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Thread: E-P1 & Jagged edges

  1. #1
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Ok, so there's no excuse now. I know I've complained a lot about the E-P1's jpegs having lots of noise and being hard to post process with no deterioration...but now I'm doing tests with RAW (using Lightzone) and I see the benefit (and extra work and disk space), but I see a LOT of jagged edges! What gives?! Is there a way around this?! I'm starting to see that you need a lot of work to get a simple baseline E-P1 image ready for true post processing.I really hope that I'm the one who is doing something wrong.

  2. #2
    AngryCorgi
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Is there a way around this?!
    Shoot JPEG.

    The JPEG engine performs distortion correction, CA reduction, anti-aliasing and chroma-NR (even with NR set to "off"). The physical AA filter is very light, so there are going to be jagged edges in the RAW files. I suggest you shoot JPEG or look into purchasing an AA filter plugin for PS.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    The jpegs on the E-P1 are so bad that they've made me try RAW after 2 years of shoot only jpeg.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCorgi View Post
    Shoot JPEG.

    The JPEG engine performs distortion correction, CA reduction, anti-aliasing and chroma-NR (even with NR set to "off").
    only with the standard lenses (maybe not even all the regular 4/3rds line up either)

    The physical AA filter is very light, so there are going to be jagged edges in the RAW files.
    good point ... in my glee at the detail I'd overlooked that

    but Rawfa ... these jaggies ... really ... is it worse than a 20D or something?

    I hope you're not comparing it to a full frame camera like a 5D? (and still you've not posted a 100% sample of what it is you think is bad and how some other camera would do better).

    I see you have a blog, why not do some posting to it showing examples? You'll find heaps of such on mine ...

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    I'm comparing these jaggies to the Nikon P6000, the Pana LX3, and mainly to the DP1 (this is something I've never seen on the DP1). I'll get an example to show you guys.

  6. #6
    nei1
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Film is much easier Rawfa and much much better quality and much much much more satisfying,best to you from down the coast.......Neil.
    apart from that they"re much of a muchness

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Rafa, Lightzone doesn't support the E-P1 yet.

    Cheers

    Brian

  8. #8
    AngryCorgi
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    You can use the crap Olympus Master software. It does the same software-AA work the camera does. Its also ridiculously slow and forces the chroma NR and distortion correction (in addition to the forced AA). I use RPP and love the results.

    If you don't like the RAW results then don't buy an M8 under any circumstance! It has NO physical AA filter at all. The GH1 and G1 have light AA filters too, but the in-camera AA software does not apply as strong of an effect, so you can occasionally see jaggies in JPEGs with the pannys. The RAW file from a GH1/G1 and an E-P1 look almost identical, though.

    To be honest, I don't get your gripe. To raise per-pixel sharpness, you have to remove/reduce the effect of the physical AA filter, which removes jaggies, but creates an all-over smoothing effect that robs sharpness. This is just how it is. There is no magical way to beat this give/take without selectively applying a filter to do the job to only certain sections of a photo.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Rafa, Lightzone doesn't support the E-P1 yet.

    Cheers

    Brian
    That is weird because I was able to open the E-P1 raw files in a sec there.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I'm comparing these jaggies to the Nikon P6000, the Pana LX3, and mainly to the DP1 (this is something I've never seen on the DP1). I'll get an example to show you guys.
    Are you kidding?! The DP1 has the worst jaggies I have ever seen! On any camera!

    Shoot RAW, not JPEG, and use (and I know it's horrible but for now it's the only option that does the job) the included Oly software until Capture One or LR handle Pen files and their associated lens data and other shooting info.

    Weak AA filters mean more detail and therefore less sharpening, but they will appear to produce some less desirable results when viewed 100% and not properly RAW developed.

    Tim

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Are you kidding?! The DP1 has the worst jaggies I have ever seen! On any camera!

    Tim
    If you're serious I think your DP1 was faulty.

  12. #12
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    If you're serious I think your DP1 was faulty.
    Nope, pretty much everyone who had one saw this problem and a number of forums discussed it.

    It's caused by the fact that though the files look amazing at 100% on screen most of the time, that's because you're looking at them in 4.8mp mode. If you upres them so as to play on the playing field to which they lay claim , namely 14.8mp, then all rounded edges display the most obvious and unpleasant jaggies. And they show in prints.

