configuration files unofficially and hacking applications preferences ... I lump all these together into "hacking the code". Pardon my loose speech.

    You're entitled to your opinion, wrong though it may be. You read too much into my statements.

    I was only being flippant in the vain hope that you'd join in.
    I saw nothing at all "flippant" in what you said.

    Don't bother to test mosaic-data DNG conversion files for lens correction - it doesn't do it (it actually says it doesn't in the DNG converter notes as far as I can remember). I completely fail to understand why you would want to use iphoto for RAW adjustment, but I guess it's because you don't have Aperture?
    Testing the Mac OS X system framework that does RAW conversion for compatibility can be done with any application that utilizes its services ... iPhoto, Preview, and Aperture. I have no desire to install Aperture on my desktop system again ... I do have the latest eval copy on my laptop but that computer wasn't booted up at the moment I decided to give it a try.

    I don't like using either Aperture or iPhoto very much, I just wanted to test RAW conversion compatibility with the latest DNG spec files. I hadn't seen any such notes in the DNG Converter application notes, but eh? perhaps I didn't look that hard. It's not important to me, really. Just a point of curiosity.

    I'm perfectly happy to wait until Adobe revs DNG Converter, Camera Raw and Lightroom for full RAW compatibility with E-P1 .ORF files. I'm sure it will happen soon. After LR supports it, I'll consider whether buying an E-P1 has benefit for me. I'm pretty happy with the G1's performance so far.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Do I need to be absolutely literal in every statement I make? Editing configuration files unofficially and hacking applications preferences ... I lump all these together into "hacking the code". Pardon my loose speech.
    I'll let you off (I think I already had, hence the edit).

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Thanks Robert - but they always do such a bad job with 4/3 sensors (this is just my humble opinion).
    Anyway, I'm pretty sure Capture one will come up with support, and I'd think that even Apple will need to follow along this time.

    I just wish that all these companies would use dng files (As Leica did with the M8 ricoh do) then we wouldn't have to have this struggle each time there's a new camera.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    -- snip --
    I just wish that all these companies would use dng files (As Leica did with the M8 ricoh do) then we wouldn't have to have this struggle each time there's a new camera.
    But then there are the non-standard parts of dng files, the "maker notes" section.
    Picking apart the dng standard and low and behold it has at least one area that requires specific camera by camera support.
    The next issue is what revision of dng?
    The latest supports all sorts of lens correction goodies, but as far as I know, is not yet implemented by any camera manufacturer or raw processor for that matter.
    -bob

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Jono,

    If Adobe's ACR/LR do a bad job with 4/3 sensors and their .orf raw files, would they still do a bad job if Adobe's dng converter converted them to dng?
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Jono,

    If Adobe's ACR/LR do a bad job with 4/3 sensors and their .orf raw files, would they still do a bad job if Adobe's dng converter converted them to dng?
    As far as I understand it (Godfrey might correct me here ), the answer is:

    1. If they are linear DNG then Adobe is doing the demosaic, so YES (they will still be bad)

    2. If they are not linear DNG then Adobe isn't so the answer is NO. (they will be as good as the other converter).

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Jono,
    So what is the best solution at the moment.
    The Oly software is, well....
    Any ideas......
    Don

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Jono,
    So what is the best solution at the moment.
    The Oly software is, well....
    Any ideas......
    Don
    HI Don
    Best results? Oly software . . . . if you have the fastest computer in the world it might even be bearable!

    Me - I'm using Capture One - I'm pretty sure there will be full support very soon. I guess there will also be ACR support in the next few weeks (together with Lightroom and CS4, but not, one assumes CS3).

    I should say that my opinion that Adobe don't do a good job with 4/3 files is very much that (i.e. my opinion), I'm sure others will disagree. My personal feeling is that they don't try so hard with second tier cameras (the A900 is an obvious case in point).

    If you aren't comfortable with changing Capture One, then why not shoot RAW+jpg superfine for a week or so, and save the ORF files of the best shots so you can re-do them when the right converter comes along?

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    But then there are the non-standard parts of dng files, the "maker notes" section.
    Picking apart the dng standard and low and behold it has at least one area that requires specific camera by camera support.
    The next issue is what revision of dng?
    The latest supports all sorts of lens correction goodies, but as far as I know, is not yet implemented by any camera manufacturer or raw processor for that matter.
    -bob
    HI Bob
    I quite agree, but at least the files can be read. For instance, Aperture reads .dng files - if Apple have specific camera information for that file (as they do for the M8 for instance) then they will apply it. If they don't, then they'll ignore it.

    It might not be perfect, but in effect it means that when a new camera comes out which uses DNG, then you'll be able to process raw files immediately with any converter which supports DNG properly (which, in this context, Aperture seems to do) (worth noting that as Godfrey has pointed out, Apple do have shortcomings with respect to linear DNG).

    When they DO add the camera support, you can apply that to existing files, or not, as you wish.

    Robert's question is pertinant, as I've found a very good 'interim' solution is to convert files to .DNG using Adobe's free dng converter, and then opening the subsequent file in Aperture - again, when camera specific support is added to Aperture it's picked up.

    Part of me feels that I'd rather do that anyway, as I'm quite suspicious about the future of camera specific RAW files.

    Wouldn't it be nice to just use jpg!

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Jono,
    That appears to be the solution for the moment.
    Thanks for the advice....if I start to hate the IQ,
    now I can blame you......
    Your other post are stimulating to say the least.
    Thanks again..... Don

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    But then there are the non-standard parts of dng files, the "maker notes" section.
    Picking apart the dng standard and low and behold it has at least one area that requires specific camera by camera support.
    The next issue is what revision of dng?
    The latest supports all sorts of lens correction goodies, but as far as I know, is not yet implemented by any camera manufacturer or raw processor for that matter.
    Camera Raw/DNG Converter v5.4 and Lightroom v2.4 are both supporting DNG Specification v1.3 right now. ...

    Since this new specification is only months old at most, I expect it will take other vendors a short while at least to incorporate the changes it includes.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Thanks Robert - but they always do such a bad job with 4/3 sensors (this is just my humble opinion).
    Which, needless to say really, I completely disagree with.

    I've tested every RAW processor with every camera I use and I find I get the same or very similar results out of all of them with suitable understanding and skill applied. My results are shown in the photos I post, that's the evidence supporting my opinion.

    I just wish that all these companies would use dng files (As Leica did with the M8 ricoh do) then we wouldn't have to have this struggle each time there's a new camera.
    Pentax has done so since the K10D also.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    HI There Don
    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Jono,
    That appears to be the solution for the moment.
    Thanks for the advice....if I start to hate the IQ,
    now I can blame you......
    Be my guest . . . as long as you don't know where I live I'll be okay

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Your other post are stimulating to say the least.
    Thanks again..... Don
    Hmm - is that meant to be a compliment - if so, thank you , I'm afraid some people are finding them irritating

    Truth is that I like taking pictures - I don't really like doing PP. I made a pact with myself that I would never again buy a camera not supported by Aperture . . . I'm not sure what went wrong

    I seem to have made a concession for Capture One for those other cameras - I like the way the batch processing works, just not the requirement for having to DO batch processing!

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Which, needless to say really, I completely disagree with.
    Of course

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Pentax has done so since the K10D also.
    There ARE lots of tempting things about Pentax aren't there - the K7 is a nice looking camera.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    As far as I understand it (Godfrey might correct me here ), the answer is:

    1. If they are linear DNG then Adobe is doing the demosaic, so YES (they will still be bad)
    So what you're saying is that in your opinion Adobe's demosaic algorithm is deficient?

    How do you tell this? What measurement methodology are you using?

    In my opinion, having evaluated ten or twelve different RAW converters over the past several years, while all demosaic algorithms are not equal the range of variation is indeed pretty small in practical terms. Other parts of the rendering process end up making a bigger difference in the quality of the final image.

    2. If they are not linear DNG then Adobe isn't so the answer is NO. (they will be as good as the other converter).
    At its base, DNG is simply an alternative and standardized way for the RAW data file to be structured and written to disk. It is a container format, specialized from TIFF. Any application that knows how to read the data it contains will be able to process the data with any algorithm that is preferred, up to the limit of the application's support for the types of data that are contained.

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    Re: Raw workflow with the E-P1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I've tested every RAW processor with every camera I use and I find I get the same or very similar results out of all of them with suitable understanding and skill applied. My results are shown in the photos I post, that's the evidence supporting my opinion.
    .
    The trouble is that every month there is a new iteration of one of the major raw converters, and each time that happens things change.

    Added to which we don't all have as much understanding and skill as you do (I certainly don't).
    We don't all take the same sort of subjects.
    We don't all like the same kind of results (for instance I hate smudgy detail, but I never mind noise much).

    You don't post all your pictures with different converters (or if you do I haven't seen it), so, at best the evidence is very circumstantial, and really only relevant to yourself . . . . which is fab. But your opinion is still only an opinion and probably worth almost as little as mine.

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