    There are a zillion threads about this but the following one has plenty of examples and discussions on various upres techniques and the upshot is that the effect is clearly there and there is no piece of software known to mankind that can get your 4 and a bit mp files to 14 and a bit without jagging curved edges!

    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...omparison.html

    Tim

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Ok, but I'm talking about the original resolution here, not some upsized version.

  14. #14
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Ok, but I'm talking about the original resolution here, not some upsized version.
    Yup, I get that Rafa, that's why I was showing you the thread. Try this: take the Pen files that are giving you jagged edges, downres them to 4.8mp then look at them at 100% on screen! You have to compare apples to apples!

    Seriously, the Pen has issues, for sure, but jaggies is not in any practical sense one of them. In fact the more I use it the more I see that a lot of the things that look like faults are actually quite interesting design decisions. For example the fact that the files don't clip to black in shadow areas means that there appears to be more noise in the shadows but in fact it is just giving us the option to clip it to black ourselves, or keep some shadow detail.

    I am a fan of the DP1 and have used big enlargements from it as exhibition pieces, but only of certain subjects: anything with a curve is out!

    Best

    Tim

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Ok, but I'm talking about the original resolution here, not some upsized version.
    That's the problem I have with the DP1 ... from what I understand, the images are beautiful but at 2640 x 1760 its only marginally bigger than my ancient (in digital world terms) Coolpix 5000 (which is 2560 x 1920). That produces very nice to look at on print images up to about A4 while examination on the screen leaves a little to be desired at 100%.

    At that point on the curve 2700dpi scans of 35mm negative produced nicer files than the Coolpix did even from RAW

    from this overview


    100% view of 35mm


    100% view of Coolpix


    more recent testing I did have Canon 10D (at 3072 x 2048 pixels) exceeding what I can get from any scans of 35mm film.

    All this leaves the DP1 (in my opinion) a little out in the cold with its slightly larger than 4/3rds *(20.7 x 13.8 mm sensor VS 18 x 13.5mm) yeilding significantly lower sized files than (say) a G1 or E-P1.

    So if your target print size is A4 then I would say that the Foveon Sensor kicks butt and gives beautiful images ... but if you go larger (or crop at all) then the more modern cameras yield advantages not found in the DP-1 strategy (which is pixel limited).

    Before one gets too critical of bayer array, consider that 4 colour press images are also made up of an array of offset dyes not so dissimilar and relies on the processing system of the human vision to seem as a colour image. Some are quite good, so the methods can't be dismissed as fully flawed.

    just my 2cents at lunch time :-)

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    I don't print photos and when I do it's just small regular size. But that is a totally separate matter. The degradation of IQ by upsizing is not at all what is being debated here.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I don't print photos and when I do it's just small regular size. But that is a totally separate matter. The degradation of IQ by upsizing is not at all what is being debated here.
    What is the point, Rafa?

  18. #18
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    interesting ... so if you don't print them, then you'll be downsizing them. In which case I think I understand your issue

    I have noticed that even downsizing from 2560 pixels that the images from the CP5000 look a little 'coarse' compared to my 10D or G1 images ...

    so I'm interested to see how equally downsized images form a DP1 can be noticably different to those from a G1 or the E-P1 Oly

  19. #19
    AngryCorgi
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Look at imaging-resource's sample from the DP1 (here) and examine the light reflection on the metal "tee" on the salt grinder. If that's not an example of a jagged edge, I don't know what is. You really have to examine areas of high contrast to see them, but they appear all over if you pay attention.

    The foveon sensor may not need an AA filter for medium-contrast or low-contrast edges, but the high-contrast areas are still subject to the flaw.

  20. #20
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 & Jagged edges

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    I don't print photos and when I do it's just small regular size. But that is a totally separate matter. The degradation of IQ by upsizing is not at all what is being debated here.
    OK, I get you now: if you're not printing then the G1 files are indeed lovely at onscreen sizes up to their native resolution... the jaggies have only appeared for me on upres. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to upres well to the territory that Sigma claims as the 'real' mp count.

    If I were shooting only for screen display I'd use teh DP1 a lot more though because of that lovely silky luminance its files have!

    Best

    Tim

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